Jesus - a person or a mode?

[Brian2]

@Eddi
Abraham is most likely the 'Heavenly father' referred to by Jesus in gospel quotations.

So when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray and He came out with "Our Father who is in heaven.........." are you saying that Jesus was teaching them to pray to Abraham?

 

[PureX]

I don't think that the idea that Jesus does not exist, now, except as a character in a story, is in the Bible either. It is something which again you have made up. It does not come from interpreting the Bible but from rejecting what it says.

There are no ideas in the Bible. The ideas are in our heads, conjured up as interpretations of the ink splotches on the paper pages. As an object, the Bible contains no information. No ideas. No truth but the truth of it's physical presence.

The Bible is not God. It is not the voice of God. It's just some cardboard, paper and ink. Any messages and meaning that we experience in relation to it is happening inside our minds. Not inside the book. And we need to understand this so we don't become crazy and presume the book to be some kind of magical entity. Or presume our ideas to be physical objects. No truth will come from our engaging in that kind of 'make believe' thinking. We need to see what things are before we can determine what they ought to mean to us.

 

[Brian2]

I believe that the Son of God Christ Michae, who is creator of this world exists from the eternal past. He has always been ancestral to the Father. He had a beginning in the eternal past, but we don't know when.

You should make up your mind, has he always existed or did he have a beginning?
You say that Son of God Christ Michael created this world and the Bible says that through Jesus ALL THINGS were created, with no exception, including angels and any other spirit or anything else.

Col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Assuming Jesus was/is a divine being, he still always regarded himself to be subservient to his father. Claims of divinity do not equate to equality to the source of all that is divine.

Jesus always was/is the Son of the Father. As the Son He submits to His Father even though He is equal to His Father and could have decided not to take the nature of a servant and become a man. (This is what Phil 2 teaches) Phil 2 gives Jesus as an example of submission of one equal to another.

 

[Brian2]

There are no ideas in the Bible. The ideas are in our heads, conjured up as interpretations of the ink splotches on the paper pages. As an object, the Bible contains no information. No ideas. No truth but the truth of it's physical presence.

The Bible is not God. It is not the voice of God. It's just some cardboard, paper and ink. Any messages and meaning that we experience in relation to it is happening inside our minds. Not inside the book. And we need to understand this so we don't become crazy and presume the book to be some kind of magical entity. Or presume our ideas to be physical objects. No truth will come from our engaging in that kind of 'make believe' thinking. We need to see what things are before we can determine what they ought to mean to us.

Yes the book is not some kind of magical entity and our ideas aren't physical objects.
But we can believe the teachings in the Bible without doing those things.

 

[exchemist]

So when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray and He came out with "Our Father who is in heaven.........." are you saying that Jesus was teaching them to pray to Abraham?

I agree that this seems perverse. What can "Thy kingdom come" possibly mean if it is Abraham who is being spoken to?

 

[Colt]

No

Just as God guided the development of The Holy Bible so that it represents his will so too did he guide the development of the Christian church

If God didn't want billions of people to believe in The Trinity then they wouldn't

The teaching is inspired by God

He wouldn't make it so that only small groups on the theological fringes would be the ones who are right

He wants to reach as many people as possible


Yes, two distinct persons who are both part of the same divine essence

In The Trinity God exists in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons

Absolutely three persons - but they are all of the same divine substance, which is unitary in nature

It was the evolution of religion that led to the development of the Bible. Church authorities made the claim that God wrote the Bible in order to establish their controlling authority.

Christians are born into pre-existing claims of the Trinnity, they weren't "reasoned" into it.

Christianity was a small group of people inside Judaism for a long time before it was adopted by the Romans.

 

[Eddi]

It was the evolution of religion that led to the development of the Bible.

No, it was human activity that led to its development

Not some impersonal abstract process

Human activity that was guided by God

Church authorities made the claim that God wrote the Bible in order to establish their controlling authority.

