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Featured Jesus as a Jew...

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ellen Brown, Apr 21, 2019.

  1. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    I know that there were thirteen tribes of Israel and Levi was one such tribe.

    I also know that in post # 53, you wrote; "First you need to choose whether you want Mary to be a Priest or an Israelite. Then you can decide which genealogy is the right one."

    Mary is the mother of Jesus and there is only one genealogy in the bible of Jesus the son of Mary.

    I also know that in post 57, you wrote; "The point I was trying to make is that in one comment you have her descending from the Priestly line and in another from the Judahite line."

    I have Mary the mother of Jesus, and grand daughter to Yehoshua/Jesus III, who was the high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC as a descendant, through her father's line of Nathan the prophet, according to the only genealogy of Jesus the son of Mary as recorded in Luke 3:23..

    Alexander Helios=Heli, the father of both Mary and Joseph and the biological grand-father of Jesus, according to the genealogy of Jesus as recorded in Luke, was a descendant of Nathan the prophet who was the biological son of Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite.

    Uriah became a member of the tribe of Levi by his marriage to Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel, the son of Oded-Edom, who was a descendant of Moses from the house of Levi, by his second wife Jepunniah, an Ethiopian woman, [See Numbers 12: 1; KJV] who was the widow of a man from the tribe of Judah, and the mother of Caleb, who, at the age of forty, became the adopted son of Moses, and Jepunniah was the daughter of Hobab the Kennite, one of the two fathers-in-law to Moses, [See Judges 4: 11.]

    The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded...as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 119b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house, which means, that Heli and his descendants, who were born from the genetic line of Nathan ‘the prophet,’ who was the adopted son of King David, were legitimate heirs to King David, but not to the throne of Israel, as the prophesied Messiah had to come through the genetic line of Solomon.

    Heli and his descendants only became heirs to the throne of David, through Nathan the adopted son of King David, when Naria, a descendant of Nathan, married Tamar, a female descendant of King Solomon, who bore to Naria a son by the name “Salathiel.” After the death of Naria, Tamar was taken to wife by King Jehoiachin, whose only son with Tamar, was Zedekiah who died prematurely in Childhood.

    According to Torah law, Nathan the adopted son of King David and his descendants, were legitimate heirs of King David, but not in the ancestral line of the promised Messiah, who was to be born of the seed of Solomon, until Naria the descendant of Nathan coupled with Tamah the descendant of Solomon, to produce Salathiel the ancestor of Jesus, who has been made High Priest (From the tribe of Levi=Nathan) and King (From the tribe of Judah=Solomon) in the order of Melchizedek.

    David Hughes the noted Genealogist of the Ancient World Lineages, states that King Jeconiah’s only son, with Queen Tamar, ‘Prince Zedekiah,’ died prematurely in childhood, and in 586 BCE King Zedekiah, the last king of Israel, whose original name Mattaniah, was the son of Josiah and the uncle of Jehoiachin. King Zedekiah/Mattaniah, was taken prisoner and his sons were executed in front of him, after which, his eyes were gouged out, and there in Babylon, he remained blinded in exile for the rest of his life and it appeared that the entire royal lineage of King David through God’s chosen son, Solomon, had been exterminated.

    With all the known direct lineages of male heirs to the lineage of King Solomon the son of King David and Bathsheba now extinct, Queen Tamar II became the dynastic heiress preserving not only the Lineage of King Solomon, but also became the inter-dynastic link, or the vital crossover heiress merging the non-royal Nathan lineage with the royal lineages of King Solomon. With the addition of Tamar representing the mainline descendants of King David, we now can understand the linkage between the two prime royal and non-royal lineages to the ancestry of the Jewish Messiah Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios a descendant of Nathan).

    Jesus carried in his genes the potent fusion of Davidian and Zadokian bloodlines. He carried the potent bloodline of the royal mantle as a Priest-King of Israel and the messianic mantle as the Maschiach Yisra’el (Messiah of Israel) of the House of David.

    Hebrew 5: 10; “And God declared him (Jesus) to be high priest according to the priestly order of Melchizedek.” Melchizedek held the titles of both King and high priest. Hebrew 5: 5; “In the same way, Christ did not take upon himself the honor of being high priest. Instead, God said to him, ‘You are my Son; TODAY I have become your Father.’”
     
  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    There are 12 tribes. When Manasseh and Ephraim are counted, Levi is not. Where Levi is counted, Joseph is counted.
    That has nothing to do with what I was talking about though.

    Yes. In another post you wrote:
    The name of the children of this union between Mattathias, the Nasi and Prince of Israel...​
    Although now I see that you were referring to a Levite by the name Mattathias and were unaware that the title Nasi is reserved for those who descend from the Davidic line and could therefore not be his title.

