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Featured Jehovah's Witnesses' problems with the Catholic Church

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Shiranui117, Aug 10, 2017.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    According to Isaiah 43:10, Israel were called Jehovah's "Witnesses". Jesus was called "the Faithful Witness" (Revelation 1:5)....Jesus said we would be "witnesses of him to the most distant part of the earth"......so Jehovah has had his Witnesses all along. We are nothing new.
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I just want to deal with two items, and the first one is the accusation that the church fell into apostasy. Let's take a look at what the scriptures say:

    Matthew 18[18] Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. [why would Jesus give this power to the church with the apostles at the helm only to have it die when they die?]

    Matthew 18[17] If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector [again, notice the authority given to the Twelve and how it logically must have been passed on]

    Matthew 23[2] "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat;
    [3] so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.
    [notice that Jesus does give the Pharisees credit for what they teach, which is logical since Jesus and Paul and the others were operating from a liberal Pharisee paradigm; Jesus anger with them was with "Oral Law" ("laws made by men"), plus he felt they were too arrogant, or so it appears]

    1 Timothy 1[3]As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine [note that the church leaders taught with authority]

    Hebrews 13[17]Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. [again, note that one must obey the leaders]

    Matthew 16[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it [note underlined part in this case]

    OK, so what's my point? There's no doubt that Jesus taught with authority and also taught the apostles to each with authority, so what are the chances that he forgot to tell them to pass this on to others? Answer: 0, and we know this because in Acts it shows these powers being passed on to other appointed leaders that eventually would replace the apostles.

    But it goes beyond that because if the church somehow fell into "apostasy", then what supposedly replaced it? Can't be the NT because that hadn't been canonized, plus different local churches often used different texts. And then we see in the 2nd century some groups claiming that they had the right texts.

    But what's also very important is what the word "church" means. It doesn't mean "individuals"-- it means "community". And Paul repeatedly says that there is only "one body", so it can't be just a free-for-all thingy.

    So, if it's not what we know became called the Catholic Church in the early 2nd century, then which is it? [see: Catholic Church - Wikipedia and read item #1]

    And didn't Jesus say that he and the HS would help guide the church ["community", and only "one body"] until the end of time? If the church of the apostles didn't continue on as Acts points out, then doesn't that make him wrong?

    Theologians have a name for that process and it's called "apostolic succession", namely that the powers and authority that Jesus gave the apostles was in turn passed on the their appointees. It's right there in Acts even though "apostolic succession" is not named as such, and it was this, not the scriptures themselves, that was the "mark" of the early church. And it continued as "the Way" took on the name "Catholic Church" in the early 2nd century, but eventually there were some churches that split off but kept their appointees, such as the Orthodox Church, the Anglican Church, and some Scandinavian Lutheran denominations [see Apostolic succession - Wikipedia ] These are the only churches that can legitimately make such a claim of being descended from the apostolic church ("the Way") because of the actions we see being taken in Acts and thereafter.

    Growing up Protestant, I was not taught the above, but when I did the research some 40 years ago, I realized that what I had been taught to believe in was simply wrong because it doesn't make any sense both in terms of early church history or even logic based on the scriptures

    I wrote the above not to debate it but to explain why I came to the conclusion that I had.
     
    #22 metis, Aug 12, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2017
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    In regards to the Pharisees, if one studies where they were coming from theologically, they should rather easily draw the conclusion that Jesus was coming from a liberal Pharisee position, not too terribly different from the Hillel school.

    The "Pharisees" were more of a movement than a specific sect, and archaeologists have evidence that there were at least four different groups, and they didn't always get along together. Matter of fact, historians tell us that there literally was a physical fight that broke out between the Hillel and Shammai camps.

    As I pointed out in my last post, Jesus praised what they taught but condemned how all too many of them acted, at least in his opinion. Also, since Paul said he was a Pharisee upon his arrest, and since Paul firmly believed in Jesus-- well, put 2 + 2 together.

    Also, Jesus' statement about "laws made by men" may be a reference to the mainline Pharisee camp accepting the authority of the "Oral Law". But it may also pertain to what is called "building a fence around the Torah", namely making some of the Laws a bit tougher so as to compensate for the natural tendency for people to "fudge" on the Law.

    Anyhow, what Jesus seems to been involved in with at least the mainline Pharisee group is what may be called a "family dispute", and what can be much harsher than family disputes?

    The Pharisees put strong emphasis on the Torah and eventually the rest of the Tanakh, the latter of which became the "Old Testament" in Christian terminology. By doing so, they de-emphasized the Temple sacrifices, which didn't go over well at all with the Sadducees.

    Now whether Jesus saw himself as a Pharisee or "liberal Pharisee", that's quite impossible to say. But there's really no doubt he at the least he was from that general paradigm, and one can see this more clearly if one checks this out: Pharisees - Wikipedia
     
  4. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    And in the meantime He just casually let billions be resigned to eternal death without even caring, because according to you, all truth died from the face of the earth for 1800 years.

    Eternal death is still eternal damnation. And you ignored my question. Why would God give 1800 years' worth of Christians up to eternal death without even attempting to set the record straight? Why would Christ and the Holy Spirit give up protecting the Church so easily?

    Given that the Catholic Church started with the Apostles, no, I cannot go back any earlier than that. Even you are forced to admit that the Catholic Church existed this early. Even if you say the Church fell away, you are forced to say that the Catholic Church was the first Jehovah's Witnesses organization before it "apostasized". The Catholic Church didn't spring up out of nowhere.

    I sure hope you guys don't make any art--oh wait, you do. The point being, we don't worship statues or icons. We show respect to Christ and the Saints by bowing to the icons and statues, the same way that soldiers salute the flag, or martial artists bow to their instructors, or that younger people in Asian countries bow to their elders or to the graves of their ancestors.

