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Featured Jesus as Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    There is an expression 'in that day' used repeatedly by Zechariah, lsaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and other prophets, which points to the day of Christ's judgement upon the earth.

    For example, Ezekiel 38:19. 'For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have l spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;'

    Was Baha'ullah alive when the land of Israel existed? Or was it (re)established well after his lifetime?
     
  2. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I agree that Earth is for the living ( and because of the Resurrection the dead will live again - Acts 24:15 )
    I agree that Heaven is for those who have passed on ->The saints / holy ones - Daniel 7:18; Luke 22:28-30.
    I agree that Heaven is a spirit world where God and the angels live and where some people will be resurrected.
    Those ' some ' people are the ones who have that first or earlier resurrection as per Revelation 20:6; 2:10
    If ' death ' (itself) signifies 'resurrection and continuation' of life there would be No need for the Bible or Jesus.
    Jesus never taught the dead are still living. ALL the resurrections Jesus performed brought the dead back to life.
    If those dead people were Not really dead but just having a continuation of life what Jesus did served No purpose.
    The humble meek people start inheriting the Earth at Jesus' coming *Glory Time* of Matthew 25:31-33,37.
    They are the 'great crowd' of living people mentioned at Revelation 7:9; Revelation 7:14.
    The dead who are called to heavenly life will be there in Heaven to govern over Earth - Revelation 5:9-10
    The rest of dead mankind (John 3:13) can have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on Earth just as Jesus restored dead people back to live life on Earth.
    While on Earth Jesus was then giving us a preview, a sample, a coming attraction of what resurrections he will be performing during his thousand-year reign over Earth for the meek who will inherit the Earth.
    Humble meek people like those of Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39 who have Not yet been resurrected.
    This includes dead King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34; Ezekiel 34:24-25 who will be Prince on Earth.
    During Christ's reign over Earth is when ALL families of Earth will be blessed and ALL nations of Earth will be blessed.
    Blessed with God's promised benefit found at Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18.
    And during Jesus reign over Earth then even 'enemy death ' will be No more on Earth.
    - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8; Isaiah 35th chapter.
     
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  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I think Jesus could agree with your example: Please see Matthew 4:6-7.
    Jesus showed confidence misplaced because it flowed was from an unjustified faith-based belief from 'Satan'.
    Such misplaced confidence ( jump off and land safely ) would wrongly be tempting God - Deuteronomy 6:16
    Of course the Bible is a book, and it does make claims.
    Jesus required reasons to believe and Jesus used the reasons found in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
    'Not believe on faith?' ( faith/confidence, or credulity 'blind faith')
    I have faith/confidence in Scripture just as Jesus had faith/confidence in Scripture.
    Give one example of what should I Not believe about what Jesus taught __________
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I don't find that Jesus 'set reason aside' but Jesus logically reasoned on the old Hebrew Scriptures for us.

    In Scripture we can reason about these last days of badness on Earth by reading 2 Timothy 3:1-5; 2 Timothy 3:13.
    This can lead us to reason on 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 that we are nearing the time when the powers that be will be giving mankind a false hope by saying, " Peace and Security..." but that rosy saying will just prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation. So, we know then as the old adage says, " It is darkest before the dawn."
    Things will be getting worse before they get better. MAN has MAN's Doom-and-Gloom Doom's Day Clock set close to the dark midnight hour, but the Bible has God's Clock, so to speak, which will usher in a great new dawning.
    The starting or dawning of a brand new Millennium-Long Day of Christ governing over Earth for a thousand years.
    Sure, it is just with the mind's eye, so to speak, that we can now see that thousand years of peace coming.
    But today's global news surrounding us gives us evidence that what Jesus taught is true - Luke 21:11.
    And it is Jesus, as Prince of Peace, who will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But it does not rule out: 2a: to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of
    Faith is required because what I am aware of the truth of and convinced and certain of is not observable.
    I know because I have faith. I also know because I have evidence. I would never believe on faith alone.
    Anything can be believed on faith but that does not mean that everything that is believed on faith is false.
    Some things that are believed on faith can be true. In other words, just because something is believed on faith that does not mean it is automatically false. Logically speaking, a belief can be true or false, and it is up to us to look at the evidence in order to determine if it is true or false.
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    The nation of Israel was established in 1948, so the land around what is called Israel today was not a nation until then.

    The 'land of Israel' in the Bible refers to the geographic area around what is now called Israel. It does not refer to the nation of Israel.

