Jesus ain't God.

[nothead]

Who is the ' Lord and Archangel ' at 1st Thessalonians 4 v 16 ?_________

First of all 71 verses juxtapose, rather position separate beings in the same verse, the LORD Jesus and GOD.
This is never reversed, the GOD Jesus and the Lord God (the Father). Secondly it ignores your vaunted but incognito third partner, the Holy Spirit. Thirdly this evidence alone should turn you away from the idea that NT authors were meaning "Lord" as being synonymous with "God."

Also you are ignoring the plain intent, which I suppose all JW's also do, that the trump and voice of the Archangel ACCOMPANIES Jesus' arrival. What you think he got a trumpet in his hand? Why do you believe this means HE is the archangel? An archangel is also a lesser 'elohim' UNDER God, so then where are you coming from my man? Confusion?

 

[nothead]

Why stop at the book of Isaiah ?
When Jesus was on earth Jehovah was his Savior - Hebrews 5 v 7; Psalm 28 v 8
The resurrected Jesus can also rightly be called Savior because he is Jehovah's agent. Please see - Titus 1 v 4; 2nd Peter 1 v 11.
Since Jesus means Jehovah is salvation that points to God as the Source of salvation. God's angel says Jesus will ' save '....at Matthew 1 v 21; Luke 1 v 31.

Aren't both the Father and Son spoken of together in connection to salvation ?_____
- Please see Titus 2 vs 11-13; 3 v 6

None of this proves Jesus is God, is this what you are meaning to do or what?

 

[nothead]

Adam and Eve were created with perfect human health having a sound heart, mind and body capable of living forever on earth.

Like Satan they were drawn out by their own desires - James 1 vs 13-15

Yeah, they were 'elohim' to whom the Word of God came. But they were demoted just as the heavenly court was in Psalm 82. A passage it behooves anyone to know whom would like to prove Jesus is God.

Since the un-numbered magi were never at the manger but found Jesus as a child in a house -- Matthew 2 vs 8,9,11,13, 14,16,20,21 - then how could they have seen Jesus in the manger ?

This is an unanswerable question. Light bulb turned on? Got the rev? Saw the seeing? Got nirvana? Became enlightened? Kundalini rose? Cards came out this way? Got blasted? Brain warp?

You can speculate but neither did they say they saw God. If they did, what are they leaving for? Nirvana?
Some other light bulb to turn on? New tarot cards on the horizon? Other kinds of kundalini rising?

Gospel writer John wrote about Jesus at Revelation 1 v 5; 3 v 14 that Jesus is the beginning of the creation by God.
God had No beginning. Only God was before the beginning.
Jesus then was Not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
In the beginning, but definitely Not before the beginning.

There is a slight prob here, gom. Eternity bassackwerds HAS no beginning. This is the meaning of infinity looking back. So IN THE BEGINNING must mean some point in time, even for the Jew, sir.

Try the Creation Story, Genesis one. Jews LIKE to tell tales from this beginning, hint. There ain't no GNOSTICAL beginning for the Jew, for this would be a hippy tale. Jews were not hippies, although they might have worn long hair as males. No loincloths either, George of the Jungle.

 

[EyeofOdin]

IMO Jesus was an illiterate, lower class, uneducated peasant who had the treasonous agenda to kick Rome out of Palestine and reestablish it as an independent nation. It was for this reason he was crucified.

 

[JM2C]

Jesus is not a Savior either. God himself is the Savior Isaiah 43:3 and God knows no other Savior, Isaiah 45:8 God Created Salvation Isaiah 44:8

Tit 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

You can read them; the Lord Jesus is God and Savior in the NT.

The Lord Jesus is the Son of God from eternity, not as a creation of God/Father, but existed as the same as God/Father Himself from eternity. He was with God before time began. The Lord Jesus was with God in Genesis 1:1

Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

And in verse 14 the “Word was God –Jn 1:1” “Became flesh” Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

2Jn 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

“Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh -2Jn 1:7” From where?

From eternity with God or Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.

Who was with God in the beginning?

God, the Son of God, and that was the reason why the Lord Jesus Christ is God ‘cause He is the Son of God from eternity before He became flesh.

Just think of this verse in Hebrews.

Heb 1:8 But about the Son he/God says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.

God/Father called His own Son “God”, “Your throne, O God”. How can He/Jesus be less than God if God/Father Himself called Him "God"?

Did God/Father violate His own decree in, Ex 20:3 “You shall have "NO OTHER/HETEROS/DIFFERENT" gods before me”?