    So you guys don't give any sign of respect to God? Not even bowing your head or giving a curt nod?

    Yup, and we don't worship a mother goddess either.

    This one is debatable.
    Really? Jesus never gave His disciples the authority to forgive sins? Have you read John 20 recently?

    And both of those have been long since done away with, and everyone agrees that the Spanish Inquisition was awful, and that converting someone at the point of a sword was depraved. Ask any Catholic, especially a clergyman, what they think of either of these things. They will very quickly tell you how wrongheaded that was and how the people in the Church have learned their lesson, in great detail.

    You're dancing around the point. According to you, the only true Christians died before the end of the first century.

    If history tells the story, then show me. Where are the Jehovah's Witnesses in history before the 1800's? I mentioned before that Christian apologists wrote extensively about heretical groups, their practices and their beliefs, and refuted these groups point-by-point. The practice of writing about heretics became so common it turned into its own thing: Heresiology. These writers wrote about every group you care to imagine. Yet nowhere, nowhere, do we see anyone whose beliefs match those of your organization. Again, if the Jehovah's Witnesses were originally the entirety of the Church, we would expect to see refutations by heresiologists of your group, a treatise, or even just a stray mention. If, as you say, history bears record of this tale of yours, then you should have no problem providing evidence to back up your claim.

    So show me. Prove to the world from history that the Catholic Church became apostate and that the Jehovah's Witnesses were the original Christians. Show me historical records. Provide the full text in all its glory that proves the Church wrong and your group right. Show me evidence of a Sola Scripturist, iconoclastic, non-liturgical, clergyless group which claimed that Jesus was the Archangel Michael in human form. This group would have been a marvel of marvels, an oddity to all the world. Even the pagans would have written about their strange practices and beliefs, as they did with the Catholics. And if such a group was originally the dominant group in the Church, we would expect to see heated debate between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Catholics, which would have shown up in histories, in writings by both groups refuting the other. Because I doubt you guys would have just rolled over and died without even trying to defend your beliefs.

    So show me a record of your guys' existence prior to the 1800's. Do it. Disprove the Catholic Church irrefutably after 2,000 years of what would be known as history's greatest cover-up conspiracy.

    You don't know anything about Biblical scholarship, do you? Or textual criticism or literary studies in general?

    Have you ever cracked open a study Bible? If you have, you'd know that the study notes spend a great deal of time talking about the historical, geographical, political, societal and theological contexts in which the books of the Bible were written. The book's original intended audience as well as the book's authors are all described in detail to help the reader understand why the text was written, the main themes the author intended to convey, literary devices that are used and what they signify, and how the work would have been interpreted at the time. This is standard practice in Biblical scholarship, and I'm quite shocked to hear that you've never heard of any of this before.

    In almost any conversation I've ever had with anybody about the Jehovah's Witnesses, the prognosis isn't good. The view that nearly everyone has is overwhelmingly negative. Nearly everyone I've ever seen just shuts the door in your guys' faces. Some of them welcome you into their homes just so they can debate with you, but are firm in their faith (or lack thereof) and have no intention of converting. You guys keep a list of houses not to visit because of things like this.

    Maybe door-to-door preaching worked back in the day. But in the 21st-century West, everybody's seen and heard it all before. If you want to truly reach people and get them to be interested in what you have to say, then do good for the community. The world's opinion was turning against the Catholic Church. We were becoming one of the most-loathed organizations in the world. That's until Pope Francis came in, and his example to the world as a humble man who puts his money where his mouth is has caused many to reevaluate how they look at Catholicism. He has expanded charity work for the sick and homeless. He has foregone many of the more opulent Papal customs in favor of simpler, more humble alternatives. He has preached reconciliation and understanding for those who disagree with us, in light of what Christ has said--love those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who persecute you.

    "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?" (Matthew 5:46-47)

    If you only take care of your own, then that's all well and good. You're just as good as any other human being. But taking care of the needs of others, even those who are opposed to your beliefs, because it's the right thing to do? Now that's impressive. And that's the kind of thing that gets people to perk up and pay attention to why it is you do what you do. Christian doctors like St. Panteleimon would heal people without charge. Christian bishops like St. Nicholas of Myra went secretly by night to give money to debt-ridden fathers so they would have dowries for their daughters, instead of having to sell their daughters into prostitution. Acts of kindness like this made Christianity respected in the Roman Empire, despite the overwhelming notion in Roman society that even one individual refusing to worship the gods of Rome would make the gods angry and remove their protection and blessing from the Empire.
     
  5. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Some were collaborators, yes. But many resisted, and more than two thousand Catholic priests were imprisoned for it. More than one thousand were martyred.

    Priest Barracks of Dachau Concentration Camp

    108 Martyrs of World War II

    Yet somehow, despite the Church supposedly becoming apostate and opposed to everything of God's, we still put together the Bible as you know it today. Explain that one. If the Bible was compiled by the Church, which you say became apostate, then you would expect to see many apocryphal writings included in the canon, especially in the New Testament. It shouldn't have been possible for a Church opposed to the will of God and the teachings of Christ to put together the correct, doctrinally sound Bible centuries after falling away, because they refused to follow God's will in any respect whatsoever.

    Last I checked, the Catholic Church was sitting at a billion members with outreach programs and charities literally everywhere. So, quite a few people hear the message.

    First you say that wearing the colors purple and scarlet are signs that the person wearing them is part of the "Greater Babylon". Then you say they're not evil and there's nothing wrong with wearing these colors as God uses them very frequently in nature. Now you're saying that wearing purple and scarlet are bad because the Bible says so. Make up your mind.

    Show me. Put your money where your mouth is.

    An examination of the person's life. Were they faithful to God? Were they virtuous? And secondly, two miracles must be attributed to this person's prayers to God being answered. Two miracles not adequately explainable by modern science, or investigations for fraud, or demonic imitation.