Which is something God approved/approves of

He want as many people as possible to be saved

An institutionalised religion would be better at this than a disorganised religion

Christians are born into pre-existing claims of the Trinnity, they weren't "reasoned" into it.

Well, I was reasoned into it

I used to be a proponent of Arianism

 

[Colt]

You should make up your mind, has he always existed or did he have a beginning?
You say that Son of God Christ Michael created this world and the Bible says that through Jesus ALL THINGS were created, with no exception, including angels and any other spirit or anything else.

Col 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.



Jesus always was/is the Son of the Father. As the Son He submits to His Father even though He is equal to His Father and could have decided not to take the nature of a servant and become a man. (This is what Phil 2 teaches) Phil 2 gives Jesus as an example of submission of one equal to another.

I don't need to make up my mind, the Son is a creation of the Father before this world existed. We just don't know when. God the Father, the first source and center, inhabits the circle of infinity. He is the one uncaused cause. The Son isn't the cause of his coming into existence. That doesn't make any sense on any level.

Saying ALL THINGS were created through Jesus doesn't mean that Jesus was the cause of himself.

 

[Colt]

No, it was human activity that led to its development

Not some impersonal abstract process

Human activity that was guided by God


Which is something God approved/approves of

He want as many people as possible to be saved

An institutionalised religion would be better at this than a disorganised religion


Well, I was reasoned into it

I used to be a proponent of Arianism

I believe in the Trinity as well, the Trinity is the creator of the Son(s) of God. God delegates powers and authority to his Sons.

 

[pearl]

One God-being who exists in the form of three distinct and enduring persons who are all consubstantial with each other by sharing the same God essence = trinitarianism

The stumbling block to making any sense of the Trinity seems to revolve around the misunderstood term, 'persons'. What it denotes to us now, is not the same thought as when the belief was formulated.

 

[Eddi]

I believe in the Trinity as well

Not in the way most people have, historically

You are not a Trinitarian in the strictest sense as it is most widely understood, as the following demonstrates:

the Trinity is the creator of the Son(s) of God. God delegates powers and authority to his Sons.

I disagree

Consider:

John 1:1
John 1:14
John 10:30

This as well:

Matthew 28:19

And if you believe in multiple Sons how can you claim to Trinitarian? If there were multiple Sons then the Godhead would have more than three members

 

[Colt]

Not in the way most people have, historically

You are not a Trinitarian in the strictest sense as it is most widely understood, as the following demonstrates:


I disagree

Consider:

John 1:1
John 1:14
John 10:30

This as well:

Matthew 28:19

And if you believe in multiple Sons how can you claim to Trinitarian? If there were multiple Sons then the Godhead would have more than three members

True, not in the traditional sense which emerged centuries after Jesus left.

Was Adam a son of God?

 

[Eddi]

Was Adam a son of God?

Premise 1: Adam was a human
Premise 2: All humans are God's children
Conclusion: Adam is one of God's children

If you want to call him "son" because of the above logic then yes, he's a son of God - a son of God (indefinite article)

But if you want to reserve the use of the word "son" for individuals who have come into existence through sexual union then that's fine too, I should think

Perhaps it is possible to use the same word for these two different meanings?

However, this doesn't really matter: There is only one "The Son Of God" (definite article) - that is a title, not a description.

And it is a title that belongs to one man: Jesus Christ

I could argue that I'm a son of God and that you're a son of God too

But neither of us are The Son Of God

 

[Colt]

Premise 1: Adam was a human
Premise 2: All humans are God's children
Conclusion: Adam is one of God's children

If you want to call him "son" because of the above logic then yes, he's a son of God - a son of God (indefinite article)

But if you want to reserve the use of the word "son" for individuals who have come into existence through sexual union then that's fine too, I should think

Perhaps it is possible to use the same word for these two different meanings?

However, this doesn't really matter: There is only one "The Son Of God" (definite article) - that is a title, not a description.

