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Featured Jesus and temptation.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Gabriel Shechtman, Jul 16, 2020.

  1. Gabriel Shechtman

    Gabriel Shechtman New Member

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    So one of the claimed new teachings of jesus is that the mere thought of a bad deed is sin in itself if i am not mistaken.

    "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

    Now jesus has experienced temptation, this point is used in explaining how jesus can understand us better.
    My problem is how can jesus go through temptation without having desire (intent).

    For temptation to exist, one must have even little bit of desire that he is trying to resist, else it is not temptation?

    Thus jesus as one who went through temptations, experienced it, had to desire it a bit so he can resist and experience temptation.

    But then it means jesus sinned?
    In general I see no problem in jesus sinning, as later he emptied himself and became fully holy, I see it as being cleansed from all sins. Thus he becomes the spotless lamb. Still, many Christians try to defend the point that jesus never sinned, no even as a 14 years old healthy sexually teenager etc.... So did he experience human life or not??

    Feel free to just say whatever comes to mind... god bless.
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    I always saw this as kind of the point of Christianity; make it so people are always sinful even when they're experiencing completely normal things in order to then give them the solution: Jesus. Since you're just a depraved sinner who has no hope then you need to accept Jesus as your personal sacrifice to make that sin go away. It's very make-a-problem-to-peddle-your-solution imo.
     
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  3. Gabriel Shechtman

    Gabriel Shechtman New Member

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    Fair point, but do you agree with point then? That jesus was a sinner at one point? Does my reasoning seem consistent?
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    As I believe he was a normal human being then yes, he sinned.
     
  5. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    New Jewish member, welcome! :) We may have an actual virtual minyan soon...:D
     
  6. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    I personally don't have a problem viewing Jesus as a person who never had any sort of lustful temptation. There are such men. He did other sins, whether you go by the Talmudic version or the NT version of the man.
     
  7. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Hebrews 4:15
    For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    If you lust in the thought, then it is sin. But if you resist the thought it isn't. When Jesus was hungry the devil tempted him and say "Turn this stone into bread" - his response "It is written, man shall not live by bread alone"

    He didn't take the thought.
    so why do you think he sinned?
     
    #7 KenS, Jul 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Welcome, Gabriel!

    What do you make of these words of Jesus, 'Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of his mouth, this defileth a man'?

    Later, Jesus said to Peter, 'Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
    But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
    For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
    These are things that defile a man: but to eat with unwashed hands defileth not a man'

    An idea that may not go down well in Covid times, but, in truth, it speaks of the heart as the root of evil thoughts. To lust after a woman is considered an evil thought, and there is no indication that Jesus ever looked upon a woman with lust. The scriptures are clear that Jesus Christ was tempted in all things (by the outside source) but sinned not.
     
  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Come on, Harel13, which other sins did Jesus commit?!
     
  10. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    I've said my piece on the subject time and again here on RF; I'm not getting into another pointless argument on the subject. This is how it'll go:

    Me: Jesus did x, y, z and that's clearly against Jewish law!
    Christian RFer: NO YOU ARE WRONG because: Jesus fulfilled the law/Pharisees totally invented that stuff/whatever Jesus did was alright because he's Jesus.

    In the interest of remaining civil, I think we should both slowly and quietly back away from the subject. :cool:
     
  11. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    well....He did disappear for about 16years

    hard telling what He did
     
  12. Brian2

    Brian2 Active Member

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    This is not really new, the 10 Commandments also has "You shall not covet.........."

    Jesus was a man who experiences desire for women and probably looked at what someone else had and thought. "Yes, I'd really like that".
    These are the temptations and the sin is to follow through and keep lusting or to figure out a way to take what does not belong to you from someone else.
    Jesus also said that if we are angry at someone for no good reason we are doing the wrong thing. This does not mean that anger did not flare up in Jesus from time to time, it means imo that He would consider it before speaking or acting on it, and so avoid sinning.
    Jesus nature was to love God and His neighbour so these things may have come more easily to Him. And even in us, our reactions to stimuli can be tempered considerably I have found, so that we can control our thoughts and reactions more easily over time.


    Thus jesus as one who went through temptations, experienced it, had to desire it a bit so he can resist and experience temptation.

    Jesus was the spotless lamb from the beginning. It is the fact that He had and has the same nature as His Father which made Him that way. Jesus had 2 natures, the human and the divine and His divine nature overcame the His carnal nature every time.
    We however do not know the consciousness of Jesus. The NT says that He grew in stature and wisdom, so I guess there could have been a time in His early years when He did not know right from wrong, just like all kids, and had to be spanked or whatever, to teach Him some things. It is not sin however if we are innocent of knowing right from wrong.
     
  13. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Bad thoughts lead to bad deeds, good thoughts lead to good deeds. Maybe he was just advising us to take control of our thoughts.

    Should we see a woman as a sex toy or as a fellow human being?

    If your mind is on lust, kind of hard to see the humanity. Perhaps the sin is in the failure of knowing the humanity of our fellow human beings.
     
  14. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I agree this saying of Jesus has always struck me as problematic, for just the reasons you give, if it was meant literally rather than rhetorically.

    What I suspect however is that there is an element of hyperbole. It comes from the Sermon on the Mount, in which Jesus is trying to get across the idea his teaching is more demanding than the Law of Moses because it makes demands of the attitude of mind - the spirit - and not just physical actions. If you read this verse in context, the direction of travel if his speech becomes clearer.
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that's fine by me. Debate is for those who wish to debate.
     
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  16. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Considering over a decade of his life is missing, he's had well over 10 years to sin. But here are some:

    -Broke the Sabbath.
    -Dishonoured his parents.
    -Created violence (he made a scourge and started flailing it around in a market).
    -He taught his disciples to disregard the law by allowing them to break it by picking grain on the Sabbath.
    -He called people names ('You brood of vipers').
    -He allowed himself to be killed (if he knew he were on a suicide mission he should have stopped, but he let it happen and there was no coercion).
    -According to some Jewish beliefs, he practiced black magic.
     
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  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    And which of these is to be taken seriously? You've read the Christian Testament!
     
  18. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    All of them? You know they're written there, so I don't know what you have to be sarcastic about.

    Go around any street vendor with a whip, smashing things, and see what happens.

    Start calling whole groups of people 'broods of vipers' and see what happens.

    Break the Sabbath in ancient Israel and see what happens (it's a death penalty thing).

    Call your mother 'Woman' and see what happens.
     
    #18 Rival, Jul 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
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  19. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    I don’t think so, if the temptation comes from someone else. For example, if I would say to you, “do that, it would be good and nice”, it would be attempt to tempt. But, it would not be from you and it would not necessary be your desire.
     
  20. Harel13

    Harel13 Well-Known Member

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    I would add that he was disrespectful to non-Jews in public (compare to this quote from the Talmud: "One must always [take steps to] increase peace with one’s brethren and with one’s relatives, and with all people, even with a non-Jew in the marketplace...they said about Rabban Yoḥanan ben Zakkai that no one ever preceded him in issuing a greeting, not even a non-Jew in the marketplace, as Rabban Yoḥanan would always greet him first...")
    And idolatry according to others.
     
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