    Because there's no point in trying to predict the date that the End will come. It could be five seconds from now and interrupt me from typing out this very sentence, or it could be five million years from now. You guys have certainly guessed wrong enough times and staked a lot of your claims on it.

    Watch Tower Society unfulfilled predictions - Wikipedia

    The point of Jesus' warnings about being ready and vigilant for the end times wasn't so we could pinpoint the date. The point is that we don't know when the end will come until it happens, and so we should maintain lives of prayer, purity and watchfulness regardless. If we knew when the end was going to come, people could eat, drink, be merry, sin all they want, and then right before the end happens repent in sackcloth and ashes and they're good. "If the master of the house knew at which hour the thief would come, he would not let his house be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour which you do not expect." Matthew 5:43-44.

    Have you never read St. Paul's words about the passions of the flesh or of the mind? "Passions" do not refer to fervor in the Bible, they refer to sinful inclinations, disoriented desires that need corrected.

    If you look at history, it was monks who spread the faith. Monks spread the faith to England, to the Slavs, to Germany, to Scotland, to China, to Japan, to the Americas. Monks created writing systems like the Cyrillic alphabet (named after St. Cyril, Apostle to the Slavs) so that people could read the Bible in their own language. The Russians were among the kindest missionaries to the Native Americans. The Aleuts in Alaska are still Russian Orthodox to this day, and their first task was to translate the Bible and the Liturgy into Aleutian. The monks often protested loudly against any injustice that the Russian colonial government inflicted upon the Aleutian people.

    Have their prayers for the whole world ever been answered? What are they praying for exactly? Could it be that they have blood on their hands? (Isaiah 1:15) [/quote]They are praying for peace, for repentance, for good harvests, for those who are sick, for those who have died, for those who struggle. Some of them are living lives of repentance for past sins. Abba Moses the Black was once a raider against the monks, before he was convinced by their kindness and forgiveness, and dedicated his life to Christ.

    Way to dance around the point.

    The vestments have come to have symbolic meaning. The colors and each item all have meanings attached to them from Scripture. Clergy actually recite verses from Scripture with each piece of their vestments as they put them on.

    I guess you choose to ignore the parts of the Bible where Jesus and the Apostles encourage and practice fasting? (1 Corinthians 7:5, Matthew 6:16-18, Matthew 17:21, Mark 9:29, Acts 14:23, Matthew 4:2, Acts 13:3)

    We abstain from meat during fasting seasons because it's super expensive. I work as a clerk in a meat department, and I regularly see people blow more than 50 dollars on steak for one single household meal, and that's just on average. I've seen people pay more than 200 dollars on meat for one single cookout, and I'm not talking a cookout for 100 people, I'm talking a cookout for maybe 10. The normal price for a steak is anywhere from eight to twenty-five dollars per pound, depending on the cut. Compare that to vegetables and grains, and the difference is staggering. People spend disgusting amounts of money on meat, and during fasts, we are called to give to charity the money we save on not buying meat.

    And we don't forbid marriage, either.
    It only became a thing in the 1200's in the West that priests were forbidden to be married. Because priests and monks were the only ones who learned how to read and write, kings and dukes were appointing them to important government positions, and so these priests began acquiring estates. Soon you had dynasties of powerful clergy who were also government officials, and these people began becoming corrupt. Because of this, the Church forbade married men from the priesthood, to end this practice. However, this was never a problem in the East, so in the Eastern Catholic and Eastern/Oriental Orthodox Churches, you do see married men becoming priests very regularly.
     
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  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Very nice post.
     
  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Who said he "just casually let billions be resigned to eternal death without even caring"? Those who "sleep in death" are promised a resurrection.....something that Jews firmly believed in....not a resurrection to heaven or hell or even purgatory, but all sleep in the same place, unaware of anything.

    Solomon wrote...."For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.....Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going."(Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10)
    The word translated "grave" is sheol which finds its equivalent in Greek in the word "hades". (Hell)
    It is a place of rest for all the dead, "both the righteous and the unrighteous".

    Jesus said he was going to raise all these dead...(John 5:28-29) and he calls them out from their graves, not from heaven or any spirit realm.....this will be when Christ reigns in the "new earth" to come. Your church had to invent places for immortal souls to go because the Bible never said we have immortal souls in the first place. Humans do not "have" a soul. They "are" souls. Adam "became a living soul" once God breathed spirit (breath) into him.

    The Hebrew neʹphesh [נֶפֶשׁ] "souls" are living breathing creatures......in Hebrew, neʹphesh never means a disembodied spirit.....it always refers to a living breathing animated creature.

    Only the incorrigibly wicked will be left in death, consigned to "gehenna"....never to return to this life again. God knows who they are.

    This is one very important teaching that was corrupted by your church's adoption of a Greek idea, not a Jewish one and certainly not a Christian one.

    God didn't give up on anyone. The dead who are believers in Christ (i.e. those who are not chosen for heavenly rulership,) are assured of a resurrection back to life on this earth (even those who lived and died before Christ which includes all the righteous ones since Abel) will enjoy the life God meant for them to live originally......but the "unrighteous" will also have an opportunity, many for the first time, to return to life and learn about the true God and his Christ. They will have a thousand years to do so and prove themselves worthy. Who did God leave out?

    According to Jesus, we who are living at the time of the end are in a judgment period. There are only "sheep and goats" alive at this period. There is nothing in between. All have received a thorough witness, like the ones Noah preached to in his day. The people chose to ridicule God's messenger back then, and they do so today when the judgment is conducted on a global scale.

