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Jesus a Messiah?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by jade0887, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. jade0887

    jade0887 Member

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    You're right, I do have a purpose. That purpose is to get people to study why the Jews reject Jesus. Most people know that most of the Jews do reject Jesus but, they don't know why. I'm just showing them why and refining my arguments against Jesus' messiahship in the process. Besides, finding out why the Jews reject Him is an exciting and informative journey. I reject Jesus like they do and I hope others do as well. Again, any specific comments on the Karaite links?
    Jamie:)
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    So, at least we know that you lie.

    That cult site has nothing to do with the Karaites, and the Karaites have little to do with normative Judaism. You're simply layering one form of dishonesty upon another. It's a transparently cowardly method of "debate".
     
  3. jade0887

    jade0887 Member

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    Deut. 32:8,
    The words "point" and "purpose" don't mean the same thing. I ran out of arguments, mentioned Karaite Judaism, a legitimate branch of Judaism, and their rejection of Jesus in order to solicite comments. My purpose being to get others to reject Jesus. Granted, I could've said things better. Clearly, that Karaite site claims to be Karaite. Why use disrespectful language like "pollution" and "cult"? ANY COMMENTS ABOUT THE LINKS WITH NO PERSONAL ATTACKS?
    Jamie:tsk:
     
  4. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Have you ever studied why many Jews (including compatriots of Jesus) accepted him AS the Messiah?

    Just wondering if you actually checked out both angles or just jumped to the first conclusion that met your fancy?
     
  5. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 7:14

    Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (1917 JPS Tanach)

    Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (World English Bible)

    Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (American Standard Version 1901)

    Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (King James Version)

    Doesn't the Hebrew term mean someone who's never been 'married'? And since those in bible times weren't supposed to commit adultery, 'young woman' signafied being unwed, single, virgin, etc.
     
  6. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Have you checked out wikipedia?

    Karaite Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism)
    Karaite Judaism is a Jewish denomination characterized by reliance on the Tanakh as the sole scripture, and rejection of the Oral Law (the Mishnah and the Talmuds) as halakha (Legally Binding, i.e. required religous practice). The word "Karaite" comes from the Hebrew word &#1511;&#1512;&#1488;&#1497;&#1501; (&#7730;&#601;r&#257;&#702;îm or Kara'iym), meaning "Readers (of Scripture)". This name was chosen by the adherents of Karaite Judaism to distinguish themselves from the adherents of Orthodox Judaism.
     
  7. goodjewishboy

    goodjewishboy Shalom!

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  8. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    2 Peter 3:1-13 (World English Bible)

    3:1 This is now, beloved, the second letter that I have written to you; and in both of them I stir up your sincere mind by reminding you; 3:2 that you should remember the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and the commandments of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior: 3:3 knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts, 3:4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” 3:5 For this they willfully forget, that there were heavens from of old, and an earth formed out of water and amid water, by the word of God; 3:6 by which means the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished. 3:7 But the heavens that now are, and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. 3:8 But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 3:11 Therefore since all these things will be destroyed like this, what kind of people ought you to be in holy living and godliness, 3:12 looking for and earnestly desiring the coming of the day of God, which will cause the burning heavens to be dissolved, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 3:13 But, according to his promise, we look for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

    Seed here means followers not offspring.
    Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand: (JPS Tanach 1917)
    Last Days
    1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (KJV)

    2 Timothy 3:1 But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. 3:2 For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3:3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 3:4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 3:5 holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power therefore. From these also turn away.

    3:6 For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts, 3:7 ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (American Standard Version 1901)

    -------
    Both links make alot of assumptions and also don't take into account many cross-referenced accounts that confirm and explain the main points they have a problem with.

    Take for instance the notion that the apostles and disciples would be saved by Jesus. That site speaks in literal terms when Jesus was talking about everlasting life through resurrection.

    Also that site is impatient sounding. I remember some friends in Austin, TX partying thinking that Yahweh was about to destroy everyone in the promised land region because they are confused that it, the promised land means just the area. There are other scriptures that show that promised land is like saying park. One scripture set explains the area in detail while another says look this way and that as to say 'as far as the eye can see' perhaps or maybe, as it says in Revelation that God will do away with everyone not on his side, the whole earth would then become the 'promised land'.