    It's 19b, Sanhedrin only goes up to 113 folios.
    It does not say that the adopted child is treated as though he's born to the father's house. That's just what you want it to say. All the Talmud says is that the Torah gives the merit of having born the child to the other parents as well. Not more than that. In fact, just a few lines down on the same page it says, "Whoever teaches the son of his friend Torah, the verse ascribes to him as if he bore him". Same exact phrase. That doesn't mean that Aaron's children should be considered Levites instead of Priests. And then you have a few times in Avos where the Mishnah uses the phrase "the verse ascribes to him as if he's liable for the forfeiture of his life". That doesn't mean he's a dead man walking and his wife can go marry someone else.
    So no, Nathan was not a legitimate heir to King David.
    There is no Neri and Tamar. Salathiel is a descendant of Jeconiah. The descendants of Nathan are unknown and inconsequential.
    There is no order of Melchizedek.

    No, Jeconiah had 7 sons. Zerubabel was a direct descendant of king David. His father was either Salathiel or his brother, both of whom descend from David. There's no need for for representations and other nonsense to ensure G-d's oath to David that his line would always remain, should be true.
     
  3. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying that there was no such person as Melchizedek who was both king and high priest, as The Lord has made the man Jesus?

    Salathiel was the son of Tamar and Neri, who became the adopted son of Jeconiah, who was cursed by God as revealed in Jeremiah 22: 30; concerning King Jehoiachim; Thus, saith the Lord. “Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days; for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.”

    Please reveal where the cursed King Jehoiachim, the adopting father of Salathiel the son of Tamar and Neri, had seven sons?

    Tumah wrote, "There is no Neri and Tamar,.Salathiel is a descendant of Jeconiah. The descendants of Nathan are unknown and inconsequential.

    But according to the NT, which is apparently rejected by the dying Jewish faith, Neri is the biological father of Salathiel, an ancestor of Jesus, our king and high priest, and a descendant of Nathan the adopted son of King David
     
    #63 The Anointed, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2019
  4. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    There was a king and priest named Melchizedek. He was part of nor order, nor did he leave one after himself.

    Who?

    All his days. During his lifetime, the reign passed to Zedekiah. But after his death, to Zerubabel.

    It looks like you are confusing Jehoiachim and Jehoiachin.
    Jehoiachim had two sons: Jehoiachin and Zedekkiah.
    Jehoiachin had seven sons: Shealtiel , Malchiram, Pedaiah, Shenazzar, Jekamiah, Hoshama, Nedabiah
    1 Chron. 3:16-18

    Jehoiachin was cursed in Jer. 22:30 that he would never see success in his lifetime. And indeed, the kingship passed to his uncle Zedekiah, his father's brother. After Jehoiachin had died, the curse ended and his grandson through either Pedaiah or Salathiel, Zerubabel (ibid v. 19) continued the royal line. (Haggai 2:23)

    Well, I guess that means that the NT fabricated it along with most of the rest of the line.
     
    #64 Tumah, Apr 22, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 22, 2019
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  5. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps I should have said Hebrews or Jews or Habiru.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The fate of Alexander Helios is unknown. Plutarch, Cassius Dio and Suetonius state that Octavian killed Antony's son Marcus Antonius Antyllus and Cleopatra's son with Julius Caesar, Caesarion.

    The only further mention of Alexander Helios and Ptolemy Philadelphus comes from Cassius Dio, who states that when their sister Cleopatra Selene II married King Juba II, Octavian (then named Augustus) spared the lives of Alexander Helios and Ptolemy Philadelphus as a favor to the couple.

    After Helios arrived in Rome, he disappears from historical records, implying that he died before reaching maturity.

    Alexander Helios - Wikipedia
     
  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I mean in relation to the Canaanites and Babylonians, where do the Israelites come from.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Are you asking for my opinion? I think they were either a landless Canaanite tribe with a better idea, or they were Marsh Arabs from South of Basra.
     
  9. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I was originally asking it more rhetorically as an answer to the point about Israel culturally appropriating Cannanite/Babylonian ideas, when they both lived in the same region.
     
  10. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think Judaism didn't emerge from a vacuum.. so yes, I think they were most certainly influenced by the cultures around them.
     
  11. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I'm saying something slightly different. I'm saying that calling it cultural appropriation is like saying New Jersey appropriated American culture from New York.
     
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  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Depends on which mistakes you may be referring to. I think he can probably take the credit for most of his mistakes. But if he got some of them from Joseph Smith, it wouldn't really matter much, as Joseph Smith was only human as well.. We've never claimed any of our leaders to have been infallible.
     
  13. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    Your friend is funny.

    Who is the crazy bunch of Gentiles who ingenuously develop this bogus religion?

    Would that be Constantine the Great? Constantine the Great - Wikipedia
    Would that be the First Council of Nicaea? First Council of Nicaea - Wikipedia
    These crazy bunch lived in the 4th century AD
    and Christ was already preached way before that during the first century.
     
  14. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    I have the suspicion that things happened in the first 400 years that would take the Church significantly away from the path that Jesus had hoped for. Access to that history is uncertain at best. Sadly, the modern church isn't focused.
     
  15. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    When the Lord Jesus preached about God, he preached about the new covenant
    He established his church.
    Delegated the task of preaching and baptizing to his apostles
    He was taken up to heaven
    The first century church was persecuted but it grew
    From Jerusalem, the church spread to the Gentile lands
    As it is being persecuted, false prophets and teachers began to apostatize the church
    The apostles died, and after 10 or so years, the Mother of Harlots emerged
    Apostasy was complete

    These scenario was foretold and expected by the Lord Jesus Christ
    during his ministry on earth

    But his church did not saw the end
    the saga isn't over
    Because Jesus said it isn't over
    until the fat lady sings.