    Jesus gave the warning....."For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." (Matthew 24:37-39) Who is listening? :shrug:

    The Catholic Church started with Constantine in the 4th century. He is the one responsible for the existence of your church and much of its teachings. What existed before him was simply a steady decline into outright apostasy....in just the same way as Judaism before it. They are mirror images of one another. It isn't until you step back that you can see history repeating.

    Jesus says in Matthew 7:21-23, (addressing those who claim to be his disciples, but whom he describes as "workers of lawlessness")......"I never knew you"....so, it appears as if the existence of these ones was never recognized as legitimate Christianity from the beginning. I can see why, but perhaps you cannot from your perspective? Never means "not ever".

    There is a vast difference between art and an object of devotion. When God says we should NOT MAKE images to use in worship....he means exactly that. He knows the snares of idolatry, so if we don't MAKE them, we can't get into trouble.
    It was a simple command.....how can it be misunderstood?
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Since we do not recognize the cross as a Christian symbol, we honor our God in the same way that the ancient Jews did....by our obedience to his commands and by the way we conduct our worship in line with what the Bible tells us is acceptable to God.

    You must be kidding!

    [​IMG]

    All of the titles bestowed on Mary come from pagaism, not the Bible.

    "Our Lady" "Queen of Heaven" etc, are all titles taken from ancient mother goddess worship. None are found in the Bible.
    So.......
    Is Mary the Mother of God?
    Was she ever virgin?
    Was Mary immaculately conceived?
    Did she ascend bodily to heaven?
    Is Mary an intercessor?
    Can we express devotion to an image of her?
    Was Mary mentioned with any special honor in the first century congregations?

    Mary (Jesus’ Mother) — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

    Mary was the Mother of Jesus.....so because Jesus isn't God, she was never the "mother of God" in the first place.

    No baptism of infants is found in scripture. A disciple is a "taught one" which means that a child has to be of an age where they can be taught with understanding before dedicating their life to the service of God as a true disciple of his son. Since it involves a vow, it is not something that any person can do for another. Until a child reaches the age of accountability, they are counted in with their parents.

    Have you......?
    Did Jesus authorize his apostles to forgive sins?

    John 20:21-23, JB: “‘As the Father sent me, so am I sending you.’ After saying this he breathed on them and said: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.’”

    How did the apostles understand and apply this? There is no record in the Bible of a single instance in which an apostle listened to a private confession and then pronounced absolution. However, the requirements for being forgiven by God are set out in the Bible. The apostles, under the direction of holy spirit, could discern whether individuals were meeting such requirements and could on this basis declare that God had either forgiven them or not forgiven them. For examples, see Acts 5:1-11, also 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 and 2 Corinthians 2:6-8.

    There is some other interesting information given by Jesus in this chapter. In verse 4 Jesus said..."We must do the works of the One who sent me while it is day; the night is coming when no man can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the world’s light.” This confirms to me that spiritual darkness would re-enter the world after Jesus' death. The time would come when the darkness would become so great that no man would be able to work for God.....I believe we are approaching that time right now. We have a powerful enemy who is intent on creating that darkness as efficiently as he can. (1 John 5:19) Revelation describes his activity at this time....

    Revealtion 12:7-9, 12.....
    "And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.......On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.”"

    This indicates that as his time grows shorter, his anger increases and his methods become more intense. Are we not seeing this right now?

    It doesn't alter the fact that it proved the Church to be what Jesus said it would....apostate and unchristian in its conduct.
    Too late to say you're sorry when you have led billions of people into false worship....and continue to do so.

    I never said that. I said that the "weeds" swallowed up the "wheat" for a period when it was foretold that apostasy would dominate "Christianity" .
    The "wheat" were always there but were silenced whenever they dared to expose the corrupt teachings and conduct of this out of control juggernaut. Revelation describes Babylon the great as having a "kingdom over the kings of the earth"....can that be denied? Didn't the rulers of Catholic nations needed papal sanction to do anything?
    Didn't Jesus tell his disciples to be 'no part of this world' ruled by the devil? Catholic leaders were "in bed with them"....any wonder she is described as a harlot!

    They were not a group once the apostasy took root. They were just brave individuals who spoke up about the corruption they saw or the doctrines they were forced to believe, and they were put to death, often burned alive. History tells us a lot about them and the methods used by the church to extract confessions, so as to legitimize their position.

    As I have mentioned already, Jehovah has always had his witnesses. (Isaiah 43:10)

    If you know your Bible, instead of Catholic interpretation of it, you will not find ANY Catholic teaching contained in any of Jesus teachings......none.

    It will never be humans who reveal God's truth to anyone......only God can convict an honest and humble heart. I have shown you many things on this thread already that will be enough proof to any honest hearted person to use their own judgement....but without God's spirit, nothing will seem like truth to those who have been deluded for centuries.

    Paul wrote....."9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    When God raised up his modern day witnesses, he equipped them with knowledge that the "wicked" would never understand. In these last days there has been much written by both parties about each other. There were many down through time who gave their lives for the truth....God knows who they are even if history never names them.

    [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Haven't you ever wondered how this conduct was even possible for a church who claimed to be Christ's representative on earth? I think its pretty self evident how far they strayed off the path, don't you?

    I believe that I already have. Why do you need more? You began this thread to reveal why Jehovah's Witnesses have a problem with the Catholic Church.....I have shown you why.

    We do nothing but study the Bible. I have given you scriptural reasons for all the conclusions we have drawn about what we believe and why. I have also given you scriptural evidence as to why we believe that Catholicism is not Christianity and never was.

    John 15:18-21:
    18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me."

    If we were well liked and well received by the masses, we'd know we were on the wrong track.

    John 3:10-13: Jesus said.....
    "The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.