    The expression "Land of Israel" is first used in a later book, 1 Samuel 13:19. It is defined in detail in the exilic Book of Ezekiel as a land where both the twelve tribes and the "strangers in (their) midst", can claim inheritance.

    Land of Israel - Wikipedia

    Many of the biblical prophecies were fulfilled in the land of Israel. For example:, the following prophecies are all explained in the book entitled Thief in the Night.

    It had been prophesied that when the Messiah came, the desert would blossom as the rose. Isaiah foretold clearly:

    "The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." (Isaiah 35:1)

    It is in the next verse of this prophecy that Isaiah says that when this happens, Carmel and Sharon shall see the Glory of the Lord.

    “It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2)

    Carmel and Sharon had seen the appearance of Bahá'u'lláh, the Glory of the Lord, but had the desert blossomed as the rose? My study revealed that the followers of Bahá'u'lláh came from as far away as his native land even while he was yet in prison. They knew that Bahá'u'lláh loved children, green fields, trees and flowers. They were heavyhearted because of the nine years he had to spend in the prison-city surrounded by the sandy plain and the fetid atmosphere of that 'foul city'. Bahá'u'lláh's followers brought flowers and plants from Persia, and his son, Abdu'l-Bahá planted a lovely garden nearby. An eye-witness to the events of those days has written: "These wonderful pilgrims! How they came on that long toilsome journey on foot, braving numberless dangers, malignant human enemies and bad weather, and through all the fatigue, carrying, as the greatest treasure, some plant for their adored one's garden. Often the only water, which the devoted pilgrims so urgently needed for themselves, was given to the plant." The Chosen Highway, Lady Blomfield, p. 96.

    I made a personal visit to that garden on the island of Na'mayn outside the city of Akká. The land is arid, thirsting for water; yet, in the midst of this desert grows a magnificent garden. Laurence Oliphant refers to it in his book on Israel. He says: "This island (garden), which is about two hundred yards long by scarcely a hundred wide, is all laid out in flower-beds and planted with ornamental shrubs and with fruit-trees. Coming upon it suddenly it is like a scene in fairy land." Haifa, or Life in Modern Palestine, Lawrence Oliphant, 1887, pp. 103-104.

    In another place, Oliphant says of this garden: "The stream is fringed with weeping willows, and the spot, with its wealth of water, its thick shade, and air fragrant with jasmine and orange blossoms, forms an ideal retreat from the heats of summer. The sights and sounds are all suggestive of languor... The senses are lulled by the sounds of murmuring water, the odours of fragrant plants, the flickering shadows of foliage, or the gorgeous tints of flowers..." Haifa, or Life in Modern Palestine, Lawrence Oliphant,1887, p. 104.

    From the sandy plain of Akká, I drove to the rocky side of Mount Carmel. There on the side of this sacred mountain, were lovely gardens, walks and paths of magnificent beauty virtually carved out of the rock. Even while I was flying from Rome en route to the Holy Land, the beauty of this spot was called to my attention. I was given a folder from the British European Airways. On the cover was a picture of the entrance to the gardens of the Bahá'í Faith on Mount Carmel. The folder described it as: "The most beautiful spot in the Middle East."

    Between the two great Bahá'í gardens that go halfway up the mountainside, runs a broad highway. Through the gates leading from this highway stream pilgrims and visitors from all parts of the world. They come with hearts full of joy and gladness, and the sound of their beautiful chanting can be heard on that mountainside. This, too, was foreseen by Isaiah:

    "And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

    "And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).

    Surrounding these beautiful Shrines and gardens are orange, lemon and pomegranate trees. Beautiful coloured paths of red and white stone wind through multi-coloured flowers, graceful lawns and dark green hedges. Wherever the feet of Bahá'u'lláh walked can be found these lovely gardens.

    The Shrine of Bahá'u'lláh, the sanctuary where he is buried, is a place of great beauty and peace. It lies in the centre of a giant circle with many walks leading to it. This land was once an arid desert, but now it blossoms out in splendour. It is perfumed by rose, hyacinth, jasmine and geranium. Smooth white stones from the Sea of Galilee make a pathway directly to the door of his Shrine. Three hills carpeted in crimson shelter his sanctuary from wind and storm. These sacred Shrines are surrounded by cedars of Lebanon, fir trees, pine trees, cypress, box, and olive trees.

