Jerusalem is an Arabic City?

[LuisDantas]

Nope. 1948. 3 years after 1945. Sorry to break it to you.

Israel as a recognized state may have existed only in 1948, but the Jewish presence in the area and the Zionist movement predate it for decades or centuries. Surely you are aware of how difficult the mutual existence of Jewish and Muslim people in the area was during the British Mandate?

 

[FearGod]

Israel as a recognized state may have existed only in 1948, but the Jewish presence in the area and the Zionist movement predate it for decades or centuries. Surely you are aware of how difficult the mutual existence of Jewish and Muslim people in the area was during the British Mandate?

You're with creating a country based on religion, since Judaism existed within that area thousands years
ago then you agree that they have the right to own the land, why not Christians? why not Muslims?
Israel is a state created recently by force, and due to a promise made by Balfour.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Israel as a recognized state may have existed only in 1948, but the Jewish presence in the area and the Zionist movement predate it for decades or centuries. Surely you are aware of how difficult the mutual existence of Jewish and Muslim people in the area was during the British Mandate?

That's great, but the claim wasn't about difficulties between Jewish and Muslim people, the claim explicitly was about the Muslim Brotherhood instigating attacks on Israel in the Second World War. Let's not goal shift, please?

 

[LuisDantas]

You're with creating a country based on religion, since Judaism existed within that area thousands years
ago then you agree that they have the right to own the land, why not Christians? why not Muslims?
Israel is a state created recently by force, and due to a promise made by Balfour.

May you come back when you are willing to talk about fact as opposed to fiction?

The Balfour accord existed and was very consequential, but it is the only part of your post that connects to reality - and then just barely.

I will be looking forward to that point in time.

 

[LuisDantas]

The Muslim brotherhood instigated World War 2? Sure, OK.

What do you know about Hajj Amin al Husseini and his support of the SS?

13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) - Wikipedia

 

[whitemulberries]

While you have not fully understood my view, I commend your effort nonetheless.

My apologies, it's entirely possible I misunderstood where both of you were coming from!

Would you mind having another crack at explaining where you are coming from?

 

[whitemulberries]

I hate Islaam's willingness to roll over people's dignity and integrity.

How does Islam express its willingness to do this, exactly?

 

[Muslim-UK]

What do you know about Hajj Amin al Husseini and his support of the SS?

13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian) - Wikipedia

Your link states,

"it was sent to the Baranja region where it fought against the Red Army and Bulgarians throughout southern Hungary, falling back via a series of defensive lines until they were inside the Reich frontier. Most of the remaining Bosnian Muslims left at this point and attempted to return to Bosnia. The rest retreated further west, hoping to surrender to the Western Allies. Most of the remaining members became prisoners of the British Army. Subsequently, 38 officers were extradited to Yugoslavia to face criminal charges, and 10 were executed. Hundreds of former members of the division fought in the 1947–48 Civil War in Mandatory Palestine and the 1948 Arab–Israeli War."

What do you know about the Senior Jewish Officers within the Nazi regime or the rank and file Jewish soldiers on the front lines?

As Many As 150000 Jews Served In Hitlers Military

What do you know about the reason for the war in the first place? What was it that Hitler objected to regarding the Zionist money lending machine?

 

[Muslim-UK]

Would you mind having another crack at explaining where you are coming from?

Good luck with that. He's worried about what will happen when Jesus pbuh descends from the sky, even though he doesn't believe in the supernatural narratives found within 2 of the Abrahamic religious narratives.

 

[LuisDantas]

How does Islam express its willingness to do this, exactly?

Most obviously, by presuming belief in God and in Islaam even in infants; by explicitly calling for discrimination against non-Muslims; and by valuing god-belief over actual values and religious subject matter.

 

[LuisDantas]

If I may come in, I think you both have points but are coming at the issue from different angles. I suspect what LuisDantas is talking about is the broader social/political dimensions of a political Islamic revival that succeeds in sweeping across the world. From his/her perspective, that will have implications for how he/her can live his/her life, and indeed for a lot of other people, never mind their own beliefs about the best way to structure society/the best kind of government, in the same way that some kinds of non-Muslim government/policies might have implications for how we can/not practice our faith, e.g. policies on Islamic clothing, minarets, calls to prayer, to take some 'simple' single-issue examples. Personal beliefs do then have wider implications for those who don't share those beliefs.