    13 Do not be surprised, brothers, that the world hates you."


    We are not surprised. We are hated for the same reasons that Jesus and his apostles were hated....we expose lies and promote Bible truth. We preach in all the world how people can become citizens of God's kingdom, soon to come and take over control of earth's rulership. (Daniel 2:44) We need it now more than at any other time in history.
    Bring it on! [​IMG]

    You think Jesus and his disciples faced anything different? Hostility to the message was foretold, but we were not to take it personally. Jesus also said....

    Matthew 10:11-15:
    “Into whatever city or village you enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until you leave. 12 When you enter the house, greet the household. 13 If the house is deserving, let the peace you wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from you return upon you. 14 Wherever anyone does not receive you or listen to your words, on going out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day than for that city."

    We believe that we are in a 'search and rescue' mission.....when people do not receive us, we "shake the dust off our feet" and move on to the next house. I have been doing this work for 45 years. I can tell you now, that generally people are nicer than you think. We occasionally get the rednecks who want to be nasty, but these are usually in the minority. We try to avoid those people by noting their address so as not to provoke them again. We are not there to annoy people...we come with a message of hope, but they are free to decline the invitation. Most people just say that they are 'not interested' and we respect their right to do so. We are just messengers....not judges.

    You can do nothing better for the community than to offer them lasting solutions to life's most pressing problems. The Bible tells us what we must do in order to gain everlasting life. Those who do not want to know, or those who don't think they need to bother are in for a rude shock. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)

    Personally, I see Pope Francis as damage control for the Catholic Church......its so hard to hate the church for all its misdemeanors if the bloke up front is "such a nice man". He is saying and doing things that no Pope in history was allowed to say or do.....but for how long?

    And that is exactly what we do. We just take care of our own first. You have no idea how many people we have helped following natural disasters. Neighbors of our brothers and sisters who have had their homes repaired by our teams of volunteers have praised our efforts in their behalf....saying that their own churches offer no such help. We are proud of our efforts but they largely go unreported. What if all churches helped their own first? It would make the government's job a lot simpler. Some victims of past disasters are still homeless. I can assure you that no JW is in that position.

    I am not laboring under any misapprehensions about why Constantine made Roman Catholicism the state religion.
    He was a politician first and foremost and religious differences were dividing his empire. He saw parts of Christianity that he could incorporate into a "universal" faith. The pagans got to keep their primary beliefs and festivals and the "Christians" so weakened by apostasy, just accepted the changes because they had the appearance of being "Christian".

    This is the foundation of Roman Catholicism. No wonder Jesus says at the judgment..."I never knew you, get awy from me you workers of lawlessness". (Matthew 7:21-23) It is also why he said "few" were on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) :(
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I'm done here now Shiranui.....I have answered all your questions and yet you still have more.....what is left to say? You are free to believe whatever you like about the 'Mother Church'.

    Lets see how God feels about her, shall we? I believe we all know soon enough.
     
  11. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    Your inability to back up your claims with historical evidence is proof enough that your arguments hold no ground. I asked you repeatedly to show me historical evidence from the first centuries of Christianity for your Witnesses' existence, any writings of theirs, any trace, any mention from any historian or heresiologist or apologist that they ever existed and shared the same beliefs that you do. You gave me nothing. I asked you to show me where it says that the Apostles were the ones restraining the heresy, and that after they died the apostasy became complete. You gave me nothing. I asked you to show me hard proof that the Great Apostasy you spoke of would be complete. You gave me nothing.

    I believe in the Church because she can prove her existence and her continuity with the Apostles. I can trace the lineage of her teachings and her leaders all the way back to the Apostles without a problem. I can visibly see in the writings of the first Christians how early Christianity took form, took root, figured out how to express itself, and how it negotiated numerous questions about what the Church is, Who it is she believes in, how we are saved, and what the Christian's relationship to the Church, to God, to the world and to themselves should be. I can be sure in the Church's interpretation of the Bible because I see 2,000 years' worth of Christians who all taught the same thing, even before the Bible as we knew it was sorted out, canonized and accepted among all believers.

    All of your questions about the Church have answers that are perfectly in line with the Scriptures. All you have to do is be humble enough to listen to what others, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, have been telling you.

    Ouch, I hate to break it to you, but that's not the Gospel of John or the words of Jesus. That's the words of John in his first Epistle.

    This is the sad part. If you knew anything about the development of the concept of Hades/Sheol and of the soul throughout the history of the Bible, you would know better than the Watchtower. Heck, there wasn't even a concept of a general resurrection of the dead in the early parts of the Bible where everyone would be resurrected. That didn't start until centuries later.

    This is true of the early part of the Bible, yet we see that the concept slowly evolved overtime in the course of the composition of the Biblical texts. I would really encourage you to seek out Biblical scholarship on the issue. Check out Jewish Encyclopedia. Check out Richard Elliott Friedman. Check out some actual academic sources, many of which you can access in their entirety for free online. The information is out there for you to look at. You just have to be willing to look.

    So Constantine just poofed the Catholic Church into existence, is that your argument? Then what do we make of the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch (died in 105 AD), who refers to the Catholic Church by name in his Epistle to the Smyrnaeans? What do we make of the hundreds of bishops who came out of the Diocletian Persecution to attend the Council of Nicaea, many of them maimed and scarred after having confessed Christ openly? Did Constantine magically create hundreds of bishoprics out of thin air, complete with documented lineages?

    You're grasping at straws here. This refers to any Christian who didn't obey the commandments of Christ, including any within the Jehovah's Witnesses who fail to live up to His commandments. It doesn't refer to an apostasy.

    Then you have to explain 1 Kings 6, where God sees fit to sanctify and dwell in a Temple absolutely covered in images. The Ark of the Covenant itself featured two golden cherubim flanking the mercy seat at God's command, as we see in Exodus 25. God stated that His voice would come from the mercy seat--the God of Heaven and Earth sees fit to speak from above a golden sculpture made by human hands. God's commandments for the adornment of the Tabernacle required that the Israelites make images of animals, plants and cherubim. The Ark of the Covenant, a golden sculpture made by human hands, was also treated with the utmost respect--those who even dared to touch it were struck dead on the spot (1 Chronicles 13). Images have always been a feature of God's worship, though the images themselves were never worshipped.

