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JerryL's debate about prayer, miracles, etc.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Aqualung, Aug 23, 2005.

  1. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    This is a continuation of a debate JerryL and I got into in the "scriptures to condemn homosexuality" thread. I have never tried to move portions of a thread into another thread, so excuse the sloppiness and the fact that I repeat everybody's quotes about a million times. Also remember that I am the christian and that JerryL is the athiest(?), in case I got the quotes mixed up.

     
  2. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Hmm. For some reason now when I try to submit the rest of the argument, the thing tells me "the message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters. I guess in the end, if you want to know all that has happened, you'll have to go to the homosexuality thread.

     
  3. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Hey, it worked there. Well, anyway, that's the beginning and the end of our debate. I coudn't get the middle stuff in.
     
  4. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hi, Aqualung

    Someone asking for miracles today is just tempting the Lord.

    John 6:26 = JESUS ANSWERED THEM AND SAID, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, YE SEEK ME, NOT BECAUSE YE SAW THE MIRACLES, BUT BECAUSE YE DID EAT OF THE LOAVES, AND WERE FILLED.

    John 12:37 = BUT THOUGH HE HAD DONE SO MANY MIRACLES BEFORE THEM, YET THEY BELIEVED NOT ON HIM.

    God is well-familiar with this "show me a miracle" excuse, and He's too wise to jump through hoops for us.
     
  5. SoyLeche

    SoyLeche meh...

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    Quote Matt 12:39 to him. One time Joseph Smith was giving a talk and someone in the crowd was being really obnoxious, demanding a sign. Finally, Joseph paused, looked at the man, and told him that he needed to repent of his adultery. He then quoted this verse. Someone else in the crowd yelled out something like, "It's true, we caught him", or something to that effect.

    This story may be apocraphal, and I don't have any documentation for it, but I like it anyway.
     
  6. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Definitely. If someone is too blind to see the miracles that are happening all around, it's rediculous to think that He would give a specific miracle on demand. God has shown time and again that He only increases what he gives people if they show faith. He doesn't give more to those who don't even beleive what is already there.
     
  7. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    I find it increduliously convinient that God will answer questions, but never any which could actually be validated.

    I've seen noone risen from the dead, noone walking on water, noone turning water int wine, no pillars od fire, no boombing voices, no angels or rivers turning to blood or fire from the sky (shy of from stage magicians). I don't agree that miracles are happening just as they did in the old days.

    So why did he perform them? What changed that God stopped?

    Actually, I have a different hypothesis on why they don't show up there much. But he actually did a lot for unbelievers. He argued directly with the unbelieving rabbi, he showed his wounds to Thomas, etc.

    In fact, God has often gone out of his way to make a miricle to prove himself to the unbelievers. The face-off between Jehovia and Baal is a classic.

    Sounds like the emperor's new clothes.

    No, it doesn't. Emerpical data changes skeptical minds. Heck, there's a very analogous thing I was equally opposed to that I had my position changed on about 5 years ago because I was shown it and able to test it.

    The Egyptians, the followers of Baal, the Sodomites, Thomas...
     
  8. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    Someone asking for miracles, is someone that does not understand the purpose of miracles. They are not and were never meant to be something done for the amusement of others. The Bible tells us that God's messengers used miracles so that they would be proven to be from God. The New Testament church fathers used miracles in this capacity also, but mainly it was to spread the word of God. God, through the Holy Spirit, inspired these men to impart God's will to those around the world. Once God's will was made physical (i.e. Holy Scripture) there was no need for this direct link and the miracles went away as more and more people had direct connect with the knowledge of God, through his word. Those that demand a miracle for their belief, have no real desire for the knowledge and truth of God's word, but they do have a desire to be shown sign. God does not have the desire to gain the souls of men, by pimping out His power to anyone that demands it from Him. God's desire is that men come to him freely, on their own, and desiring a knowledge of the truth.
     
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  9. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    OK. Spread the word of God to me and answer the question I posed.

    So you assert that there have been no miracles since cannon was established around 500CE?

    I don't think scripture bears you out. How many miracles did God give the Isrealies? Every fricking time they started worshipping some cow sculpture (within days it seems of millars of fire, reigns of locusts and water-tunnels they forget which god is which and worship whichever animal is handy), God comes along with a burning bush and a metamorphisizing staff.... well, until we get into an era where people actually start testing such claims; then they suddenly disappear, or show up like UFOs "only when no non-believer is looking".
     
  10. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

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    Miracles still happen every day. Most people have just gotten too arrogant to see them and instead find some way to try and explain them away with "science".....evolution for example. Those who think the universe just popped into existence one day and man crawled out of the primordial ooze are missing the miracle. I know...I know...you'll say that's not a miracle because science yada yada. You've just made my point.

    Personally, I think the doubting Thomases would still doubt if God physically stood in front of them. They'd find some way to explain it away.
     
  11. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    I have many, many questions, and have gotten many, many answers, to questions that can be validated. You're asking the wrong questions, and asking them for the wrong purpos.

    Only his apostles and two women saw that.
     
  12. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    The heat gnomes prove their existance every day, congregating near heat sources and making things nearby hot with their presence. You see it every time you put something on the stove and it gets hot. I know, you'll say "it's just condution", but you prove my point.

    Your statement is rhetoric. There are clear examples of miracles on demand, and for the explicit benifit of the observer throughout the Bible. They are not "flowers bloomed", they are "every firstborn died in one night", "The sea parted", "A pillar of fire decended from the sky and killed only the opposing army".