    Which brings me back to my Judaism friends. They are under the misconception that the messiah will do like the old days. Bow down to God, say a prayer asking if the surrounding peoples will be given into the Jews hands for war and then annihilate everyone that isn't a Jew in the area. Which sounds like the people in bible times who rejected Jesus. They wanted the replacement champion in the line of David. But the prophecy that called the messiah the 'prince of peace' showed that the messiah wouldn't be like David. No rock, sling and one bad guy to take over the promised land.

    I could probably go on and on about those links but then we'd end up with a website and not a forum thread. It might even exceed my "Christmas & Santa..." thread because I'd be teaching you the whole bible.
     
  9. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    When he atoned sin he becamse a redeemer. And he was resurrected and will return to turn the world into a new earth as it says in Revelation.

    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----
    The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!
    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----

    The genealogies that are listed in the Gospels or Matthew, Mark, Luke & John take into account concubines, and multiple wives. The line is complete and is done from two different angles to show without a doubt that the person that came, Jesus, was the messiah. Lineage of Mary was listed as well as Joseph.

    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----
    To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.
    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----

    Or a biological mother who is in the line of Judah.

    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----
    Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?
    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----

    Is Isaiah talking about Israel the person (Jacob) or the place?

    Isaiah 11:12 And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the dispersed of Israel, and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth. (JPS Tanach 1917)

    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----
    At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!
    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----

    They have this confused with an actual building. There's an account in the old testament where God states that the Temple isn't important as obedience to his commandments. There's also a scripture that states that "God does not dwell in man made temples". There was also a prophecy that stated that the temple would be destroyed. As I understand the scriptures, the Jews began to idolize the building more than once and that's why it got destroyed twice if I remember correctly.

    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----
    Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?
    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----

    For this they are talking about Micah's prophecy which is also Isaiah's prophecy. Plowshares, pruining shears. The UN wall, etc. How war will be no more. Yet there is a prophecy in Revelation that states that God will crush all that oppose Him and that they remaining people will be those who will no longer know or do war. Which both prophecies in Isaiah and Micah state about God and not Jesus the Son of God.

    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----
    The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.
    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----

    Jesus explains the definition of "love your neighbor as yourself and love God with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength" is what the whole Law and Prophets meant. He also goes on to state that it's, the Law, should be a given in peoples lives by now. Part of the messiah prophecy that the real followers would be there to receive the messiah. There are a couple of scriptures that tell that the Law ended with the death of the messiah.

    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----
    there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.
    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----

    As no time frames have ever been listed in the scriptures, only God knows, as Jesus stated, when things will occur. Take the Exodus for example. Why did God wait over 400 years to deliver the Hebrews from the Egyptians after Joseph died? Because God was waiting for something or someone. Moses. God must be waiting for something again, which Jesus stated that no one on earth, or in heaven or even himself, but God alone knows the day of destruction and total redemption.

    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----
    All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

    And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

    ----[quote: jews-jesus-index.html]----

    "my servant David shall be their prince forever" is impossible since David is dead. And the tabernacle as I recall could be anywhere, altar or out in the open like some of the scriptures show. "God tabernacled with them." No necessarily in a building. Just with them. In the end the world will be totaled like Sodom and Gomorrah. Where do they expect God to tabernacle with them? In what standing structure? Does God require one? What do the scriptures show about every account where God tabernacled with his chosen people?

    The nations that are left over will certainly know God because that's all who will be left over from Armageddon. Those who know God and follow his commandments.
     
  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    You need to give some thought to just how pathetic this sounds.
     
  11. precept

    precept Member

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    The answer to your query is found in your own question.

    Jesus as human was of the tribe of Judah just by virtue of His earthly virgin mother's being of said tribe. An Israelite's lineage is determined by the father; and since Jesus is without benefit of an earthly father, He becomes a member of the tribe of Judah by choice.

    The "scepter" was to be kept in "symbolic" trust in the tribe of Judah, until its Heavenly, Rightful Owner, "Shiloh" comes. Jesus then chose to become a human member of said tribe of Judah, transferring the symbolic Davidic earthly rule, of earthly Israelites to His Heavenly rule of Israelites saved as the father of all true Israelites, Abraham is saved; by faith. He then takes His Rightful Godly rolership as King of all earthly kings[including king David] and Lord of all earthly lords. And because His kingdom is not of this world;then neither is His origin to be understood as that of an earthly human tribe.

    Your argument about the meanig of virgin, must in context be defined as defined by God to the Israelites. as is clear in Hebrew scripture.

