Brian2
Veteran Member
Imagine stopping the reading of the Bible at the end of the Tanakh. Only a Jew would do that.
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Imagine stopping the reading of the Bible at the end of the Tanakh. Only a Jew would do that.
Ok, thanks for clarification and sorry, I don't think he should have been faster. Also, the whole idea is difficult, because how could we know did he hurry, if he would not have hurried, it could have taken more than 3 days?
rosends
Well-Known Member
Do you know who the speaker is in that section, then? Who the first person pronouns represent?
rosends
Well-Known Member
No, Jews don't do that. But thanks for playing.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I may make a difference who the speaker is in the early section.
The variation in translations is quite large in places especially between a Jewish Tanakh and Christian OT translations.
The end of Isa 52 looks like God talking and then it seems to be a matter of opinion. It could be the Kings of chapter 52 or Isaiah and the Kings of ch 52.
rosends
Well-Known Member
For you will not depart in haste, ***** God speaks to the Jews through the prophet
Nor will you leave in flight; ***** same “you” – the nation of Jews
For the LORD is marching before you, ***** The prophet describes God’s relationship to Jews
The God of Israel is your rear guard.*****
“Indeed, My servant shall prosper, ***** God describes that same relationship as the Jews
Be exalted and raised to great heights. ***** Are his servant
Just as the many were appalled at him -- ***** the servant/him is described by God. The many (the
So marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, ***** other people of the world) looked at the Jews this way
His form, beyond human semblance—׃*****
Just so he shall startle many nations. ***** Also entire other nations will see him/servant this way
Kings shall be silenced because of him, *****
For they shall see what has not been told them, ***** Other kings will see what they can’t believe
Shall behold what they never have heard.”*****
“Who can believe what we have heard? ***** The kings speak, wondering about the unbelieveable
Upon whom has the arm of the LORD--a been revealed? ***** Asking about the state of the Jews
For he has grown, by His favor, like a tree crown, ***** the same subject – him/servant/Jews is described by
Like a tree trunk out of arid ground. ***** The same foreign kings who marvel at the situation
He had no form or beauty, that we should look at him: ***** the “we” is the kings who are being quoted
No charm, that we should find him pleasing. ***** The “him” is still the nation, the Jews, God’s servant
He was despised, shunned by men, ***** The kings realize how the Jews were shunned
A man of suffering, familiar with disease. ***** And how they suffered
As one who hid his face from us, ***** Like someone so ashamed he hid himself
He was despised, we held him of no account. ***** “we” (the foreign nations) considered him lowly
Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, ***** But the whole time, say the kings, he was suffering
Our suffering that he endured. ***** As a replacement for what we deserved to suffer
We accounted him plagued, ***** We just thought God was being mean to him
Smitten and afflicted by God;*****
But he was wounded because of our sins, ***** but it wasn’t mean-ness. It was God making him pay
Crushed because of our iniquities. ***** For what WE (foreign nations) did
He bore the chastisement that made us whole, ***** we stayed whole while and BECAUSE the Jews paid for it
And by his bruises we were healed. ***** And through the Jews’ suffering, the nations stayed well
We all went astray like sheep, ***** We (foreign nations) did bad things
Each going his own way;*****
And the LORD visited upon him ***** and God punished the Jews
The guilt of all of us.”*****
He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, ***** And yet the Jews didn’t complain
He did not open his mouth;*****
Like a sheep being led to slaughter,*****
Like a ewe, dumb before those who shear her,*****
He did not open his mouth.*****
By oppressive judgment he was taken away, ***** He was exiled, taken from his homeland
Who could describe his abode?*****
For he was cut off from the land of the living*****
Through the sin of my people, who deserved the punishment. ***** Because of us.
And his grave was set among the wicked, ***** even in death he was punished
And with the rich, in his death-*****
Though he had done no injustice ***** though he didn’t do wrong
And had spoken no falsehood.*****
But the LORD chose to crush him by disease, ***** God wanted to punish him in this world
That, if he made himself an offering for guilt, ***** so that if he bore it patiently
He might see offspring and have long life, ***** he would see his descendants flourish
And that through him the LORD’s purpose might prosper. ***** And his children carry out God’s plan
Out of his anguish he shall see it; ***** By being willing to suffer, the Jews will see
He shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion. ***** The fruits of devotion later
“My righteous servant makes the many righteous, ***** God, in 1st person, now describes the situation
It is their punishment that he bears; ***** the servant nation bears the foreign nations’ punishment
Assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion, ***** so he will earn a heck of a great reward
He shall receive the multitude as his spoil.*****
For he exposed himself to death*****
And was numbered among the sinners,*****
Whereas he bore the guilt of the many*****
And made intercession for sinners.” ***** The Jews suffered on behalf of others and saved them.