    John 10:9-16 New International Version (NIV)
    I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

    “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

    “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

    upload_2019-4-23_15-52-29.jpeg

    Christ sheep which is not part of the first century church.
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Alexander Helios died young... He didn't father any children.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The twins were born in 40 BC.

    Between 26 and 20 BC, Augustus arranged for Cleopatra to marry King Juba II of Numidia in Rome.

    The Emperor Augustus gave to Cleopatra as a wedding present a huge dowry and she became an ally to Rome.

    By then her brothers, Alexander Helios and Ptolemy Philadelphus, had disappeared from all known historical records and are presumed to have died, possibly from illness or assassination. When Cleopatra married Juba, she was the only surviving member of the Ptolemaic dynasty
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Alexander Helios1, son of Cleopatra VII and Antony, born 40, declared king of Armenia and king of kings of Media and Parthia and engaged to Iotape, daughter of Artavasdes I, king of Media Atropatene at the Donations of Alexandria in autumn 34, placed under the guardianship of Octavia, sister of Augustus, after the annexation of Egypt, further career unknown; possibly died between 29 and 25. No marriages or children are known.

    Alexander Helios
     
  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Post # 77: Alexander Helios died young... He didn't father any children.

    Post # 78: By then her brothers, Alexander Helios and Ptolemy Philadelphus, had disappeared from all known historical records and are PRESUMED to have died, POSSIBLY from illness or assassination.

    Post # 79: POSSIBLY died between 29 and 25. No marriages or children are known.

    You nor your chosen scholarship mates from which you cut and paste, haven't got a clue, Have you?

    Now let me repeat your post # 77 Grandma....."Alexander Helios died young... He didn't father any children."

    Like I said Grandma, 'YOU WOULDN'T HAVE A FLAMIN CLUE.
     
    #79 The Anointed, Apr 23, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I think it helps to have some background and an understanding of Israel's history to see why Jesus had to come and why he needed to be Jewish.

    It basically stems from a promise to one of the most faithful of God's earthly servants......Abraham. That promise to Abraham was that through his seed, all nations would be blessed.

    Genesis 2:18....
    "And by means of your offspring all nations of the earth will obtain a blessing for themselves because you have listened to my voice.’”

    God multiplied Abraham's descendants and they became a great nation numerically, but as far as their record of faithful adherence to God's commands.....well, that's another story.

    The apostle Paul identifies Jesus as that "seed".
    Galatians 3:16...
    "Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “and to your descendants,” in the sense of many. Rather, it says, “and to your offspring,” in the sense of one, who is Christ."

    Despite Israel's checkered history, God was true to his promise and when the time came for his Messiah to put in an appearance, the nation of Israel had gone completely off the rails, spiritually speaking. Jesus came to take up his mission by approaching John the Baptist, who at first protested that he was not worthy of the task....but Jesus insisted and he was baptized in the Jordan River and immediately received God's holy spirit.

    After 40 days in the wilderness communing with his Father and preparing for his difficult assignment, he then chose his 12 apostles....mostly humble fishermen. He trained them to take over the work he started because he knew that his mission would not be a long one....but there was huge task ahead.

    Owing to his promise to Abraham, Jesus only preached to "the lost sheep of the House of Israel". He was not sent to the Jewish Leaders, whom he deemed to be incorrigible, (Matthew 23) but to the lost sheep that those shepherds had neglected.

    This is why Jesus was reluctant to preach to anyone but Jews during his ministry. They, as Abraham's descendants had first dibs for positions in God's Kingdom, thought to be an earthly arrangement, reestablishing Israel as an independent nation once again. They did not discern the spiritual nature of the Kingdom until after Jesus died and was resurrected and returned to heaven. At Pentecost they received their anointing for life in heaven and also received the gift of holy spirit.

    Once it became obvious that the Jews were not going to make up the full number of those going to heaven, God opened up the opportunity for Gentiles to also partake of holy spirit and accept Jesus as their savior too.
    It was always going to involve them as God's promise to Abraham indicated..."ALL nations would be blessed" by the seed that he sent into the world.

    Peter was told to go to the home of Cornelius, the first Gentile convert to Christianity. Peter was given a vision of unclean animals and told to slaughter and eat them. Peter was horrified at such a suggestion, but three times it was repeated and after his call to baptize Cornelius and his family, Peter knew what the vision was all about. He was given the keys of the Kingdom and used them to open the way for Gentiles to gain salvation along with faithful ones of the nation of Israel. He was not to call unclean, the things that God had cleansed.


    Humans will never be "all they can be" until sin is removed completely and permanently. The 1,000 year reign of God's Kingdom with Jesus at the helm, will accomplish that. Opening up the way to return to God's first purpose in Eden. Jesus came to give us back what Adam and his wife took from us......everlasting life in paradise on earth. The heavenly Kingdom will rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4)

    That makes sense to me.....
     
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