    Deuteronomy 22:15 makes it the responsibility of the parents of the virgin; who now just married, must provide her parents with the evidence of a broken hymen[blood] on the occasioin of her first sexual experience. This evidence is life and or death to the virgin if her husband refuses to keep her as his wife, in the event that she wasn't a virgin when she married him. The context therefore of the term virgin is clear to all except those who are in error in the understanding of the clear teaching of scripture.

    Jesus being conceived in the womb of a virgin; is a conception wihout benefit of human sexual activity because Mary was a virgin in the "Israelite's sense of the meaning of the word, "virgin".


    precept
     
  12. goodjewishboy

    goodjewishboy Shalom!

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    This is taken from www.jewsforjudaism.org

    besides, there is a hebrew word for virgin and it's not al-mah. The word for virgin is be-tu-lah.
     
  13. precept

    precept Member

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    Saul, a member of the the highest of Jewish authority, the Sanhedrin, and a Pharisee[ the Pharisees were the ruling authority in Judaism] Paul saw Jesus as the promised Messiah....aaand Saul who was also verse in Torah; and like his fellow Pharisees interpreted Isaiah and other prophets in reference to the coming Messiah as referring to a human; a human later identified by subsequent Jewish leaders as referring to the Jewish king Hezekiah.

    Even the disciples of Jesus found it difficult to accept Jesus as Messiah--Afterall "Messiah was to restore the Jewish kingdom to its former glory as enjoyed under king David"---and this being so Messiah wouild not have allowed Himself to be taken and killed. Peter echoed this disappointment when he denied knowing Jesus, after seeing that Jesus was going to be condemned to death.
    So "goodjewishboy" you are not original in your belief that Jesus was not the Messiah; even His own disciples thought so as well; and because he was now dead.

    Unlike you and other unbelieving Jews, the disciples while disillusioned, left room for an explanation of their dissilusionment.

    Jesus, after being resurrected[as David and other old Testament prophets]had prophesied; went to
    the aid of His disillusioned disciples as two of His disciples were on their way to Emmaus..."And beginning at Moses and all the prophets He explained to them the things concerning Himself".....

    Saul also, with the other members of the Sanhedrin, had mis-interpreted scriptural references about Messiah, and had joined with the other Jewish leaders in condemning Jesus as an imposter to the Messianic title....He then joined with the Jewish leadership in persecuting and putting to death the followers of Jesus. It wasn't until one of Jesus' followers, Annanias explained to Saul in Damascus, and using Torah to do so; proving to Saul that Jesus was indeed Messiah; it was only then that Saul saw his error; and repented of the evil he brought on the followers of Jesus; and converted and became a follower of Jesus himself.

    Official Judaism, mis-interpreted God's intentions in singling out Abraham as the father of the nation He chose to represent Him on earth. Abraham's command from God to sacrifice his only sonshould have been a clue to official Judaism that their representation of God in ceremonial sacrifices of "lambs without blemish and without spot" was an enacment of the supreme sacrifice of God Himself[He is without blemish and He is without spot]. The Passover ceremony of the Israelites deliverance from Eygptian bondage; was only the antitype of the eventual deliverance from the bondage of sin of all "Israelites"[redeemed humanity].---and like the ancient Israelites when they were delivered after the eating of the first passover meal...so also was redeemed humanity delivered from the bondage of death to the sinner, when after eating the passover meal with His disciples, Jesus, our Redeemer, the Holy God, without blemish and without spot, gave His life for the sins of humanity....And since Saul, a member of the Sanhedrin can discover this truth, then so can also all "goodJewishpeople" discover this truth as well; if they like Saul accept the true teaching of Torah.


    precept
     
  14. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Citation?
     
  15. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    **Long sigh.....*:rolleyes:
    http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6327
     
  16. precept

    precept Member

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    "Deut..." Do you see
    the wall or just the color the wall is painted in? Do you see just the entrance to the house, or do you see the entire structure--The Whole House?


    precept
     
  17. precept

    precept Member

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    The scriptures do not place Paul as a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin neither do the scriptures disclaim Paul's membership in this body.

    The scriptures none-the-less place Paul as a student of the Pharisee, Gamaliel...a doctor of the law Acts 5:34.

    precept
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    And you stupidly assume that all students of Gamaliel were members of the Sanhedrin, then pretentiously pawn this off as fact. :rolleyes:
     
  19. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Jesus christ fullfilled many outstanding messianic prophecies in the hebrew scriptures. these were regarding his early life, his ministry and his betrayal and death.
     
  20. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    They don't allow people to practice opthamology without a license on this forum... :D
     
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