Jesus and Satan as "brothers"

[Faithofchristian]

Do you sincerely want my opinion, or are you just looking for a good argument?

it would be appreciated, I'm just curious to know how you may view it.
How is Jesus the Son of God, but yet God himself.

 

[sealchan]

What is so hard to understand, that Jesus is not a created being and Satan is a created being.
What so hard about that.

Jesus wasn't created? How is that?

I know this is an age old debate about how divine Jesus was. But if Jesus wasn't born then neither was anything or anyone else. All is an expression of the potential of God before God chose what to create. All things that are named are born.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What changed, do you think, between the last line of Genesis 2 and Genesis 3:10? By your accounting Adam didn't undergo any change in knowledge between those two times.
In whose name has war been fought throughout the centuries? In whose name has genocide, persecution, murder and rape been justified?
So what are the lessons of time? Or are we still holding out hope for the real truths to be proven?

I agree that Adam did Not undergo any change, so that means Adam committed suicide.
Apparently Adam did Not want to live without Eve. Adam chose to love Eve more than his God.

Men (I repeat Men) fought wars in God's name.
(I like Psalms 46:9 that it is God (Not men's wars) that will bring an end to wars earthwide)
Even false clergy use the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their young on the Altar of War as if that is the same as the Altar of God. Jesus taught Christians do Not fight as per Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10.
So, men (false clergy) wrongly justify such crimes as being done in God's name.
When we pick up a morning newspaper we read about the bad news of men's kingdom governments.
When we pick up the Bible we read about the good news of God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44.
'Lessons of time' have proven Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9 to be true.
That in our day people will travel ' to and fro ' through the pages of Scripture finding real truths proven.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Jesus wasn't created? How is that?

Jesus wasn't created, Jesus is the Almighty God the Father.

Jesus is the Son of God, But yet Jesus is God himself. So how does this work.
How does one be the Son, But yet be the Father.
A mind blower isn't it.
How does this work.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus wasn't created? How is that?
I know this is an age old debate about how divine Jesus was. But if Jesus wasn't born then neither was anything or anyone else. All is an expression of the potential of God before God chose what to create. All things that are named are born.

According to the Tetragrammaton God has a Name. A name Jesus said we should hallow ( hold as sacred ).
O course the pre-human Jesus was created as per Revelation 3:14 B.
Only God was before the beginning (Psalms 90:2) so Jesus was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning. God sent the already created pre-human heavenly Jesus to Earth.
In a family arrangement a father and son are Not equals, but it is the brothers who are equals.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I agree that Adam did Not undergo any change, so that means Adam committed suicide.
Apparently Adam did Not want to live without Eve. Adam chose to love Eve more than his God.

Men (I repeat Men) fought wars in God's name.
(I like Psalms 46:9 that it is God (Not men's wars) that will bring an end to wars earthwide)
Even false clergy use the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their young on the Altar of War as if that is the same as the Altar of God. Jesus taught Christians do Not fight as per Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10.
So, men (false clergy) wrongly justify such crimes as being done in God's name.
When we pick up a morning newspaper we read about the bad news of men's kingdom governments.
When we pick up the Bible we read about the good news of God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44.
'Lessons of time' have proven Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9 to be true.
That in our day people will travel ' to and fro ' through the pages of Scripture finding real truths proven.

As to how do you get out of
Matthew 26:52, that Jesus taught Christians do not fight as per
Matthew 26:52, Have you any idea why Jesus told one them put up your sword.
Have you any idea why Jesus told him that.

Have you any idea what Revelation 13:10 is speaking about or is it you just cherry pick out a Verse and apply it anyway that you want, without knowing what is being said and done.
What is Revelation 13:10 speaking about ?

 

[Katzpur]

Right, I find that God was Law Giver at Genesis 2:17 in that God was knowing good and evil/bad.
God knew what was good or what was evil/bad for mankind.
Eating (stealing) from God's tree was evil/bad. That carried the told death penalty: You eat, you die.
So, to me it is only natural that 'after' Adam ate that Adam would decide what was good or bad in his (man's) eyes.
The problem is what man has set up as being evil/bad has Not brought Peace on Earth, but wars, etc.

You seem to think that God would not have wanted His children to be able to discern between good and evil, and I can't imagine why that would be.