NO! For the simple reason, that the Lord Jesus Christ is "NO OTHER/HETEROS/DIFFERENT" than Him/Father/God, BECAUSE Jn 10:30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[JM2C]

IMO Jesus was an illiterate, lower class, uneducated peasant who had the treasonous agenda to kick Rome out of Palestine and reestablish it as an independent nation. It was for this reason he was crucified.

You should read the NT.

 

[jpmohave]

Nice treatise, but the question here is whether or not Jesus is God. And the "no" answer does not in my mind delegate him to be "a good Samaritan" either. Jesus is not only propitiation, the belief in him brings the Spirit of the Comforter in the pentecostal sense. The desire and the power to do Shema, to love God with all of our heart soul and strength. Amen.

Sorry, I actually did not address the specific topic of is Jesus God or not. The answer to that is quite simple if we understand the historical meaning of the word God as it was used 2000 years ago. Jesus was a God yes, but today's use of the word God means the Infinite Omnipresence, the Great Spirit, the Creator / Creation itself, the almighty most high as in God. But at the time Jesus, whose real name was actually Jmmanuel Apollonius of Tyana, was a God. A God of Wisdom. The Word God was a title given to a human being who evolved to the highest level of wisdom and knowledge possible by a human being in physical form. He accepted this title because at the time it was an honor to reach this level of knowledge, wisdom, and love. But Jmmanuel never claimed to be God the creator of the Universe and all life. God of Wisdom is what he was so the answer is both. Yes he was a God, but in the sense the word was used 2000 years ago as a title for an evolved master of the knowledge. But no he was a human being not the creator of the universe. This should be easy to conclude if you believe he walked on earth as a man and have a minimal understanding of the age of the universe and the essential basic elements for life to exist.

 

[pearl]

EyeofOdin said: ↑
IMO Jesus was an illiterate, lower class, uneducated peasant who had the treasonous agenda to kick Rome out of Palestine and reestablish it as an independent nation. It was for this reason he was crucified.
Click to expand...
You should read the NT.


Uneducated meant unschooled in the rabbinical school. He read from Scripture in the temple. Rudolf Bultmann has that Jesus was an itinerant, eschatological Jewish prophet whose original disciples knew him only as such, and whom the post-apostolic Hellenistic church deified as the Son of God; "Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God...the kerygma of the Hellenistic church proclaimed Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ"

 

[DrTCH]

It is exceedingly common for the followers of a prophet or avatar to, after his passing, regard him or her as divine. Jesus never claimed personal divinity. In fact, he denied it. And, when it might appear that he is speaking as God, I consider it very arguable that he was--as prophets generally do--allowing the wisdom of Spirit to speak through him. Not only that, but the evidence is that the Holy Scripture has been edited and altered here and there, through the centuries.

 

[DrTCH]

Abrahamic Monotheism was the religion of the first gen saints of Jesus.

Including Christ.

This says it all. Really no more needs to be said unless the hagglers want to haggle.

So then what happened since then? How did we get off the narrow path?

It is exceedingly common for the followers of a prophet or avatar to, after his passing, regard him or her as divine. Jesus never claimed personal divinity. In fact, he denied it. And, when it might appear that he is speaking as God, I consider it very arguable that he was--as prophets generally do--allowing the wisdom of Spirit to speak through him. Not only that, but the evidence is that the Holy Scripture has been edited and altered here and there, through the centuries.


More about “getting off the path”:


It is my view that Paul, Augustine and Aquinas (not to mention figures like Zwingli and Calvin) serious warped the faith of Christianity, until it bore very little resemblance to the message of JC, e.g., as expressed in the Beatitudes. You also might want to recall that Paul was in serious disagreement with the Jerusalem church, so his version of the faith was by no means the "final word" on the subject. Then, we also have to issue of Christianity becoming the official religion of the Roman Empire in the fourth century C.E., which I consider very problematic.

 

[JM2C]

Sorry, I actually did not address the specific topic of is Jesus God or not. The answer to that is quite simple if we understand the historical meaning of the word God as it was used 2000 years ago. Jesus was a God yes, but today's use of the word God means the Infinite Omnipresence, the Great Spirit, the Creator / Creation itself, the almighty most high as in God. But at the time Jesus, whose real name was actually Jmmanuel Apollonius of Tyana, was a God. A God of Wisdom. The Word God was a title given to a human being who evolved to the highest level of wisdom and knowledge possible by a human being in physical form. He accepted this title because at the time it was an honor to reach this level of knowledge, wisdom, and love. But Jmmanuel never claimed to be God the creator of the Universe and all life. God of Wisdom is what he was so the answer is both. Yes he was a God, but in the sense the word was used 2000 years ago as a title for an evolved master of the knowledge. But no he was a human being not the creator of the universe. This should be easy to conclude if you believe he walked on earth as a man and have a minimal understanding of the age of the universe and the essential basic elements for life to exist.