    Isaiah had foretold: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious." (Isaiah 11:10)

    In still another chapter, Isaiah prophesies: "Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee." (Isaiah 60:1)

    And a few verses later he foresees the following: "The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious." (Isaiah 60:13)

    Bahá'u'lláh's name means 'the Glory of the Lord'. The place of his 'rest' had been made glorious, as well as the place where his feet had walked.

    Between the two great Bahá'í gardens that go halfway up the mountainside, runs a broad highway. Through the gates leading from this highway stream pilgrims and visitors from all parts of the world. They come with hearts full of joy and gladness, and the sound of their beautiful chanting can be heard on that mountainside. This, too, was foreseen by Isaiah:

    "And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

    "And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).

    From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

    Above Haifa, Israel stands Mt. Carmel, and that is where the Baha’i World Centre is located.

     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    You cannot call it the 'land of Israel' when lsrael is not occupying the land, lMO.

    I've also visited lsrael on two occasions, and from reading accounts l'm aware that the land has been transformed since it was taken from the Turks in the First World War. A satellite view of Israel today shows it to be a green oasis in the midst of a desert.

    I do not accept, however, that the prophecies you have applied to Baha'ullah have anything to do with him. The whole purpose of the New Testament is to reveal the Messiah that the Hebrew scriptures had prophesied. And in reading the New Testament l find no place for a second Messiah.
     
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  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    To me it's ' national ' Israel that was established in 1948, but ' spiritual Israel ' was established at Pentecost.
    The Israel of God since Pentecost is No longer national/fleshly Israel, but now a 'spiritual nation'. - 1 Peter 2:9,5
    A spiritual nation that is Not located on Earth and has No borders nor boundaries found on any map.
    As Galatians 4:26 says it is now ' Jerusalem above ' that is now mother, now the seat of government.
    When Messiah comes again, then Earth will become a beautiful paradisical Earth as seen in Isaiah 35th chapter.
    First, as 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 forewarns us, when the powers that be will be saying, " Peace and Security....." but that ROSY saying will prove to be the 'final signal' before the outbreak of the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9.
    Then, Jesus will take the action described at Isaiah 11:4 and what John describes at Revelation 19:14-15.
     
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    It was the land of Israel by definition.

    The expression "Land of Israel" is first used in a later book, 1 Samuel 13:19. It is defined in detail in the exilic Book of Ezekiel as a land where both the twelve tribes and the "strangers in (their) midst", can claim inheritance.
    Land of Israel - Wikipedia

    What the land is 'called' is unrelated to who is presently inhabiting the land. Israel was the land that the Jews would return to when the times of the gentiles were fulfilled and that happened in 1844, almost to date when the Bab appeared and announced the coming of Baha'u'llah.

    An edict of toleration is a declaration, made by a government or ruler and states, that members of a given religion will not be persecuted for engaging in their religious practices and traditions. The edict implies tacit acceptance of the religion rather than its endorsement by the ruling power.
    Edict of toleration - Wikipedia

    On 21 March 1844, the Sublime Porte of the Ottoman Empire submitted a note to the British and French embassies promising to cease the executions of apostates from Islam.[1] In the Baháʼí Faith, this is known as the Edict of Toleration and has a prophetic significance.
    Edict of Toleration (1844) - Wikipedia

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    Simply put, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment. Thus at the hour of their return the “times of the Gentiles”was fulfilled.

    Jews started returning to their homeland in 1844, not in 1948 when the Jewish state was established.
    The land of Israel was transformed in fulfillment of the Isaiah prophecies and those prophecies were clearly fulfilled as the result of the coming of Baha'u'llah. Now that the desert is blossoming and all the other prophecies have been fulfilled they cannot be fulfilled a second time.

    "The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose." (Isaiah 35:1)

    “It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing: the glory of Lebanon shall be given unto it, the excellency of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of the LORD, and the excellency of our God.” (Isaiah 35:2)

    "The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the fir tree, the pine tree, and the box together, to beautify the place of my sanctuary; and I will make the place of my feet glorious." (Isaiah 60:13)

    No, those prophecies do not refer to Jesus because Jesus never promised to return ti earth, not once in the New Testament, and in fact, Jesus said His work was finished here and he was no more on the world.

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
    Jesus was the Messiah but not the Messiah of the latter days. The Old Testament predicts the coming of a Messiah who would fulfill the messianic prophecies and the New Testament predicts the return of Christ. Clearly, the return of Christ cannot be Jesus since Jesus said His work was finished here and He was 'no more' in the world.