    And so you look down on anyone who kneels before God? Do you kneel at your bedside in prayer? Or do you stand in reverence? Whether you kneel or stand before God, you are giving a gesture of respect. Whenever a king enters a room, his subjects always stood or knelt, depending on the culture. The same has always applied to the God of Heaven.

    Malachi 4:2:
    But to you who fear My name
    The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
    With healing in His wings;

    And you shall go out
    And grow fat like stall-fed calves.

    Christ is the Sun of Righteousness. The reason that Mary and the Saints are depicted with halos is because they shine with the light of Christ, as in 2 Corinthians 4:4. This is at least the tenth time people of various faiths have tried to get this point across to you on this forum.

    Yes, she is the mother of God the Word Incarnate, Jesus Christ.
    According to the Tradition, yes, she was.
    The Roman Catholics think so, due to their Augustinian definition of original sin. The question is moot in Byzantine theology as we don't believe in Augustine's nuances of original sin.
    Only after her death.
    Yes, the same way you and I are intercessors for anyone else. We have written record of prayers asking for Mary's intercession going all the way back to 250 AD.
    It depends on what you mean by "devotion". If you mean respect and affection, then sure. But if you mean worship, then absolutely not. Worship is for God and God alone. One should not even worship an image of Christ, the Holy Spirit, or the Father.
    She was well-respected by the first Christians, yes, and she is mentioned by St. Ignatius of Antioch as being the virgin mother of Christ. There are no extensive writings concerning Mary until the time of St. Justin Martyr in 150 AD, or St. Irenaeus in 180 AD.
     
    #31 Shiranui117, Aug 13, 2017
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  12. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    There are enough threads about the Trinity on here. If I want to debate you on this, I'll pick one of those other threads.

    So how do you explain Hannah giving up Samuel to the service of the Tabernacle? Samuel wasn't old enough to decide for himself whether or not he wanted to be a servant of the Tabernacle. Yet his mother's faith and vow was counted as his own.

    We do have records of entire households being baptized. You cannot reasonably rule out the possibility of children and even infants being involved in this family baptism.

    Good, you answered your own question. Case closed.

    And this is exactly how the forgiveness of sins is worded in the Sacrament of Confession in Orthodoxy and Eastern Catholicism. The priest pronounces God's forgiveness over the penitent.

    Private confessions are a phenomenon whose origins we can trace. It used to be that all confessions of sins were public, and made before the whole congregation. We can see a remnant of this practice in the "Kyrie" part of the Roman Mass, where the congregation all say together, "I confess to Almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned, that I have gravely sinned, in both my words and deeds, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do. Through my fault, through my most grievous fault..." Over the years, however, this practice began changing to prevent scandal among the congregation and to make it easier and less shameful for the penitent faithful to confess their sins. Because of this, private confessions evolved out of public confessions, so that anyone could be emboldened to confess their sins without fear of ridicule or shame.

    So wait, was that darkness 2,000 years ago when St. John, the last Apostle, died, or is that darkness coming in the future?

    People have been saying the same exact thing as you for 2,000 years straight now. Remember what Jesus said: "22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, ‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there! Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day."

    At least we admit when we were wrong and do what we can to make amends. I don't see the Watchtower making a mea culpa for any of the failed end-times predictions.
    And yet you have no proof of this. No historical records. No heresiological texts from apostolic or medieval eras detailing what the Catholic Church saw as the errors of either individuals or groups which match the description of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The only reason historians even know of the existence of many heretical groups from the early centuries of Christianity is because the Catholic Church wrote extensively about them. Have you heard of the Ebionites? Most other people didn't either until they read Eusebius' History of the Church.

    History tells us about the methods. History is utterly silent when it comes to any individuals from the early centuries AD who matched the profile of a Jehovah's Witness. The fact that you can't provide me a solitary name or a reference is resounding proof of this.

    And I suppose the Watchtower's interpretation of the Bible is a thousand times better. You know, with the whole bit of ignoring history and basic tools of textual criticism.

    So you admit that you have no evidence for any individuals who shared your beliefs prior to the 1800's, whereas I have mountains of primary documents detailing a steady stream of people who believed as the Church does from 50 AD onwards. Gotcha.

    The Church is full of sinners, and it always has been since the Apostles. The Apostles themselves deserted Christ after His Crucifixion. It took multiple personal visits for Him to convince the Apostles to get back up on the horse. Peter denied Christ three times, and he and everyone else were ready to throw in the towel until Christ showed up.

    You've shown me why, but you haven't disproven anything taught by the Church, I'm afraid.

    Which might explain why you've confused a single tree for the whole forest.
    And I have given you not just Scripture, but also historical sources in reply.

    If people dislike you and have already written your organization off as being a nuisance because of your methods, how are you supposed to get anyone to listen to you using those same methods? It's common sense in the world of public speaking, advertising and sales: Tailor the delivery of your message to your audience and get them to care.

    In all the criticisms I ever hear of the Jehovah's Witnesses, none of these things ever come up. People don't like you guys because of your door-to-door tactics, your shunning of even close family members who disagree with you, your seemingly blind-faith acceptance of whatever the Watchtower tells you to do or believe, your refusal to have friends with anyone outside of your denomination. If anything, I've heard people give you guys props for always preaching what you believe. But they dislike your organization for all the other reasons I've just mentioned.

    It's been fun as always, Deeje. Best of luck to you.
     