My apologies, it's entirely possible I misunderstood where both of you were coming from!

Would you mind having another crack at explaining where you are coming from?

Sure.

If I may come in, I think you both have points but are coming at the issue from different angles. I suspect what LuisDantas is talking about is the broader social/political dimensions of a political Islamic revival that succeeds in sweeping across the world.

That would be a legitimate enough worry, but I think it would be too little, too late. At this point I find the need to challenge the validity of the doctrine itself, at the everyday level.

From his/her perspective, that will have implications for how he/her can live his/her life, and indeed for a lot of other people,

Quite so.

never mind their own beliefs about the best way to structure society/the best kind of government,

Governments are tricky at the best of times. Theocracies are very much a danger, and Islaamic doctrine is particularly dangerous. It is simply way too busy with god-belief for anyone's good.

in the same way that some kinds of non-Muslim government/policies might have implications for how we can/not practice our faith, e.g. policies on Islamic clothing, minarets, calls to prayer, to take some 'simple' single-issue examples.

Except that at this point in history that is basically a potential danger with nearly no danger of actually materializing.

Personal beliefs do then have wider implications for those who don't share those beliefs.

Quite so.

Good luck with that. He's worried about what will happen when Jesus pbuh descends from the sky, even though he doesn't believe in the supernatural narratives found within 2 of the Abrahamic religious narratives.

You could not be more wrong if you tried. I am honestly not sure that you did not try.

As a matter of fact, I keep forgetting (and being reminded) that there is such a thing as a belief in the existence of a historical Jesus. I certainly do not share of that belief.

 

[whitemulberries]

Most obviously, by presuming belief in God and in Islaam even in infants

That's a belief which doesn't really amount to very much in practice, at least as regards concerns about rolling over people's dignity and integrity.

by explicitly calling for discrimination against non-Muslims

Can you say a bit more about what you have in mind here?

and by valuing god-belief over actual values and religious subject matter.

Whoa there! What do you mean by religious subject matter and actual values here?

 

[LuisDantas]

That's a belief which doesn't really amount to very much in practice, at least as regards concerns about rolling over people's dignity and integrity.

I can't in good faith agree, sorry.

Can you say a bit more about what you have in mind here?

The Qur'an.

Whoa there! What do you mean by religious subject matter and actual values here?

Things such as caring for morality, responsibility of belief, and learning from others without relying on dangerous crutches such as god-belief.

 

[whitemulberries]

At this point I find the need to challenge the validity of the doctrine itself, at the everyday level.

Yes, I appreciate that; I guess I just didn't think that related directly to the question of certain beliefs being of everyone's immediate concern (in the sense of directly impacting everyone's lives). But perhaps your argument is that one needs to tackle the beliefs at their root, before one even gets to the wider worry of political Islam sweeping the world?

Except that at this point in history that is basically a potential danger with nearly no danger of actually materializing.

Actually, there are policies which restrict what Muslim women can or cannot wear, that propose bans on minarets, etc.

 

[whitemulberries]

I can't in good faith agree, sorry.

I thought that might be your answer! I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.​

The Qur'an.

You're going to have to be a bit more specific there.

Things such as caring for morality

I'd like to think the majority of Muslims care about morality!

responsibility of belief

Can you expand a bit on this point?

learning from others without relying on dangerous crutches such as god-belief.

God-belief is surely not just a fundamental part of Islam. Many other religions have it too. And I think we are entirely capable of learning from others whilst also remaining true to our God-beliefs.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, I appreciate that; I guess I just didn't think that related directly to the question of certain beliefs being of everyone's immediate concern (in the sense of directly impacting everyone's lives). But perhaps your argument is that one needs to tackle the beliefs at their root, before one even gets to the wider worry of political Islam sweeping the world?

That too.



Actually, there are policies which restrict what Muslim women can or cannot wear, that propose bans on minarets, etc.[/QUOTE]
Restrictions on burkas and the like? Really? Is thast what you are complaining about?