Nor will you leave in flight; ***** same “you” – the nation of Jews
For the LORD is marching before you, ***** The prophet describes God’s relationship to Jews
The God of Israel is your rear guard.*****
“Indeed, My servant shall prosper, ***** God describes that same relationship as the Jews
Be exalted and raised to great heights. ***** Are his servant
Just as the many were appalled at him -- ***** the servant/him is described by God. The many (the
So marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, ***** other people of the world) looked at the Jews this way
His form, beyond human semblance—׃*****
Just so he shall startle many nations. ***** Also entire other nations will see him/servant this way
Kings shall be silenced because of him, *****
For they shall see what has not been told them, ***** Other kings will see what they can’t believe
Shall behold what they never have heard.”*****
“Who can believe what we have heard? ***** The kings speak, wondering about the unbelieveable
Upon whom has the arm of the LORD--a been revealed? ***** Asking about the state of the Jews
For he has grown, by His favor, like a tree crown, ***** the same subject – him/servant/Jews is described by
Like a tree trunk out of arid ground. ***** The same foreign kings who marvel at the situation
He had no form or beauty, that we should look at him: ***** the “we” is the kings who are being quoted
No charm, that we should find him pleasing. ***** The “him” is still the nation, the Jews, God’s servant
He was despised, shunned by men, ***** The kings realize how the Jews were shunned
A man of suffering, familiar with disease. ***** And how they suffered
As one who hid his face from us, ***** Like someone so ashamed he hid himself
He was despised, we held him of no account. ***** “we” (the foreign nations) considered him lowly
Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, ***** But the whole time, say the kings, he was suffering
Our suffering that he endured. ***** As a replacement for what we deserved to suffer
We accounted him plagued, ***** We just thought God was being mean to him
Smitten and afflicted by God;*****
But he was wounded because of our sins, ***** but it wasn’t mean-ness. It was God making him pay
Crushed because of our iniquities. ***** For what WE (foreign nations) did
He bore the chastisement that made us whole, ***** we stayed whole while and BECAUSE the Jews paid for it
And by his bruises we were healed. ***** And through the Jews’ suffering, the nations stayed well
We all went astray like sheep, ***** We (foreign nations) did bad things
Each going his own way;*****
And the LORD visited upon him ***** and God punished the Jews
The guilt of all of us.”*****
He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, ***** And yet the Jews didn’t complain
He did not open his mouth;*****
Like a sheep being led to slaughter,*****
Like a ewe, dumb before those who shear her,*****
He did not open his mouth.*****
By oppressive judgment he was taken away, ***** He was exiled, taken from his homeland
Who could describe his abode?*****
For he was cut off from the land of the living*****
Through the sin of my people, who deserved the punishment. ***** Because of us.
And his grave was set among the wicked, ***** even in death he was punished
And with the rich, in his death-*****
Though he had done no injustice ***** though he didn’t do wrong
And had spoken no falsehood.*****
But the LORD chose to crush him by disease, ***** God wanted to punish him in this world
That, if he made himself an offering for guilt, ***** so that if he bore it patiently
He might see offspring and have long life, ***** he would see his descendants flourish
And that through him the LORD’s purpose might prosper. ***** And his children carry out God’s plan
Out of his anguish he shall see it; ***** By being willing to suffer, the Jews will see
He shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion. ***** The fruits of devotion later
“My righteous servant makes the many righteous, ***** God, in 1st person, now describes the situation
It is their punishment that he bears; ***** the servant nation bears the foreign nations’ punishment
Assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion, ***** so he will earn a heck of a great reward
He shall receive the multitude as his spoil.*****
For he exposed himself to death*****
And was numbered among the sinners,*****
Whereas he bore the guilt of the many*****
And made intercession for sinners.” ***** The Jews suffered on behalf of others and saved them.
rosends
Well-Known Member
I tried to lay out the speakers and pronouns -- I had columns in the Word document, but I couldn't cut and paste the formatting here so I used ***** to split up the left side (the translated text) and the right side, the explanation of pronouns and references. If you need me to show the Hebrew to clarify, let me know. I can do that as well.
Flankerl
Well-Known Member
Pretty smug answer considering Islam exists.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Well, even if so, I don't assume that we have the actual recording.