 

[sealchan]

I agree that Adam did Not undergo any change, so that means Adam committed suicide.
Apparently Adam did Not want to live without Eve. Adam chose to love Eve more than his God.

Men (I repeat Men) fought wars in God's name.
(I like Psalms 46:9 that it is God (Not men's wars) that will bring an end to wars earthwide)
Even false clergy use the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their young on the Altar of War as if that is the same as the Altar of God. Jesus taught Christians do Not fight as per Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10.
So, men (false clergy) wrongly justify such crimes as being done in God's name.
When we pick up a morning newspaper we read about the bad news of men's kingdom governments.
When we pick up the Bible we read about the good news of God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44.
'Lessons of time' have proven Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9 to be true.
That in our day people will travel ' to and fro ' through the pages of Scripture finding real truths proven.

Suicide?! How then did he have children?

Also, I do not hold that the Bible is anything other than the voice of men. Inspired by God yes but still human and limited. You can't wall off a book from humanity nor actions from writings. All of God's wars were fought by men and women against the same in the name of one God or another.

It is clear that whether someone understands God or not is a matter of personal judgment and/or a reference to someone else's personal judgment. The Bible is not a man and has no opinion outside of the one that the reader draws from it.

Everything you have said in this thread are your words, your understanding. If you don't agree to this we won't have a profitable discussion I am afraid.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Suicide?! How then did he have children?
Also, I do not hold that the Bible is anything other than the voice of men. Inspired by God yes but still human and limited. You can't wall off a book from humanity nor actions from writings. All of God's wars were fought by men and women against the same in the name of one God or another.

I find that Adam ( after sinning ) would die within a thousand-year day.
So, Adam was already as good as dead from the day he broke God's Law.
So, in that sense, Adam took his own life in the day that he sinned.
During Adam's 930 year life, Adam fathered children. ALL his children being born with human imperfection.
Since Christ, there is No such thing as God's wars because God is Not backing any of men's wars.
Jesus taught to now put down the weapons at Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10.
God will bring an end to wars earthwide according to Psalms 46:9.
That is why God will have Jesus step in according to Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 to cause wars to cease.
Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You seem to think that God would not have wanted His children to be able to discern between good and evil, and I can't imagine why that would be.

Absolutely, God wanted his children to be able to discern between good and evil/bad.
That is why, God as a good parent, teaches us through Scripture what is right and wrong in His eyes.
We are to use our thinking abilities to discern that God (Father) knows best.
That way we do Not have to learn everything through trial and error, but be ahead of the game.

To me a wise parent would Not let a minor child to decide for himself what was good or not.
( I know a lot of parents do Not instruct today, and we see the immature children they are 'raising' )
(I see a lot of parents do Not even teach their children to have self-control of themselves today )
(I am Not talking about special-needs children, but average children)
Given proper instruction, or education, then a new life would comes to know wise parents know what is best.
That way as the child matures it knows and can discern what is good and evil/bad without learning the hard way.

 

[sealchan]

I find that Adam ( after sinning ) would die within a thousand-year day.
So, Adam was already as good as dead from the day he broke God's Law.
So, in that sense, Adam took his own life in the day that he sinned.
During Adam's 930 year life, Adam fathered children. ALL his children being born with human imperfection.
Since Christ, there is No such thing as God's wars because God is Not backing any of men's wars.
Jesus taught to now put down the weapons at Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10.
God will bring an end to wars earthwide according to Psalms 46:9.
That is why God will have Jesus step in according to Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-16 to cause wars to cease.
Jesus, as Prince of Peace, will usher in global Peace on Earth among persons of goodwill.

I hope so...but so far plenty of wars in God's name have been fought and seemingly God has remained silent about it.

I'm not sure it makes sense to say that with Christ God no longer had need of war...why would God have resorted to war in the first place? And, are you saying you literally believe that the slaughter of non-combatants and children in the name of God WAS a God supported war?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I hope so...but so far plenty of wars in God's name have been fought and seemingly God has remained silent about it.
I'm not sure it makes sense to say that with Christ God no longer had need of war...why would God have resorted to war in the first place? And, are you saying you literally believe that the slaughter of non-combatants and children in the name of God WAS a God supported war?

