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Jesus a Child Killer?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Dezzie, Nov 18, 2010.

  1. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    No sir i dont believe he ever has

    no we would not

    I believe he didnt number anything.

    Are you a young earth guy? or someone who believes the earth is flat?
     
  2. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    No -not a young earth guy -don't believe the earth is flat (except some parts of the midwest). I believe the earth existed long before the creation of Adam (the bible does not say the earth is only 6,000 years old, but that's another post in another thread). Adam was the first "man" by biblical definition (made in the image and likeness of God, with the potential to become like God) -not by scientific definition.

    Sin is the transgression of the law -the law is the ten commandments, and various applicable judgments under the commandments. I'll just give you the easiest example... "Thou shalt not kill". Of course, men die of "natural" causes, but all life on earth is threatened by the creation of nuclear weapons (among others) with the intent to kill. Breaking the other commandments can lead to the desire to kill, war -and eventually complete self-annihilation.

    Since many would bring up the fact that David and others killed as instructed by God at this point.... a little perspective...

    When God first began working with Israel, he told them that if they obeyed, they would not need to war. They continually disobeyed, so God gave them over to war. God did instruct David and others in war after this, but no sin was laid to their charge when doing only as instructed by God. If they had continued to return to God, God would have relented of this judgment against them.

    Still, sin obviously leads to death.

    The fact that you do not believe God has ever brought anyone back to life does not mean he can not or has not -but your doubt is understandable.
     
    #62 Etritonakin, Nov 20, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  3. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    It definitely makes death seem less dramatic (though it's still the same experience) -such that those with trrue faith do not mourn as others...
    1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    What many believe "hell" to be -and misunderstandings about who will go there -for how long, etc., are definitely absurd, un-Godly -and not what is actually written in the bible.

    Some will be cast into the lake of fire -but not the sort who would be missed.

    The beast and false prophet are the first to be cast there -and this hasn't happened yet (though they are both most likely alive on earth at present).

    Satan will be cast there 1,000 years later. Only after this will all who have ever lived and died -who were not made immortal the first resurrection -be resurrected to the "judgment" -and many will receive eternal life then.

    In Gehenna -used to describe the lake of fire -God is able to destroy both body and spirit...
    Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul (spirit) : but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul (spirit) and body in hell (gehenna).

    ..but it is also true that it doesn't have to happen right away -and that some who are cast there are not necessarily cast there permanently. "For ever" as translated from the bible -can mean without end, but does not necessarily.

    There is much more to it -It's not so simple a subject.
     
    #63 Etritonakin, Nov 20, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  4. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    fair enough. :)

    theres a point I draw the line to converse with.

    By your words you treat the bible more as a guide. Am I safe to say that?
     
  5. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    I don't know how to answer because I don't know exactly what you mean.

    More as a guide than what?
     
  6. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    The bible is a guide.

    It is a collection of writings God compiled by using various human agents (good, evil, wise, ignorant).

    It serves many purposes.

    It is a guide toward eternal life, and toward obedience to, and understanding of, the Father and Son -who are able to give eternal life.

    It is a written history of the experiences of the Israelites. Some may seem ridiculous to us now, but they were not contested in their time -and we are about to experience things far greater and more strange than any experienced and recorded previously (Though they are recorded in the bible as things that would eventually take place. Many prophecies have already come to pass, but most actually concern the times in which we now live).

    It includes a record of direct quotes from God and his Son, and prophecies given by them to be recorded by men -which declare beforehand what will take place. It serves as a continual record before us -regardless of whether or not we read it or understand it -of the fact that he did so. It includes only a very brief overview of what took place before the creation of Adam -only what is important to God's purpose for man.

    God is able to prevent the understanding thereof -and reveal it -and does so in accordance with his plan. He knows very well the power of information and timing.
     
    #66 Etritonakin, Nov 20, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  7. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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  8. Etritonakin

    Etritonakin Well-Known Member

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    This is a slightly edited post of mine from another thread -in case you haven't read it....

    Anyway -bible prophecy contains more details about what will happen from now until the return of Christ than probably any other time.
    I will expound later -and have in other threads -but here's a quick overview.... (Yes -it says this stuff below in the bible -apart from a very few details which have already happened/are already historical fact -though perhaps not widely known/ and/or I specify are probable/possible, etc.)