    You just assume the entire Bible is about Jesus because that is what Christianity teaches, but that is called confirmation bias. The Bible prophesied the coming of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

    Christians keep telling me that the Bab and Baha’u’llah were not predicted in the Bible, but that is not true at all. Even the New Testament mentions the coming of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. What do you think the Day of the Lord is? It is the day of woe (Ez. 30:1-3). The first woe was Jesus, the second woe was Muhammad, and the third woe was the Bab, and Baha'u'llah appeared 'quickly' after that.. Baha'u'llah was the seventh angel referred to in Rev. 11:15.

    Rev. 11:14 says “the third woe cometh quickly” because there was only nine years between the Revelations of the Bab and Bab and Baha’u’llah.

    “The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.” (Rev. 11:14) The first woe is the appearance of the Prophet, Muhammad, the son of ‘Abdu’lláh—peace be upon Him! The second woe is that of the Báb—to Him be glory and praise! The third woe is the great day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts and the radiance of the Beauty of the Promised One. The explanation of this subject, woe, is mentioned in the thirtieth chapter of Ezekiel, where it is said: “The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying, Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day! For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near.” (Ez. 30:1-3)

    Therefore, it is certain that the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant. That is why it is said, “The second woe is past; behold the third woe cometh quickly!” This third woe is the day of the manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh, the day of God; and it is near to the day of the appearance of the Báb.

    “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.” (Rev. 11:15).”

    “The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused. In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of the Prophets.”

    Some Answered Questions, pp. 56-57
     
    #389 Trailblazer, Sep 18, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    How can you decribe Jesus as 'the first woe'? Jesus Christ came as the glory of God, and as 'good news' to the faithful.

    And where do we find Muhammad mentioned in scripture? Why do we not hear mention of Bab and Baha'ullah by Paul, who is chosen by Jesus to be apostle to the Gentiles?

    Is Jesus Christ not king of heaven and earth? If his kingdom is everlasting, why is he being dethroned and replaced by other 'christs'?
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Jesus was the Son of God, Baha'u'llah was the Glory of God.
    Jesus was the good news for the faithful, but He was not good news for the ignorant men who rejected Him.

    Jesus was the first woe because the day of woe is the day of the Lord; for in that day woe is for the neglectful, woe is for the sinners, woe is for the ignorant.

    Ezekiel 30 King James Version

    30 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,
    2 Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Howl ye, Woe worth the day!
    3 For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

    The Bible scriptures are not 'about' the Messengers of God that had not come yet, although these Messengers were prophesied to come in the Bible.
    Nobody is trying to replace Christ. His kingdom is everlasting, but it is not an earthly kingdom. The kingdom of God that Baha'u'llah ushered in was an earthly kingdom (Matthew 6:9-13). The following verse in Luke refers to Christ who was the Son of God.

    Luke 1:32 King James Version (KJV)

    32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:


    “The Throne upon which He sat is the Eternal Throne from which Christ reigns for ever, a heavenly throne, not an earthly one, for the things of earth pass away but heavenly things pass not away. He re-interpreted and completed the Law of Moses and fulfilled the Law of the Prophets. His word conquered the East and the West. His Kingdom is everlasting. He exalted those Jews who recognized Him. They were men and women of humble birth, but contact with Him made them great and gave them everlasting dignity. The animals who were to live with one another signified the different sects and races, who, once having been at war, were now to dwell in love and charity, drinking together the water of life from Christ the Eternal Spring.”
    Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 56


    From: THE TRUE MEANING OF THE PROPHECIES CONCERNING THE COMING OF CHRIST
     
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  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I read at Rev. 22:20 that we are ALL invited to pray the invitation for Jesus to come !
    Two (2) main things would have to happen before the coming of Christ's Glory Time - Matthew 25:31-33
    1) The good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44) would be proclaimed world wide - Matthew 24:14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8
    We are now at that 'final phase' with the international declaring about God's kingdom aka government.
    2) This 'final phase' means we are nearing the 'final signal' found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 when the powers that be will be saying, " Peace and Security..." but that ROSY saying will prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus comes to usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.
    Jesus comes and brings healing to earth's nations as described at Revelation 22:2; Isaiah 33:24; Isaiah 35th chapter.
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Unless Jesus lied or the Bible is in error Jesus is never coming back to earth because His work was finished here.

    John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

    John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    Jesus never claimed to be a king, and He never said he was coming to rule.