    #32 Shiranui117, Aug 13, 2017
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  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Another JW prediction as to when the end of times will be? Well, we know how all the other ones turned out.

    But instead of the JW leaders accepting the fact that they were wrong, they fabricated excuses-- and, logically, there were just that-- fabrications. One would think that others in the congregations would realize how wrong and disingenuous the leaders were, and I'm sure some left, but others just blindly accepted these excuses.

    That's how they work: admit no wrong, fabricate stories and lies, and then lead their congregation by the nose.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It looks a little different to those on the inside Metis.

    Jesus told us to "keep on the watch" because we do not know "the day or the hour". We have never pointed to 'a day or hour'.(Matthew 24:36, 42, 44)

    The whole point of a watchtower on a city wall was to keep on eye on the horizon and alert the city's inhabitants of anything approaching. Once the alert was sounded, the residents waited to hear about anything for which they needed to take action. If it proved to be a false alarm, everyone went back to business as usual. Never did my brothers ever say that any year was "it". The language was always "could be". Since the Bible says that "hope serves as an anchor for the soul" we are bouyed by hope, especially when we have been waiting so long for the end of all human suffering. Seeing the world situation at present also bouyes our hopes as conditions continue to deteriorate rapidly, politically, morally and spiritually. (Luke 21:28)

    There were no excuses. We knew it was a possibility, not ever a certainty. The hope kept us going and those who were selfishly serving a year instead of serving God, were weeded out. We have to be here for the long haul, all the while doing what Jesus commanded....preaching "the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations"....only then 'will the "end" come.' We have never stopped preaching. I can't see where the RCC ever started.

    Completely inaccurate. If that is your opinion, then it is based on false information. What else is new? (Matthew 5:11)

    When you have no defence.....what is left but to attack. It is clear to all honest hearted readers of this thread that the RCC is indefensible.

    If you want more, I'll happily provide more, but I think I have said enough for anyone to make decisions about who is telling the truth. History says it all.....they have condemned themselves.
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Just for the record......

    From your link.....

    "108 Martyrs of World War II
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    108 Martyrs of World War II
    [​IMG]
    John Paul II during his return visits to Poland in June 1999, Warsaw.....

    The 108 Martyrs of World War II, known also as the 108 Blessed Polish Martyrs (Polish: 108 błogosławionych męczenników), were Roman Catholics from Poland killed during World War II by Nazi Germany.

    Their liturgical feast day is 12 June. The 108 were beatified on 13 June 1999 by Pope John Paul II in Warsaw, Poland. The group comprises 3 bishops, 52 priests, 26 members of male religious, 3 seminarians, 8 female religious, and 9 lay people. There are two parishes named for the 108 Martyrs of World War II in Powiercie in Koło County, and in Malbork, Poland.[1]"


    According to your sources, not all of those martyred were actively put to death. Some died from hunger and disease rather than execution.

    Ever heard of the book, "Hitler's Pope" by John Cornwell?

    Here is a Summary......

    "Eugenio Pacelli was not a monster; his case is far more complex, more tragic than that. The interest of his story depends on a fatal combination of high spiritual aspirations in conflict with soaring ambitions for unprecedented power and control."--from the PrefaceEugenio Pacelli, Pius XII--a man with unprecedented power for good and evil--was pope from 1939 to 1958. Today, still shadowed by his failure to condemn Hitler's Final Solution, he is at the same time nearing canonization. Backed by new research and exclusive access to a wealth of Vatican and Jesuit archives, John Cornwell tells for the first time, in depth, the truth about Pacelli's long career as a Vatican diplomat and the accord between Pacelli and Hitler that helped sweep the Nazis to unhindered power.Hitler's Pope shows how Pacelli's entire life and career led to this, from a brilliant young Vatican lawyer drafting new papal power for the twentieth century to his 1933 Concordat with Hitler that muzzled protest by Germany's Catholic community, the most powerful in the world. Cornwell's explosive conclusion is that without Pacelli's contribution, Hitler might never have come to power or been able to press forward with the Holocaust.As searing and provocative as David Wyman's The Abandonment of the Jews or Daniel Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners, Hitler's Pope conclusively documents Pius XII's anti-Semitism, narcissism, and calamitous mix of political and spiritual ambition--and it shows how many of Pacelli's policies are reasserting themselves today under the reign of John Paul II. It will surely spark a worldwide furor of controversy, both inside and outside the Catholic Church."

    Hitler's pope : the secret history of Pius XII





    [​IMG]

    This is a plaque in the Holocaust Museum in NYC....it lists how many of my brothers were martyred in the Holocaust....1,900 were killed....executed. Out of 3,200 Witness who refused to support Hitler, a third of them lost their lives in the most appalling conditions. They were fully supported by their brotherhood and each other.

    The Nazi's were hard pressed to know how to deal with us....if they put JW's in with other prisoners, they preached to them....if they isolated them together away from other prisoners, they prayed, sang songs and praised Jehovah together and encouraged one another. (Romans 8:38-39)

    Also from Wiki....

    "Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in Nazi Germany
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Part of a series on

    The Holocaust
    [​IMG]

    Jehovah's Witnesses suffered religious persecution in Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1945 after refusing to perform military service, join Nazi organizations or give allegiance to the Hitler regime. An estimated 10,000 Witnesses—half of the number of members in Germany during that period—were imprisoned, including 2,000 who were sent to Nazi concentration camps. An estimated 1,200 died in custody, including 250 who were executed. They were the first Christian denomination banned by the Nazi government and the most extensively and intensively persecuted.[1]

    Unlike Jews and Romani who were persecuted on the basis of their ethnicity, Jehovah's Witnesses could escape persecution and personal harm by renouncing their religious beliefs by signing a document indicating renouncement of their faith, submission to state authority, and support of the German military.[2] Historian Sybil Milton concludes that "their courage and defiance in the face of torture and death punctures the myth of a monolithic Nazi state ruling over docile and submissive subjects."[3]

    The group came under increasing public and governmental persecution from 1933, with many expelled from jobs and schools, deprived of income and suffering beatings and imprisonment, despite early attempts to demonstrate shared goals with the National Socialist regime. Historians are divided over whether the Nazis intended to exterminate them, but several authors have claimed the Witnesses' outspoken condemnation of the Nazis contributed to their level of suffering."


