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Featured Jesus - a person or a mode?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Eddi, Jan 23, 2023 at 3:53 AM.

  1. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    So, this is my understanding:

    One God who choses to make himself known in three different modes (liquid water, ice and steam analogy) = modalism

    One God-being who exists in the form of three distinct and enduring persons who are all consubstantial with each other by sharing the same God essence = trinitarianism

    Is Jesus Christ a person or a mode?

    I'd say he's a person
     
  2. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    I agree. But it's also important to keep in mind that Jesus is a character in a story, in our world. A story that intends to reveal an ideology based on the concept of Christ. That is God's divine spirit being given a human form. And that as humans ourselves, we also have that divine spirit within us. And that if we will set our self-centered fears and desires aside, and allow ourselves to embody that divine spirit with us, we will be healed and saved from ourselves.

    It's not the character in the story that matters but the ideal that character and his story embody and represent. Our focus needs to be on that ideal, not on the worship of some character in a religious story.
     
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  3. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    Mystery: in other words its not something determined through debate. The problem with modalism is that it overturns the mystery by defining too much. It erases the thing you're supposed to discover. Do you want pat answers, or do you want to grow in mind to the point of your absolute capacity? Do you want a master, someone who tells you what to think? I can give a better answer than modalism, and then you can become my servant. How does that sound?

    Also: modalism is incorrect.
     
  4. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Jesus would be a Son OF the Trinity, not the second person. The Trinity is an indivisible unity. The Son of the Trinity can't leave and go on sabbatical as a material being, the Trinity would then collapse.
     
  5. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    The Word (Jesus) became incarnate for a while and nothing bad happened
     
  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I'd say He's a person.
     
  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    There is no such ideal in the Bible. You seem to be throwing out the Bible and replacing it with something you have made up about Jesus and the gospel.
     
  8. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    There is nothing in the Bible but words and stories. We have to interpret them to find any meaning in them. Jesus does not exist, now, except as a character in a story, and the idea in your mind that you created by interpreting that story. It's important to be honest about this.
     
  9. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that the idea that Jesus does not exist, now, except as a character in a story, is in the Bible either. It is something which again you have made up. It does not come from interpreting the Bible but from rejecting what it says.
     
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  10. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus did not go into non existence when He became a man. He remained equal to His Father in His divine nature and took on Himself the nature of a servant also when He became a man and the one who was sent to become a servant to do exactly what His God and Father said.
    His Father became His God when He became a man (see Psalm 22:10) but He remained in His Father and His Father remained in Him when He was a man and the two of them remained one (one thing).
     
  11. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Because he wasn't/isn't the second person of the Trinity. The Trinity always acts as One. Jesus never claimed at any time to be the second person of the Trinity. He never used the word. Beliefs were projected onto Jesus after he left.
     
    #11 cOLTER, Jan 23, 2023 at 6:13 AM
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2023 at 6:20 AM
  12. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Jesus never claimed equality with the Father. He was subject to the will of the Father while on earth obviously. But as a divine Son of God the closest we can get to seeing the Father is in his Son Christ Michael.

    As the Trinity developed in Christianity it required quite a lot of confusing and contradictory conjecture and speculation.
     
  13. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    Then how come in the bible when Jesus got baptised God's voice boomed down from the heavens and the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove?

    Looks like The Trinity acting as three to me:
    • Jesus in the river with John The Baptist
    • God addressing everyone from Heaven
    • The Holy Spirit appearing as a dove
    Also, in Matt 27:46 when Jesus was on the cross he cried out to God......

    Looks like The Trinity not "acting as one" to me - The Son was directly addressing The Father

    Also, if you look at the bible you will see that there are many passages, which when taken together lend credence to the notion of The Trinity

    What Does the Bible Say About Trinity?

    Also, look at John 1:1 :D
     
    #13 Eddi, Jan 23, 2023 at 6:27 AM
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2023 at 6:43 AM
  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It is easy to see that since all things that were made were made through Jesus, the Son, the Word (John 1:3, Col 1:16) that means that Jesus was not made/created, and has always been.
    Do you think that the Father and Jesus have always existed and that Jesus is not equal to the Father?

    Phil 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

    It certainly looks as if the Bible teaches that the Son is equal to God His Father.
    That is the sort of Son He is. Uncreated, the one who comes directly from His Father.
     