    It's the only way I can tell the difference between real communication and false (whether believed or not). I can ask a plant what shirt I should wear today and come up with an answer and say that proves that plants are telepathic. It's not a useful claim without the ability to support it.

    The son of the widow of Zarephath (1 Kings 17:17-23).
    The Shunammite woman's son (2 Kings 4:32-37).
    The young man laid in Elisha's grave (2 Kings 13:21).
    The widow's son (Luke 7:12-15).
    Jairus' daughter (Luke 8:49-55).
    Lazarus (John 11:43,44).
    Jesus (Matt. 28:1-15; Mk. 16:1-13; Lk. 24:1-12; Jn. 20:1-18).
    Saint who were raised, coming from the tombs that were opened after Christ's crucifixion (Matt. 27:52-53).
    Dorcas (Acts 9:37-40).
    Eutychus (Acts 20:9-12).
    Many others who are not named (Heb. 11:35).
    Making fish appear? Hundreds? Appearing before Paul? Hundreds? Turning the Nile to blood? at least tens of thousands.

    The Emperors new clothes.

    Actually, mostof the world still hadn't heard about him.. but that too is a different topic.

    Plagues, pillar of fire, parting the sea, flooding the world, talking bush, magical ark of the covenant, striking dead those who enter the inner shrine without animal blood, walking theroughthe Jewesh camp with moses, bringing down the walls of Jerico, stopping the sun in the sky. Not to mention all the angels.

    Then there's the NT. An army of zombie saints marching on Jeruselam, the eclipse and earthquake, the appearance before hundreds of non-believers (not the least of which paul himself), curing lepers, raising several dead people.

    Your statement is simply false.

    Rhetoric. I can reverse the language and say it about you.

    Actually, the *reason* he refused is "God hardened his heart".
     
  13. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Oh! Raise others from the dead! I thought you meant be resurected himself. But anyway, he only "revived" people when they asked him IN FAITH to raise them. They didn't ask "knowing" that it woudn't work. They didn't ask somebody else to ask for them, because the beleived so little that they didn't want to do it themselves. They asked, in faith, so they got an answer.
     
  14. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    When you say stuff like this, can you say which verses you're looking at? I find it helpful if I can read them myself, but I usually don't know exactly where they are.
    As for the fish appearing, he didn't say, "Look! I have three fish... and now I have a whole lot of fish." Only his disciples saw how many he started with and how many he ended with.

    You say a lot of stuff like this. you're just writing it off without any proof. You're essentially just saying "you're wrong" without telling me why.
    Actually, that's a mistranslation. It should have said "pharoah harded his heart." It says the LORD because, probably, the original just said "he" and a translator at one point took this to mean God, not the Pharoah.

    You can ask God anything, too. But if you think tha tyou won't get answer, you won't. And you can't expect others to pray for you.

    most of the things that you mentioned when I said he had done very little either ended up killing everybody except the beleivers, so only the beleivers witnessed it anyway, were actually only seen by the believer (the burning bush, for example), or weren't beleived anyway, even though they were horribly miraculous
     
  15. JerryL

    JerryL Well-Known Member

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    Not true: For example, everyone just declared Lazarus dead and Jesus brought him back.

    Most of these are pretty commonly known stories (and I'm referring to a bunch) so I've not been citing passages. The fish instance occurs in front of (and to) a crowd of "about 5000" Matthew 14.

    The emperors new clothes is a parable about a beautiful set of clothing that supposedly only the wise can see. The fact of the matter is that they don't exist, but since no one wants to claim they are unwise, an awful lot of people start claiming to see them.

    The Bible is rife with miricles that appeared to thousands and were undisputeable. When challenged to provide one now, I get a whole slew of (often contrary) responses. Only the faithful can see miracles these days (which, of course, conflicts with the claim also made that miracles are all around me and I'm denying them), and the miracles are never concrete. Faith-healers abound, but none has replaced a missing limb; we are down to hearsay, grasping at turning everything miraculous, and blobs that "resemble Jesus" on toast.

    "Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them" - Exodus 10:1

    I looked at several versions (NIV, ASV, NASV, KJV) and all agree on it.

    Why can't I expect that?

    No, that's simply not true. But let's hit a really prime example.

    Once there was this guy named Saul. Saul didn't believe in Jesus and wasn't looking ot believe in Jesus. Then Jesus appeared to him in front of hundreds of corroborating witnesses and converted him even though he had read the scripture and not believed and was a skeptic.
     
  16. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    Yeah, I know, and I'm really sorry. But It just really helps me to read it for myself, so I can see the actual language, and what it is saying. And, while I may know pretty well what is in the Bible, I usually don't know where.
    I know what the Emperor's new clothes refferrs to. But you don't ever say why you think they don't exist. You just say that they don't. And just saying that's it's parrallel is no form of proof. It's just a statement. If I said, "people just say the sky is blue. It's really not." would anyone beleive me unless I gave proof that it wasn't blue, and not reffered them to a fairy tale?
    Well, it should say, "he has hardened his heart." (This I know through latter-day revelation. do you want to debate into that, or just leave it an undecided thing due to difference of sources?)
    Because Jesus always says thing like "ask in faith" or "if you do this in faith it will work." Faith is essential.
    And you never told me where that was, so I haven't been able to read it for myself. The simple fact is that I can't find things, no matter how well known they are. If you want me to debate it, tell me where it is.
     
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