Jesus as Christ

[Altfish]

The traditional dating for Mark's Gospel is before 56 CE, since Luke is dated between 56-60 CE. Matthew could be any time after 50 CE but before 70 CE. John's Gospel is later, maybe 90-100 CE.

If these traditional dates are true then it means the first record, Mark, was written down within 20 years of the crucifixion of Jesus. This means most of the witnesses would still be alive.

OK, I'll give you 20-years after the crucifixion.
If you interview (say) a dozen eye-witnesses 20-years after an event you will get 12 different stories. Conflicting stories, incorrect stories, biased stories.

Many Jews living at the time of Roman occupation believed, based on the Jewish understanding of scripture, that the coming of the Messiah was imminent. Today, two thousand years later, Torah Jews continue to deny that Jesus is the Messiah, but, as I mentioned before, it creates problems in coherence. For instance, in Micah 5:2 it says, 'But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.' Torah Jews continue to believe that this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Yet, if Jesus is the Messiah it has already been fulfilled, and cannot be fulfilled a second time! This means that Torah Jews are going to be surprised when their Messiah comes from heaven and not from the crib.

You are being somewhat ingenuous when you say, "Torah Jews continue to deny that Jesus is the Messiah" - you can remove the word 'Torah' and it is still true. That is the critical difference between Jews and Christians.
That's why Jews don't read/accept the New Testament

 

[Subduction Zone]

My definition of proof is the same as God’s definition concerning faith and salvation.

God does not appear to have such a definition. You are once again conflating the claim and the evidence. You have no "proof", you only have very poor evidence. Abusing the Bible will not help you.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have already stated that traditional dating by scholars (which is not mine!) places the synoptic Gospels much closer in time to the crucifixion. This makes absolute sense when one looks at the content of the Gospels, which make no mention of the great calamity of the times, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (70 CE). The Jewish wars began in 66 CE, so it is highly likely that the three synoptic Gospels were completed before the wars began. The book of Acts provides a chronological account of the years between the Ascension and Paul's imprisonment in Rome, around 61 CE.

And it is still far too long when it comes to word of mouth stories. You are probably too young to remember the death of Elvis. Even in this time of stories that one can check rather easily there were countless stories of him after he died, and he was just a pop singer. Jesus probably was a real person. I am not a mythicist, But legends about him appear to have formed in the time since he died and they were written down in words.

By the way one does not have to lie to invent a myth. People have bad memories. People's memories, especially of cherished people can change after the fact. None of the Jesus stories are eyewitness testimony and even if it was eyewitness testimony is the worst, not the best, evidence in a court of law. It barely qualifies as evidence and people making such testimony are often stricken from the record when the judge realizes that they are unreliable.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I have already stated that traditional dating by scholars (which is not mine!) places the synoptic Gospels much closer in time to the crucifixion. This makes absolute sense when one looks at the content of the Gospels, which make no mention of the great calamity of the times, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple (70 CE). The Jewish wars began in 66 CE, so it is highly likely that the three synoptic Gospels were completed before the wars began. The book of Acts provides a chronological account of the years between the Ascension and Paul's imprisonment in Rome, around 61 CE.

Sorry, it only makes "sense" to you because you want the legend to be true. That is not a valid reason. You need much more than that. What makes you think that it is likely that all three synoptic
gospels were completed before the wars? And all that Acts gives you is an earliest date of completion. It does not give you a latest or even accurate date. At best it was written after 61 CE. Even a book written in 1999 CE was written after 61 CE.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Of course he was saying that he was not God. He made the difference between him and God clear. You are putting a very strange spin on that verse that you do not appear to be able to justify.

AS to your question what do you mean by "good". I am good by any reasonable definition. Why can't Jesus have been as good as I am?

The strange spin is yours especially when you ask the question comparing yourself to Jesus when He never sinned or deceit found in his mouth.
Jesus constantly asked people questions concerning Himself to bring out their faith. For example His question. Who do people say that I am ? And Peter answers correctly and Jesus says who revealed this to him. It’s the same today, revelation of who Jesus is comes from God.

“Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:13-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[Subduction Zone]

The strange spin is yours especially when you ask the question comparing yourself to Jesus when He never sinned or deceit found in his mouth.
Jesus constantly asked people questions concerning Himself to bring out their faith. For example His question. Who do people say that I am ? And Peter answers correctly and Jesus says who revealed this to him. It’s the same today, revelation of who Jesus is comes from God.

“Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:13-17‬ ‭ESV‬‬

You are conflating legendary Jesus with real Jesus. And I did not compare myself to him. You misunderstood the point. And thanks for another quote where Jesus says that he is not God. If I ask some about my father and I compliment him on it I am not claiming to be my father.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You would literally not accept any proof. Get real. If Jesus came down and put sugar in your coffee you would decide it wasn't enough evidence.

Sorry, but your behavior in evolution threads shows that you are merely describing yourself. Like many theists you do not appear to even understand the concept of evidence. Give me reliable evidence and I will change my mind. If you just post nonsense I will explain to you why it is nonsense.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Please, verses taken out of context are not "prophesies". That was one of the first acts of apologists. When it was clear that Jesus failed the Messianic prophecies they made up their own. The "Suffering Servant" was Israel if you read it in context. You are trying to change the meaning after the fact. That only demonstrates that one can abuse the Bible. It is not evidence for Jesus.

Oh my. Do you not know that Israel was both an individual and a nation? Jesus is the head of the body. The one body is made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[ElishaElijah]

God does not appear to have such a definition. You are once again conflating the claim and the evidence. You have no "proof", you only have very poor evidence. Abusing the Bible will not help you.

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:13-14‬ ‭ESV‬‬

 

[Subduction Zone]

Oh my. Do you not know that Israel was both an individual and a nation? Jesus is the head of the body. The one body is made up of both Jews and Gentiles.

Sorry, that is after the fact spin. Nothing more.

 

[Subduction Zone]

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:13-14‬ ‭ESV‬‬

And what is that supposed to support?

 

[Redemptionsong]

OK, I'll give you 20-years after the crucifixion.
If you interview (say) a dozen eye-witnesses 20-years after an event you will get 12 different stories. Conflicting stories, incorrect stories, biased stories.


You are being somewhat ingenuous when you say, "Torah Jews continue to deny that Jesus is the Messiah" - you can remove the word 'Torah' and it is still true. That is the critical difference between Jews and Christians.
That's why Jews don't read/accept the New Testament

If you read the scriptures, you will know that the Holy Spirit brings the words of Jesus back to memory, so the witnesses themselves have a witness, the Holy Spirit. Add to this that many of the events recounted were not events that you easily forget. Would Mary have forgotten where Jesus was born, or who visited her at the house in Bethlehem. Would she not have remembered if an angel had made an appearance to her? Would she not have recalled the events of her son at a wedding, or crucified in Jerusalem? Think about what you are able to recall from intense moments in life.

It is not true to say that all Jews deny Christ, many do not, and from the time of Christ there have always been Jews in the Church. Paul specifically stated that the Church consisted of both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[ElishaElijah]

And what is that supposed to support?

Proof that you have eternal life

 

[Subduction Zone]

Proof that you have eternal life

Nope, that is only the claim. Once again, you need to learn what evidence is. The Bible cannot be evidence until it is demonstrated to be reliable. And quite the opposite has been shown to be the case for that. "Works for me" is not evidence much less proof.

 

[Altfish]

If you read the scriptures, you will know that the Holy Spirit brings the words of Jesus back to memory, so the witnesses themselves have a witness, the Holy Spirit. Add to this that many of the events recounted were not events that you easily forget. Would Mary have forgotten where Jesus was born, or who visited her at the house in Bethlehem. Would she not have remembered if an angel had made an appearance to her? Would she not have recalled the events of her son at a wedding, or crucified in Jerusalem? Think about what you are able to recall from intense moments in life.

It is not true to say that all Jews deny Christ, many do not, and from the time of Christ there have always been Jews in the Church. Paul specifically stated that the Church consisted of both Jews and Gentiles.

I have read many of the scriptures; but I don't buy into the Holy Spirit either and I don't believe that all these 'essences' are witnesses. To an atheist The Holy Spirit is another made up creature.

I didn't say that Jews deny Christ,; I said they do not accept that he is the promised messiah.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Nope, that is only the claim. Once again, you need to learn what evidence is. The Bible cannot be evidence until it is demonstrated to be reliable. And quite the opposite has been shown to be the case for that. "Works for me" is not evidence much less proof.

Your comment just shows you don’t have the guarantee of an inheritance. The proof I have is so that I know what I have, it’s not for you, you have to get your own proof and guarantee.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Your comment just shows you don’t have the guarantee of an inheritance.

Neither do you.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Neither do you.

I do

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do

That is a mere belief. One that you continually fail to properly support. I can believe that a magical cupcake farting unicorn will fly me to heaven after I did. That does not mean that it will happen.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I can believe that a magical cupcake farting unicorn will fly me to heaven after I did.

About what you have now, maybe a step up.