Where did you learn all these things? Jmmanuel Apollonius of Tyana? Read Matthew 1:1-17

 

[goodhunter819]

Adam and Eve weren't 'perfect', that's why they ate of the apple and got kicked out of the Garden.

-Jesus in man form had 'man attrributes' besides being of the Spirit, this is all pretty clear in the Bible.

Why do you think the three wise men anointed Jesus in the manger? Whether you believe they anointed Jesus or not, the importance is that it means Jesus was "Divine" at birth, He didn't need a Baptism, or to 'figure out' the right "teachings" etc.

Wait do you mean to say that you believe the story of Adam & Eve? are you aware that most of the bible is built on metaphor? for a typical example that most people know (Revelations: And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, it had seven head and ten horns with ten crowns on it's horns. And written on each head were the names that blasphemed god) I do not How dose this happen to insult you but surly you see that there are no actual monsters with seven heads and this writing is a metaphor of a rising power, in this same sense surly you must see that the story of Adam & Eve and the forbidden fruit is also a metaphor for another meaning which took place during the birth of early man, according to biblical scriptures that is?

 

[nothead]

My view is that there are only a few outright inserts in the NT.

 

[nothead]

It is exceedingly common for the followers of a prophet or avatar to, after his passing, regard him or her as divine. Jesus never claimed personal divinity. In fact, he denied it. And, when it might appear that he is speaking as God, I consider it very arguable that he was--as prophets generally do--allowing the wisdom of Spirit to speak through him. Not only that, but the evidence is that the Holy Scripture has been edited and altered here and there, through the centuries.


More about “getting off the path”:


It is my view that Paul, Augustine and Aquinas (not to mention figures like Zwingli and Calvin) serious warped the faith of Christianity, until it bore very little resemblance to the message of JC, e.g., as expressed in the Beatitudes. You also might want to recall that Paul was in serious disagreement with the Jerusalem church, so his version of the faith was by no means the "final word" on the subject. Then, we also have to issue of Christianity becoming the official religion of the Roman Empire in the fourth century C.E., which I consider very problematic.

Paul was almost completely in line with the disciples, having a very temporary rift with a few over circumcision and Law extensions...having rebuked Peter, Peter himself realizing his former dream over this issue was for a good reason: that God has changed the requirements of the Law, allowing for eating differences, ceremonial and sacrificial allowances and change...now that the Perfect Lamb is slain, of what use is animal sacrifice? The Temple was allowed to be destroyed for just such a reason. LATER ECF's made Jesus God Almighty. The Bible never says he is.

 

[nothead]

EyeofOdin said: ↑
IMO Jesus was an illiterate, lower class, uneducated peasant who had the treasonous agenda to kick Rome out of Palestine and reestablish it as an independent nation. It was for this reason he was crucified.
Click to expand...
You should read the NT.


Uneducated meant unschooled in the rabbinical school. He read from Scripture in the temple. Rudolf Bultmann has that Jesus was an itinerant, eschatological Jewish prophet whose original disciples knew him only as such, and whom the post-apostolic Hellenistic church deified as the Son of God; "Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God...the kerygma of the Hellenistic church proclaimed Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ"

It seems you have a somewhat insidious view of the Christ, sir. We are not really of the same faith. Also you are not an inerrancist of scripture, unfortunate.

 

[JM2C]

The Temple was allowed to be destroyed for just such a reason.

NO temple, NO worship, and NO offering and sacrifices = NO Law of Moses. Do you think Gentiles today should follow certain parts of the Law of Moses?

LATER ECF's made Jesus God Almighty. The Bible never says he is.

The Son of God is God according to the bible.
“The bible never says”, that Gentile should follow the Law of Moses but you did.

 

[nothead]

NO temple, NO worship, and NO offering and sacrifices = NO Law of Moses. Do you think Gentiles today should follow certain parts of the Law of Moses?

What does the Bible say, sir? You know not how insidious your paradigm really is...the German Lutherans who allowed the Holocaust said just such a thing, when they affirm Grace over all...ignoring the FIRST COMMANDS from God even.