 

[Ysa7al1Masih]

In this BBC video the Arabic man says "Jerusalem is an Arabic City and will remain one forever" and goes on to say "you cannot erase history" as if he thinks the city has always been an Arabic city and always will be forever. So if that's not calling the kettle black and rewriting the history of the Jews. By this poll do you believe Jerusalem has always been an Arabic City and will forever be, answer the poll true. If you believe Jerusalem was once a Jewish city and will be again answer false to the poll.

Iranians rally against Trump's Jerusalem move, burn US flags

This question is faulty as not all Palestinians are Arab, not even in Jerusalem.

I get the impression that you have absolutely no idea about the history of the theft of Palestine and subsequent annexation followed by gross human rights violations, daily, and oppression that does not get reported on TV.

But you are on the internet, where all the information is. Why do you care what people think about a controversial topic, and why these people specifically?

If you want to conduct a survey it's been done and is pointless unless you include the Palestinians themselves, you know the actual victims of Israeli racism, I watched a video the other day made by a Mizrahi (Middle Eastern non European descent) Jew and they are treat inferior by the Ashkenazi, who have all the power in the region, and one clip was of Israelis in a large group chanting "Death to all Arabs."

Jerusalem is a Palestinian city which is 3 areas, Gaza, the West Bank and a part of Jerusalem, east I believe.

But the whole country is Palestine to me as there is no justification for stealing an entire country, which had Jewish citizens, who had lived in peace with the Muslims, before it was taken by European Jews, stolen.

This should not be news to you, I feel bad for you for being so clueless that you need to ask random people who are usually just as clueless and that you think there is a good reason to ask them when history is online for free.

By all means ask people their opinions, which are usually based on lies, but I think that the human rights violations against Palestinians are more important than what the President says is the capital of a country that is not his, he might as well just say that "death to Arabs" himself, because that's what he Ashkenazi teach their children, and what support for Israel is.

 

[whitemulberries]

Restrictions on burkas and the like? Really? Is thast what you are complaining about?

I wasn't complaining about this (though I have my complaints); rather, I was pointing to it (for FearGod) as a simple example of ways in which 'Western' policies, rooted in 'Western' beliefs about the way societies out to be governed, might be of concern to us insofar as they directly impact our lives (to try to explain your point about Islamic policies/beliefs being everyone's concern).

 

[LuisDantas]

I thought that might be your answer! I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.​

Probably.​

You're going to have to be a bit more specific there.

The Qur'an is a book of tribalistic perspective, constantly making meaningful distinctions between people and insisting on the need to favor fellow believers in Islaam over anyone else - supposedly in obedience to a supreme all-creator, no less.

That is simply not at all healthy.

I'd like to think the majority of Muslims care about morality!

They do indeed. Most people do. There are many and powerful moral motivators acting on all of us.

The Qur'an and Islaam, however, are far more hindrance than help on that matter.

Can you expand a bit on this point?

Islaam is very appropriately named. It is indeed all about surrender to doctrine, which opposes moral development, responsibility of belief and even the ability to discern the worth of situations and choices.

God-belief is surely not just a fundamental part of Islam.

True enough. But few existing doctrines emphasize it nearly as much, or fail to compensate its dangers and pitfalls nearly as much as Islaam does.

Most Muslims seem to be literally unprepared to acknowledge, let alone address, the necessary objections from us "kuffar".

In that respect Islaam is very remarkable indeed, and that would be true even if it did not have such impressive demographic abrangence.

Many other religions have it too.

That is one reason why I don't call Islaam a religion. It is sorely incomplete, failing to build the necessary tools to handle god-beliefs without being overwhelmed and corrupted by that belief.

True religions, when they are theistic, soon learn to develop such tools, for they are very necessary indeed. Hinduism, Shinto, Paganism and Judaism come to mind.

And I think we are entirely capable of learning from others whilst also remaining true to our God-beliefs.

Most Muslims do.

Apparently they are all too often mistaken aboutt that.

 

[LuisDantas]

I wasn't complaining about this (though I have my complaints); rather, I was pointing to it (for FearGod) as a simple example of ways in which 'Western' policies, rooted in 'Western' beliefs about the way societies out to be governed, might be of concern to us insofar as they directly impact our lives (to try to explain your point about Islamic policies/beliefs being everyone's concern).

I think I would need some specific examples of that happening before I believe that it is happening.