I find you are far from alone in thinking ' God has remained silent....'
After all, if you were God then you know you could stop wars, etc.
What Satan and Adam did was more than just disobey God.
By Adam breaking God's 'do not eat' Law, then Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into man's hands. In effect, Adam set up People Rule as being superior to God Rule.
By breaking God's Law then Adam was choosing to decide for himself what was right or what was wrong.
Adam put God out of the picture by ignoring God's will and purpose for mankind.
Since God honors our free-will choices, then God does Not necessarily interfere with what man decides.
However, when it came to the point that violent people would have killed off all righteous people from Earth, then that is why God did step in Noah's day. Parents are responsible for minor children - 1 Corinthians 7:14.
Noah was Not just an Ark builder but a preacher warning the people. The people chose to ignore the warning.
The ' Promised Land ' belonged to the Israelites. The others did Not have the right to that land.
People like the Gibeonites who went along with the Israelites were spared.
Many others practiced immoral things such as found at Jeremiah 32:25; 2 Chronicles 28:3.
God did Not create the Earth for wicked people, thus those ruining the earth will be brought to ruin - Rev. 11:18 B.
If earth was your house, and your house became infested with rats would you get rid of your home, or get rid of the rats_________. Wicked rat-like people can Not remain on earth - Proverbs 2:21-22.
So, to me, God is Not silent in the sense that He forewarns us about what is coming.
We are all given two (2) choices at 2 Peter 3:9 to ' repent ' if we do not want to ' perish ' (be destroyed ).

 

[sealchan]

I agree that Adam did Not undergo any change, so that means Adam committed suicide.
Apparently Adam did Not want to live without Eve. Adam chose to love Eve more than his God.

Men (I repeat Men) fought wars in God's name.
(I like Psalms 46:9 that it is God (Not men's wars) that will bring an end to wars earthwide)
Even false clergy use the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents will sacrifice their young on the Altar of War as if that is the same as the Altar of God. Jesus taught Christians do Not fight as per Matthew 26:52; Revelation 13:10.
So, men (false clergy) wrongly justify such crimes as being done in God's name.
When we pick up a morning newspaper we read about the bad news of men's kingdom governments.
When we pick up the Bible we read about the good news of God's kingdom government of Daniel 2:44.
'Lessons of time' have proven Daniel 12:4; Daniel 12:9 to be true.
That in our day people will travel ' to and fro ' through the pages of Scripture finding real truths proven.

I find you are far from alone in thinking ' God has remained silent....'
After all, if you were God then you know you could stop wars, etc.
What Satan and Adam did was more than just disobey God.
By Adam breaking God's 'do not eat' Law, then Adam was taking the Law out of God's hands and placing the Law into man's hands. In effect, Adam set up People Rule as being superior to God Rule.
By breaking God's Law then Adam was choosing to decide for himself what was right or what was wrong.
Adam put God out of the picture by ignoring God's will and purpose for mankind.
Since God honors our free-will choices, then God does Not necessarily interfere with what man decides.
However, when it came to the point that violent people would have killed off all righteous people from Earth, then that is why God did step in Noah's day. Parents are responsible for minor children - 1 Corinthians 7:14.
Noah was Not just an Ark builder but a preacher warning the people. The people chose to ignore the warning.
The ' Promised Land ' belonged to the Israelites. The others did Not have the right to that land.
People like the Gibeonites who went along with the Israelites were spared.
Many others practiced immoral things such as found at Jeremiah 32:25; 2 Chronicles 28:3.
God did Not create the Earth for wicked people, thus those ruining the earth will be brought to ruin - Rev. 11:18 B.
If earth was your house, and your house became infested with rats would you get rid of your home, or get rid of the rats_________. Wicked rat-like people can Not remain on earth - Proverbs 2:21-22.
So, to me, God is Not silent in the sense that He forewarns us about what is coming.
We are all given two (2) choices at 2 Peter 3:9 to ' repent ' if we do not want to ' perish ' (be destroyed ).

I really don't agree with this...from what you are saying God punished Adam and Eve for eating a fruit that did nothing and as a result all the wars ever fought are all on them/us and had nothing to do with God. That requires believing that God disproportionally punished His creatures which He created. To me that is not a God worth believing in or relating to. That sort of God is like a parent who punishes severely and then walks away. No empathy, just power and dominance and it makes for children who have low self-worth and don't really respect authority unless that authority comes with ultimate punishment. That's an abusive relationship.