I don't assume that such parallels would have to be exact because if that were the case, they wouldn't any longer be symbolic but would actually be the original. IOW, the symbols are not the exact thing that they symbolize.
As you know, even though Torah is linear in time, there's sorta like flashbacks whereas somethings may be repeated but not precisely the same, such as the two creation accounts [Gen. 1:1 and 2:4-- the order is slightly different].
The 2nd one seems to be what happened when God created man. It is not the story of the whole of creation. That story is in Gen 1.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The New Testament does not deny the Old Testament. The Quran denies what is in the Bible.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Possibly, but now we are quite certain that they are different because they were written at different times and by different authors, especially since it's likely they were carried as part of an oral tradition prior to being written.
Either way, we should never assume that "variations" match, imo.
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Come again?
He rose during First Fruits. Two loaves held aloft and waived, a priest crossing arms, "Look God, Jew and Gentile, two convenants!"
Yeshua WAS in a hurry to leave the grave--he preached to the disobedient spirits in Sheol--SAT in Heaven because His work was finished (no chairs in the Jerusalem Temple), presented His blood in Heaven as our great high priest, etc.
THE reasons to believe: 1) All the NT is Mishnah that aligns with Temple practice 2) Both testaments are prescient concerning modern Israel and Yeshua's ministry.
..
Or we can return to your contention. That we left Egypt in a hurry millennia ago. Do we NOW leave our place in a hurry on Pesach? So did the people leave their place in a hurry in 30 CE when Jesus died and rose? No.
"When Israel was a child I loved HIM, and out of Egypt I called MY SON."
BilliardsBall
Veteran Member
Huh? The Bible contains the dates and times of the events of the life of Jesus.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I am not seeing an opposite.
I believe the true meaning of deliverer (Messiah) only becomes true at Armageddon. Mat. 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe I fail to see a contradiction. Perhaps you could show logic for that but I doubt it.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Maybe the theory was half baked.
Triumph
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Yes, Jews left Egypt in a hurry because they had killed people in their sleep and stolen their gold.
People think of the FIRST born child of a family as an infant or young child but that is the last born child of a family except for the newly married.
The first born child of a family are men of military age, the fighters.
Moses had his men break into their houses at night, kill them in their sleep and steal their gold. What Egyptian military men that were left chased Moses for vengeance of his merciless murders of their people and retrieval of their gold. The command of God is do not kill, so Moses lied saying it was by the hand of God that Egyptian children were killed.
Then later Moses claims that gold was given to the Jews freely as "borrowed" gold but of course the unrepentant murderer Moses hiding from justice, never had any intention of returning that gold and has not to this day so it was nothing but theft.
Jesus said all that came before him were "robbers and thieves".
Triumph
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
The Jews by their laws had to bury Jesus quickly and assure he died quickly because their laws state if a condemned by Jews man dies or is buried on the Sabbath then a "curse" is on the heads of the Hebrew/Jews. Because of their hocus pocus beliefs of divine curses associated with men they demand die for offenses they claim is an offense, Jews wanted Jesus in his tomb before their Sabbath to avoid a "curse" upon themselves.
Jews also have a traditional written law that a Jew can beat his slave to death, male or female for any reason and not be punished as long as the slave dies the following day from the brutal wounds. If the slave dies the same day of the beating, the Jew can pay the temple money to be called righteous for his trespass of the law. A rich Jew could kill as many of his slaves as he wanted and still be considered an upstanding member of their society as long as he paid money to the temple for the enjoyment of their murders. Most Jews owned household slaves and approved of slavery. They did not like being slaves themselves but Jews would even sell their own family members into slavery including their children according to scripture.
Both the Egyptians and the Jews believed in owning slaves but there is a belief that the Jews never were actual slaves in Egypt but were paid workers living there to earn money. That idea is supported by the Pharisees telling Jesus they had never been a slave to any man.
Triumph
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
The bread of Jesus is his doctrine and it is not the Jewish doctrine, bread. They have completely different doctrine. Jesus was leading people away from being a Jew supporting Jewish beliefs not turning people into being a Jew. Jews kept trying to stone Jesus to death because Jesus was breaking their laws and not supporting their beliefs.
Brian2
Veteran Member
You might be quite certain that they were written at different times and by different authors. I'm not certain at all. But I do believe the whole things is inspired by God.
It is also plain that Gen 2 is not about the creation of the universe and is just about the creation of man and what God did then, including planting Eden and creating some (more) animals for Adam to name.