Thou shalt not covet, thine neighbor's house, possessions, wives or oxen (or whatever else they own).

Thou shalt not murder (kill).

Jn 5

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Acts 15

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

You see here, sir the Law of Moses is fulfilled in Christ, and is still AT CORE viable and alive for all believers, the Ten and the Shema and the Golden Rule all affirmed.

The Son of God is God according to the bible.

Num 23

God is not a man that he should lie, nor the Son of Man, that he should repent.

“The bible never says”, that Gentile should follow the Law of Moses but you did.

Neither the extended laws of men attributed to Moses, or the ceremonial Law which is now null and void, the sacrificial Law which Jesus transcends, or the dietary laws which are laxed.

But the Core of Law, the Shema, the Ten and the Golden Rule still for those who will shirk, claim 'grace' over and ignore...do this at your own risk, sinner.

Do you not know the greatest atrocity known to mankind IS the Holocaust, against neighbors who were not even their war enemies?

6 million Jews, at least. 50,000 gypsies how many retards handicapped and genetic mutants murdered? Up to 2,000,000 Polish CHRISTIANS, sir. Do you see the implications of your own theology? Stretch 6 million individuals side-by-side, and this goes from Austin, Tx my hometown, to NEW YORK, sir. Can you imagine this? I still cannot. Their blood STILL cries out from the ground, demanding REFORMATION and this only for the original Command by God to live in a love condition TO HIM, sir. I.e. the Shema.

 

[JM2C]

Do you not know the greatest atrocity known to mankind IS the Holocaust, against neighbors who were not even their war enemies?
6 million Jews, at least. 50,000 gypsies how many retards handicapped and genetic mutants murdered? Up to 2,000,000 Polish CHRISTIANS, sir. Do you see the implications of your own theology? Stretch 6 million individuals side-by-side, and this goes from Austin, Tx my hometown, to NEW YORK, sir. Can you imagine this? I still cannot. Their blood STILL cries out from the ground, demanding REFORMATION and this only for the original Command by God to live in a love condition TO HIM, sir. I.e. the Shema.

Non sequitur.
The question again is, do you think Gentiles today should follow certain parts of the Law of Moses?

 

[JM2C]

What does the Bible say, sir? You know not how insidious your paradigm really is...the German Lutherans who allowed the Holocaust said just such a thing, when they affirm Grace over all...ignoring the FIRST COMMANDS from God even.
Thou shalt not covet, thine neighbor's house, possessions, wives or oxen (or whatever else they own).
Thou shalt not murder (kill).

These parts of the Law of Moses was designed or intended by God for the Israelites only, and at that time only, and they are not for the Gentiles then, and especially today. What is so hard to understand here?

For example: In the book of Joshua, everytime the Israelites conquer a city in Canaan they don’t do nothing but kill all the people in that city and take their properties.

Jos 8:22 Then the Israelites who were inside the city came out and started killing the enemy from the rear. So the men of Ai were caught in a trap, and all of them died. Not a single person survived or escaped.
Jos 8:27 Only the cattle and the treasures of the city were not destroyed, for the Israelites kept these for themselves, as the LORD had commanded Joshua.

Now, the question is, were they violating two of God’s commandments in the Ten Commandments?
Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.
Ex 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.

NO! Because these two commandments are applicable only within the community of God and that is, the Israelites ONLY. Outside from this community, as long as God is commanding them, they can do anything to anyone without violating the Ten Commandments and The Book of the Covenant. You cannot separate the 10 from the Book of the Covenant.

Can you apply your own law, and that is, the Law of United States of America if you are in China?
IOW, Americans are under the law of USA, and Chinese under the law of China.

Israelites were under the Law of Moses, and Gentiles were not. As a Gentile, if you want to convert to Judaism you need to follow the WHOLE LAW OF MOSES because this Law of Moses cannot be broken into pieces like what you were doing today, you know, I’ll take a piece or two of the Law of Moses here and there, and MIX IT WITH grace from Christianity and make my own religion base on Christianity and the Law of Moses.

LAW AND GRACE DO NOT MIX WELL TOGETHER.

Gal 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by LAW have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from GRACE.

 

[JM2C]

Jn 5
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

If you want to follow the Law of Moses then you will judge according to the Law of Moses, and that is, THE WHOLE LAW OF MOSES. Do you think you could follow THE WHOLE LAW OF MOSES without a single fault? That’s what I think. Therefore, you failed and will be judge according to the Law of Moses or Moses/Law of Moses is your accuser.