And it is a title that belongs to one man: Jesus Christ

I could argue that I'm a son of God and that you're a son of God too

But neither of us are The Son Of God

Yes, there are different types of sons of God in the celestial world. As humans are sons of God so would the celestial beings be sons of God, like Satan. Satan was a son of God invested with powers and authority which he abused. Satan was higher than us but less than God.

"The Son of God" was in reference to the expected deliver. Seers had known of his coming for ages, long before Abram. He is our Creator Son. The creator son would be the creator of subordinate sons of various orders.

There are other plural references to "sons of God" in the scripture books.


Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:2“Who is this who obscures My counsel

by words without knowledge? 3Now brace yourself like a man;

I will question you, and you shall inform Me.c4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Tell Me, if you have understanding.5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!

Or who stretched a measuring line across it?6 On what were its foundations set,

or who laid its cornerstone,7 while the morning stars sang together

and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[Brickjectivity]

So when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray and He came out with "Our Father who is in heaven.........." are you saying that Jesus was teaching them to pray to Abraham?

Its probably more complicated than what I would consider praying, but it is probably Abraham that is the Father in Heaven that he refers to. I don't think he means 'Pray' in the same way that people usually pray today for things and for miracles. Its probably more meditative and a commitment to be like Abraham. In many ways they live like him, because they don't have homes and must travel around. They have to give up their families, too. There are also twelve of them, just as Abraham has twelve sons. There are reasons to think the father in heaven is Abraham.

 

[PureX]

Yes the book is not some kind of magical entity and our ideas aren't physical objects.
But we can believe the teachings in the Bible without doing those things.

The "teachings" are in you, though, not in the book. That divine spirit that can heal us and save us from ourselves is not in the book, or in the characters or the stories in the book, or off in outer space. It's within our own hearts and minds. You claim we should not be "interpreting" those stories for ourselves, but I am pointing out that all reading is interpreting. Those stories are meant to be interpreted by us. In fact, we can't NOT interpret them. And we can't NOT interpret them according to our own personal understanding and experience of life, because that's all we have as our reference. Everyone is already doing what you were saying we should not do. Including even you.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So, this is my understanding:

One God who choses to make himself known in three different modes (liquid water, ice and steam analogy) = modalism

One God-being who exists in the form of three distinct and enduring persons who are all consubstantial with each other by sharing the same God essence = trinitarianism

Is Jesus Christ a person or a mode?

I'd say he's a person

In my book, Jesus is not God in any way shape size or form. He is a regular human being, a nice Jewish man.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So, this is my understanding:

One God who choses to make himself known in three different modes (liquid water, ice and steam analogy) = modalism

One God-being who exists in the form of three distinct and enduring persons who are all consubstantial with each other by sharing the same God essence = trinitarianism

Is Jesus Christ a person or a mode?

I'd say he's a person

Person.

 

[InChrist]

I

So, this is my understanding:

One God who choses to make himself known in three different modes (liquid water, ice and steam analogy) = modalism

One God-being who exists in the form of three distinct and enduring persons who are all consubstantial with each other by sharing the same God essence = trinitarianism

Is Jesus Christ a person or a mode?

I'd say he's a person

l believe Jesus is a Person; the eternal Son of God who became flesh/ human.

 

[Eddi]

Yes, there are different types of sons of God in the celestial world. As humans are sons of God so would the celestial beings be sons of God, like Satan. Satan was a son of God invested with powers and authority which he abused. Satan was higher than us but less than God.

"The Son of God" was in reference to the expected deliver. Seers had known of his coming for ages, long before Abram. He is our Creator Son. The creator son would be the creator of subordinate sons of various orders.

There are other plural references to "sons of God" in the scripture books.


Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said:2“Who is this who obscures My counsel

by words without knowledge? 3Now brace yourself like a man;

I will question you, and you shall inform Me.c4Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?

Tell Me, if you have understanding.5Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!

Or who stretched a measuring line across it?6 On what were its foundations set,

or who laid its cornerstone,7 while the morning stars sang together

and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here