Now, as I see it, a more mature attitude is one where:

• Sometimes bad things happen to good people and vice versa
• Sometimes good things happen to bad people and vice versa
• God doesn't punish or reward but is there to share in the good and bad of the experience of His children and helps them through whatever happens
• God shows as an example not only His amoral side (that is the power of nature to destroy us or support us at its will and whim) but also His love of righteousness and morality in the face of His amorality
• God shows us that we can accept what we are given, no matter what, if we know that we are doing our best to do what is right

Some of the stories in the Bible about God clearly show abusive behavior and this makes sense given that the original audience probably lived in an abusive environment of foreign powers invading, ruling over and otherwise making the audience subject to a overpowering will. God, then, provided comfort where no other comfort could be had.

Hopefully we can move past this abusive way of thinking about ourselves (as sinners only) and realize that we all make mistakes and some of us make more than others. Developing an us vs them attitude toward people is not only wrong but dangerous. I hope that you will find your way out of this repent or perish attitude. That is a straight-up abusive belief system that I would not wish upon anyone. Or maybe you grew up in an abusive home and this is what you need. If so, so be it.

But in the end I think that Christians need to throw off such abusive nonsense and start to think more practically. Instead of fearing a dark and imaginary enemy called Satan whom we can all easily (lazily, crazily) blame for the bad actions of everyone, why don't we examine ourselves, understand why we might do something wrong and seriously look for a way to practically and effectively make the changes we need to to become better people.

I want no part of the sort of God you describe.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I really don't agree with this...from what you are saying God punished Adam and Eve for eating a fruit that did nothing and as a result all the wars ever fought are all on them/us and had nothing to do with God. That requires believing that God disproportionally punished His creatures which He created. To me that is not a God worth believing in or relating to. That sort of God is like a parent who punishes severely and then walks away. No empathy, just power and dominance and it makes for children who have low self-worth and don't really respect authority unless that authority comes with ultimate punishment. That's an abusive relationship.
Now, as I see it, a more mature attitude is one where:

• Sometimes bad things happen to good people and vice versa
• Sometimes good things happen to bad people and vice versa
• God doesn't punish or reward but is there to share in the good and bad of the experience of His children and helps them through whatever happens
• God shows as an example not only His amoral side (that is the power of nature to destroy us or support us at its will and whim) but also His love of righteousness and morality in the face of His amorality
• God shows us that we can accept what we are given, no matter what, if we know that we are doing our best to do what is right

Hopefully we can move past this abusive way of thinking about ourselves (as sinners only) and realize that we all make mistakes and some of us make more than others. Developing an us vs them attitude toward people is not only wrong but dangerous. I hope that you will find your way out of this repent or perish attitude. That is a straight-up abusive belief system that I would not wish upon anyone. Or maybe you grew up in an abusive home and this is what you need. If so, so be it.
But in the end I think that Christians need to throw off such abusive nonsense and start to think more practically. Instead of fearing a dark and imaginary enemy called Satan whom we can all easily (lazily, crazily) blame for the bad actions of everyone, why don't we examine ourselves, understand why we might do something wrong and seriously look for a way to practically and effectively make the changes we need to to become better people.
I want no part of the sort of God you describe.

I wonder what part of the Golden Rule you want No part of.
If everyone on Earth lived by the Golden Rule what kind of world would we have.
Plus, Jesus gave us a NEW commandment to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he has as found at John 13:34-35. So, what part of un-selfish love would you want No part of. Isn't that thinking more practically.

We all can make free-will choices. That has nothing to do with listening to Satan or anyone else.
We are all free to act responsibly toward God's Golden Rule and Jesus' NEW commandment.

God does accept our best leanings toward righteousness.
We can all repent if we wish to repent. No one is forcing anyone to be wicked or evil.
Thousands of years of human rulership history has shown that man can't bring Peace on Earth.
That is why Psalms 46:9 says that God will bring an end to wars earth wide.
Jesus' earthly subjects or citizens will be rescued (saved/delivered) as per Psalms 72:12-14; Psalms 72:8.
Rescued from ones who bring ruin to earth. They will be ruined, destroyed as per Revelation 11:18 B; Psalms 92:7.