    *Nazi SS officers (Aryan -Assyrian in bible prophecy) -when faced with imminent defeat -funnel resources out of Germany -plan to unite Europe -and do so successfully -working behind the scenes of the European common market/European Commmunity/European Union -develop/gain access to massive physical, monetary, intelligence and military resources -including access to nuclear weapons through other EU members -and gain leverage over Britain and the U.S. (and others) through the corporate/industrial sector and various underworlds. (Historical facts -also foretold in the bible)

    (A small bit of speculation as to "how" based on actual events and personal experiences in the following section -but the fact remains)
    They then take focus off their activities by helping plan/facilitating 9-11, use their influence in the U.S. to affect policy (even elections) so as to divide our forces -ensuring, at the very least, great difficulty in Afghanistan, and an open-ended commmitment in Iraq (not to mention bleeding our economy, dividing the nation, weakening/wearying the military) -all the while suppressing those in the US who are wise to them using a network of technologies (digital transition, etc!) they were instrumental in building (the capabilities of which most do not comprehend) and people they have cultivated to act in fear and without question ("made" in a broad sense) -even manipulating those who think they are acting against them by organizing the "resistance" themselves.... further leveraging our economy, etc., etc..... (and doing similar things to a lesser degree at present in Israel -and to Israel through their dealings with the U.S.).

    Much of the world stands against Iran.... including our military industrial complex and those associated (which is the REAL reason [among others] we went into Iraq -though it's still a trap) (Daniel 11:14)... and the EU. (Happening now)

    Britain is compromised in sovereignty and as a US ally by association with the EU. The US and Britain increasingly leave Israel to themselves even making decisions which strengthen their enemies. (Ezekiel 17 [11:21], Isaiah 9:21)

    The EU takes an interest in the mideast peace process -and increasingly displaces the US in said process -though not all in the EU have peace in mind. Israel and Britain seek help from German-led EU (Hos 5:13, Daniel 8:25)

    Russia increases in power and influence -plays both sides (EU/US) in self-interest. (Ezekiel 38)

    Iran/radical Islam push at EU -EU is stirred up. (Daniel 11:40)

    Israel is attacked by its neighbors/invaded. This conflict lasts 3 1/2 years. (Isaiah 29, Rev 11:2, Zec 14:2)

    (Some minor speculation as to details in the following section, though, again, the fact remains)
    US and strongest allies' economies are toppled by leverage, etc.- also nuked at about the same time as the above attack begins (probably by terrorists who have been aided by some behind the scenes of the EU). Chaos ensues -some eventually rounded up and taken to Europe as slave labor -similar to WWII. (actual Nazi presence will most likely be as minimal as possible -at least until the proverbial jig is up -though they'll probably be there to gloat as they make our travel arrangements [which has already begun -ahem]) (Habakkuk 1:9, Zep 3:1, Isiaiah 10, Deu 28, Jer 10 [:17-18], Isa 11:11-16, Isaiah 7:17-20 -and many others...)

    EU forces pass over Iran (and friends) like a whirlwind -their forces continue to the holy land. (Daniel 11:40-43)

    Russia and China will plan to join the fray, but the EU will strike them first -Russia and China field soldiers numbering in the hundreds of millions -and will almost completely cripple the EU. (Daniel 11:44-45, Rev 16:12, Rev 9:16, Ezekiel 17:10)

    Russian/Chinese forces also move toward holy land. Russia desires to wind up with a bunch of new land and other spoil -aren't very succussful. (Ezekiel 38:10-13 / 39:11)

    Forces are gathered in the valley of Megiddo to war with each other. (Rev 16:13-16)

    Assyrian over EU forces sets up destruction at Jerusalem (possibly a tactical nuke -maybe not -the final final solution). (Luke 21:20, Matt 24:15, Mar 13:14, Dan 11:31, Dan 12:11)

    Those in Judea who heed the warning of Christ flee when they see Jerusalem compassed by armies.

    Jerusalem is essentially blown up -by whatever means (abomination of desolation).

    Christ returns in power and glory -mount of Olives splits in two and his feet stand on it.

    Forces gathered in Megiddo to war with each other leave off doing so to attack the returning Christ.

    Christ and his angelic army (Joel 2, etc.) destroy the armies of the earth which fight him.

    Those dead in Christ are raised immortal -the living in Christ meet them in the air and are also changed
    -reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years -the rest of the dead live not again until the thousand years are finished -many receive eternal life after that judgment.

    Christ sets up his rule on earth -and then the good part begins!!!!!!!!
    Nature of animal life will be changed to not harm -desolate places will be made fertile, etc..
    Man will no longer learn war -except that there will only be one more attempt at war by man after the thousand years -but it will be put down by fire. (Rev 20:7-9)

    I will add more scripture references later.
     
    #68 Etritonakin, Nov 20, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  9. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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  10. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    lets note this is only your opinion and you may want to realize your religion is only 1/3 of the population, this i believe makes ever single point you make invalid

    maybe you should back this statement up a little with a few bible verses that explain what satan can and cannot do. In my opinion he is a myth introduced as a scare tactic.

    pretty arrogent ancient statement for modern man to hold on to, dont you think??? I know I am not a condemned man and I dont believe %95 of what the OT or NT states.

    not just in my opinion but the pope himself says that evolution is a science worth taking notice, in my opinion creation is a myth

    thankfully creation soon will not be taught in any public schools
     
    #70 outhouse, Nov 20, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
  11. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    #71 roli, Nov 21, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010
  12. Blackdog22

    Blackdog22 Well-Known Member

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  13. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    it means its not as common as you think and you have the minority view.

    funny christians run from the OT when they want but use it when deemed its needed.

    doesnt matter still easy to refute with its mythical nature in my opinion.

    first this was in context to "satan blinds the mind"

    PLEASE provide refference, you post links with satan but no substance. :shrug:

    im sorry but there is no jesus court hearings in reality land.