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


    These two verses in John 18 completely negate that Jesus is the King of this world or that Jesus will ever come to this world to rule it, and they fit perfectly together with John 17:4 and John 17:11. Jesus came into this world to bear witness unto the truth about God. He did that so there is no more reason for Jesus to come back to this world again. That is why Jesus said “I am no more in the world.”

    Why do Christians read the rest of the Bible and believe it is all true and yet they completely disregard what Jesus said in John? If the verses above are incorrect there is no reason to believe that anything else in the New Testament is correct.

    I know that Christians want Jesus to come back to earth but "wanting" is not going to make Jesus come back to earth. Jesus never promised to come back to earth, not even once in the New Testament. All of what Christians believe is based upon a misinterpretation of verses that refer to the return of Christ. The return of Christ was never slated by God to be the same man Jesus that walked the earth 2000 years ago, it was slated to be another man with a new name.

    Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

    Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Revelation 3:12-13 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


    The new name means that the return of Christ would be another man. Why would Jesus change his name if He wanted people to know He was Jesus? Sadly, Christians do not bother to think about what these verses actually mean -- what the Spirit saith unto the churches -- yet they have completely disregarded what the Spirit said because they STILL believe that the same Jesus is going to come down from heaven on the clouds. Who was the Son of man who was coming in the clouds? Jesus never said it was Him.

    Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?
     
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  14. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Ow?

    Strange. To me, it just seems like intellectually honest to say "we don't know" when we don't know.

    How reasonable is it to say anything else?
     
  15. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    You aren't actually addressing the points I made nor are you answering the question I asked.
    Instead, you are just repeating that which has already been addressed - and borderlining preaching.

    That "miracles" occur.
     
  16. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    You are again just preaching.

    Answer my question: is there anything that you could NOT believe "on faith"?
     
  17. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    :hugehug:
    That is what I can offer, with this. :praying:

    Regards Tony
     
  18. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Daniel and Revelation speak of the Duration of the Message of Muhammad being 1260 years. It is mentioned in the Bible as a Time, Times and Half a time which = 3 1/2 years = 42months = 1260 Days and each day for a year = 1260 years.

    The Two witnesses of Revelation are Muhammad and Ali who would give prophecy for 1260 years.

    The beast is Islam, 7 kingdom and 10 rulers.

    Makes sense, it is in the Bible, as Islam had control over the Holy land for a long time.

    AH1260 of the Islamic calander is AD1844 and in that very year the Edict of toleration paved the way for the Jews to return to Israel. William Miller the SDA founder had worked out the year, but still held to a material appearance and unfortunately did not know about the Islamic calander connection.

    This is a great, but massive topic.

    Regards Tony
     
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  19. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Veteran Member

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    Except that it does.
    To be aware of factuality, one requires facts. Not mere beliefs and unsupported claims.

    Or otherwise verifiable in whatever way.

    In short: there is no evidence.

    Knowledge is demonstrable. And verifiable.
    Religious beliefs are neither.

    That's not the point.
    The point is that anything can be believed on faith.
    But not anything can be believed on evidence.

    You can believe on faith that undetectable graviton pixies are regulating gravity. But you can not believe that on evidence - because there is no evidence.

    What this means, is that faith is NOT a pathway to truth.

    Sure. Undetectable graviton fairies could be the regulators of gravity. It's not like you can prove otherwise.

    But what use does such a statement have? Nothing.
    It's entirely meaningless and worthless.

    My standard for believing stuff is quite a bit higher then "well, it could be true cause you can't show it to be false".


    Again, not the point.
    The point is that on faith, you can believe anything. True or false.
    And that without any way to distinguish true beliefs from false beliefs.


    The actual point is that on faith, you can't find out if it's actually true or false.


    And to find out which it is, one requires evidence and a way to test the belief against observable reality.
    Which is a thing religious claims completely fail in.

    You require faith, because you have no evidence.

    Undetectable graviton pixies can only be believed on faith. It can't be believed on evidence.
    General relativity can be believed on evidence. And thus does not require any "faith".


    The point. You keep missing it.


    Faith is not a pathway to truth.
    Faith is gullibility. It's what you need to believe something which you hope to be true - and have no way to find out if it actually is true.
     
  20. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 5:13 says, 'And every creature that is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard l saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.'

    Christ Jesus is recognised as the Lamb who has power both in heaven and on earth. Moreover, his power is everlasting, not restricted to a season.

    If you read all of Revelation 5, there can be no doubt that 'in the midst' of the throne in heaven is the Lamb, and that it's the Lamb who is called 'the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David'.
     
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