  15. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    There are no ideas in the Bible. The ideas are in our heads, conjured up as interpretations of the ink splotches on the paper pages. As an object, the Bible contains no information. No ideas. No truth but the truth of it's physical presence.

    The Bible is not God. It is not the voice of God. It's just some cardboard, paper and ink. Any messages and meaning that we experience in relation to it is happening inside our minds. Not inside the book. And we need to understand this so we don't become crazy and presume the book to be some kind of magical entity. Or presume our ideas to be physical objects. No truth will come from our engaging in that kind of 'make believe' thinking. We need to see what things are before we can determine what they ought to mean to us.
     
  16. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    Because the Father was pleased in the work of his Son up until the day of the beginning of his public work which was inaugurated by appearing for Johns baptism. The Son of God came down from heaven and lived among us. He lived anonymously up until his public preaching. He was a mystery and became the source of much speculation by his followers after he left. The Christian concept of the Trinity developed after Jesus left by people who were trying to make sense of how a One God could have divine children.

    Matthew 26:39

    And going a little farther he fell on his face rand prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” I and you denote (2) different persons.
     
    #16 cOLTER, Jan 23, 2023 at 7:07 AM
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2023 at 7:14 AM
  17. cOLTER

    cOLTER Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the Son of God Christ Michae, who is creator of this world exists from the eternal past. He has always been ancestral to the Father. He had a beginning in the eternal past, but we don't know when.

    Assuming Jesus was/is a divine being, he still always regarded himself to be subservient to his father. Claims of divinity do not equate to equality to the source of all that is divine.
     
  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    @Eddi
    Abraham is most likely the 'Heavenly father' referred to by Jesus in gospel quotations. Abraham is the father of many nations, whose children are like the stars in the sky. (See Genesis 15:5) Abraham is the one who puts away war. He refuses to kidnap people. He abolishes idolatry. He is the father of all who believe in peace. Cain is the father of all murderers. All murders were in Cain, the first murderer. All peaceful people are children of Abraham. When they die they go to Abraham's bosom, meaning they are counted as his.

    In most scripture the concept of a father is very important. A father is a highly respected and revered person who contained you before you were born. All of his potential descendants are in him. A reference in Hebrews refers to this when it says Levi's descendants paid a tithe to Melchizedek through the tithe paid by Abraham. There are other such references, too. Abraham being the father of many nations who are as the stars in heaven: he is the heavenly father.

    I'm not saying Abraham is 'God'. That is an entirely different thing. Both God and the Trinity are philosophically derived concepts. Abraham might be referred to as a theos occasionally in scripture, depending upon what is being said. Other people are, too, such as all of Israel's judges. It is not always reserved for the same thing, so the translation of theos may be confusing when reading an English verse.

    All arguments by Paul for Christianity aim at claiming that Christians are children of Abraham. If he proves we are children of Abraham then he considers his case made. Consider Abraham and the Bosom of Abraham, both of which appear in the gospels directly. These are 'Heavenly father' 'Abrahams bosom'. There is no other mention of a heavenly father in the old scriptures. The LORD never calls himself Israel's father, except in a sense of adoption. "Today I have become your father," and that only happens in Psalm 2. So if we also are adopted, then what is the difference? That is Paul's theme.

    Have you ever heard protestants speak of the of Catholics praying to Saints? What about when Jesus prays to Abraham in Matthew 6:9 ? How is that any different? I see that it is the same thing.

    All of the arguing we have about whether Jesus is a person or not comes from general ignorance among all people. There is no need to argue. Almost nobody anywhere knows what's really going on in my opinion.
     
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  19. Eddi

    Eddi Eddifying
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    No

    Just as God guided the development of The Holy Bible so that it represents his will so too did he guide the development of the Christian church

    If God didn't want billions of people to believe in The Trinity then they wouldn't

    The teaching is inspired by God

    He wouldn't make it so that only small groups on the theological fringes would be the ones who are right

    He wants to reach as many people as possible

    Yes, two distinct persons who are both part of the same divine essence

    In The Trinity God exists in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons

    Absolutely three persons - but they are all of the same divine substance, which is unitary in nature
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    So you agree with what I said about your ideas not coming from the Bible.

    So you have your idea of what the Bible is and I have mine and we come to our respective conclusions about what is written in the Bible based on those ideas.
     
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