    Bud this is the funniest thing you have ever said :D

    your saying creation has to evolve again because first, young earth failed, then creation failed and ID has failed.

    because humans cant comprehend all of nature %100 doesnt mean evolution is faulty.

    evolution is solid science and not up for debate anymore. creation has failed and will go the way side the same way as its earlier notion of young earth and the sun revolves around the earth myths
     
  14. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    #74 roli, Nov 23, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  15. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    im sorry but scholars have a pretty even split on the kingdom of god, weather it was preached as being here now [when jesus lived] and when it was coming. It states and i know you know this, that it would be with in in a generation.

    since most of the bible contradicts itself you can read into it however you want, scholars have a different view.

    that is wrong and you know it, that is dangerous thinking.

    atleast your keeping the humor alive :)

    your reading the script wrong in my opinion

    ancient man was not talking about the future and could not see into it.

    it is

    no one has a clue. even by your beliefs,, very little is said about heaven and hell

    You seem to under estimate the fictitious nature of the bible, much of the old testement were story's orally handed down through generations after generations to the point the storys are no where near what really took place. take the story of david or solomos temple. It was claimed that he had over a 1000 wives yet there was barely 1000 people living in the whole region.

    there is very little real history that can be taken from ancient storys, to base a religion or two off of and then claim truths after 2000-3000 years. 3000 years in solomons storys. this was just one example of what historians and scholars know that took place. theres much much more and they all play out in this fashion.

    You get to the new testement and all unknown authors and of those many copied one another plus as the scrolls aged, many of the ends would wear off and the scribes had to forge the endings in a few.


    ANYWAY thast not the point of this thread, this thread deals with how the fiction was created as a scare tactic to help round up beleivers in a time when pagan beliefs ran wild, this form of hellenistic judaism moved foward to appeal to more people then just those that lived in judea where that tribe started. ALL in my opinion,, but ment to primitively scare pagans into belief




    like it or not the creation myth failed, its not coming back. As our current children are taught science properly the myths will slowly fade. Evolution is solid and growing. By geographic location alone do you hold onto this belief. here in the US creation still hold strong compared to most other country's in the western world. Thankfully creation is banned from %99.9 of the schools
     
    #75 outhouse, Nov 24, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010
  16. Thesavorofpan

    Thesavorofpan Is not going to save you.

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    Okay lets look at these verses again. Jezebel is being used as an allegory for a person in power at the location to which this part of the letter is being written too. When he says that he will strike her children dead he means that person in power (who is abusing that power) followers will also die. So in wrap up these verses mean. Someone in power was abusing it. God gave that person a chance to to change. Said person didn't change and thus God had to remove them.
     
  17. averageJOE

    averageJOE zombie

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  18. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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  19. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    no such thing or place in my opinion, i will not rely on ancient mans fiction to base my life upon.

    this is exactly why faith is evil. This is the same kind of faith that drives planes into tall buildings and straps bombs to find crowded areas to play. This is the same kind of faith that murders abortion doctors and its the same faith that murdered countless people through out history. in my opinion

    do you read what you type sir????

    by reason and being rational is why mankind advances, I hope you keep your dangerous talk to the internet only.

    I wont get into your lack of history VS faith arguement. faith is belief without evidence.

    wichful thinking dont you think???

    yes the evil of the bible is a scare tactic in my opinion, god is obviously a jealous childlike god with the passages as presented.

    hey you said something I agree with!! hurray hurray!!! lol

    well your wrong there by leaps and bounds. My uncle runs a powerhouse run with hydro electric power OOOOOOO spooky bad man lol uses magic to power lights oooooo LOL you are funny bud

    this is the great part, if you talk to someone long enough that is toooooo devote in his or her beliefs they stumble like a 1 year old learning to walk. You have done it here. christians have been claiming thi since the beginning of your religion. You seem no differentthen primitive man with this statement.

    no thanks ill live my life fully just the way I am now.

    No sir, I dont believe it is. AS a matter of fact christians have been saying this as well since the beginning of christianity.
     
  20. Midnight Pete

    Midnight Pete Well-Known Member

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    :facepalm:

    First of all, it was God the Father who recited Revelation to St. John and not God the Son (Jesus). And by "children" the author of Revelation 2:23 means "people" and not actual children. God sees us all as children, regardless of our age.

    Suggesting that Jesus Christ was a child-killer is horribly offensive to Christians and a few hundred years ago the Church would have "purified" you for doing so. But in the year 2010, you along with Matt Parker and Trey Stone are free to blaspheme however they like (as long as the target is not Islam).
     
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