    History is still telling the story.
     
    #35 Deeje, Aug 14, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    First of all, I have never defended the many morally repugnant actions taken by some in the RCC, but I refuse to condemn an entire organization, and that includes the JW's btw. You, otoh, stereotype and demean the entire RCC, which I believe is morally repugnant because, even as children, we are taught not to stereotype people or groups and not to judge a book by its cover. I see the RCC from the inside, and what I see is mixed, therefore I cannot and will not stereotype them or the church.

    Jesus said "judge ye not" and what you are showing here, and at quite a few other junctures, is that you really don't believe in what Jesus says because, if you did, you would do as he taught. "Stereotyping" is a form of judgement because it condemns not only the organization but also the people in it. If I say "I don't like black people", and your black, how would you feel, Deeje? Even if I come back and say "Well, it's that I don't like black people in general but I don't have a problem with you", does that make it OK?

    Deeje, you do not believe in Jesus when you ignore what he says and when you act immorally. You have a double-standard that is pathetically dishonest, and you have shown over and over again that you have far more faith in your JW leaders than you do in Jesus and the apostles and what they taught. Stereotyping is a form of dishonesty and inventing false narratives as you have continued to do is morally repugnant. Even when it's pointed out that you're wrong on something, you double-down on the dishonesty and refuse to admit and apologize that you're mistaken. Fortunately, I have known some JW's that don't act like that, including a neighbor of mine who I knew for roughly 30 years.

    My recommendation: attack the teachings that you think are wrong but do not stereotype and then attack any other denomination or religion. If you think you make the JW's and yourself look good when you label and then attack entire groups, you are wrong. Since when does stereotyping and blaming others make anyone look better or honest.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Thank you so much for that concession metis....but please let me make one thing very clear.....those who support an organization known for its corruption are just as complicit IMO.

    Paul wrote at Romans 1:32...after mentioning the things that God detests.....
    "Although these know full well the righteous decree of God, that those practicing such things are deserving of death, they not only keep on doing them but also consent with those practicing them."

    Those who consent, even if they never do the bad things themselves, are as guilty as those who practice these things.

    Have you ever asked why the church could ever have done what they did in the first place if they were following the example set by Jesus? Do you see that they created a false god with three heads who tortured people alive in flames forever. They were imitating the god that they themselves had created. They still promote that same god to this day.

    The RCC is an old institution with an appalling record of cruelty and abuse over many centuries. The corrupt Catholic hierarchy were at the base of all of it, not only leading people down the wrong path spiritually by incorporating pagan dogma into "Catholic" belief, but demonstrating in a real way that they were never serving the one they claim to represent. Who could imagine Jesus ever being complicit in their activities?

    You know what is wrong with that analogy metis? People can't help being black....but people can help being racist. Its all in the justification. What's the difference with someone saying "I hate JW's, but I don't have a problem with Deeje". It happens all the time. We get over it. (John 15:11-18) We can't be good individuals in a bad organization and still expect God's favor, especially when he has told us to remove ourselves completely from false worship. You can't do that unless you know what false worship is. Popular consensus has never been a good guide in this, as the first century Jews demonstrated. You can't mix true worship with false worship and expect God to accept it. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

    In the matter of judging, Jesus was speaking about judging fellow believers on a personal level by assuming that because someone did not live up to a standard set by themselves, that a person was not "saved". The Pharisees did this. They incorporated so many 'hedges' around the Law that it ended up being a complete farce. Collecting a few seeds of grain whilst walking through a field on the Sabbath became "harvesting"...killing a flea became "hunting".....a speck in a chicken egg was "consuming blood". The letter of the law taken to a ridiculous degree, killed the spirit of it and completely negated why the law was given. (Matthew 23:23-24)

    Because the religious leaders all held to the same standard, Jesus judged them collectively. That did not mean that individuals could not break rank and vote with their feet, leaving that corrupt system and throwing their lot in with a very unpopular minority in Jesus' day. The honest-hearted ones did....but they were "few".
    Ask why they were few.

    It is acting immorally NOT to expose the lies that were first introduced by Catholicism and carried on at the Reformation to Protestants. They did not 'protest' enough apparently. Now look at what "Christianity" has become...? A bigger farce than what Judaism became under the leadership of the Pharisees. :facepalm:

    History is repeating....ask why?

    The Bible says that the devil rules this world (1 John 5:19) He has three aspects to his power over humanity.....politics, commercialism and false religion. It is not difficult to see his stamp on all of them. I have faith in the scriptures, metis....not in those who think their words and actions are above them. Self-justification is as bad as self-righteousness. Being confident about your beliefs does not make you self-righteous....unless you think that Jesus and the apostles demonstrated that quality.....? Truth needs no apology.

    It is not dishonest to tell the truth. When have I lied? What are these false narratives I have supposedly invented? History speaks louder than I ever could.
    You can claim that I have not told the truth, but I don't see where you have ever refuted a thing I have said. Does the history of this "mother" church inspire you with confidence? The history of the Jewish religion under its corrupt leaders didn't inspire Jesus either. No one could cling to that religious system and remain in God's good books. No one can remain in "Babylon the great" and do so either. (Revelation 18:4-5)

    You cannot separate the church from the people. The church IS the people. The leadership is what makes the difference and when the leaders are corrupt, the people follow. That is the entire history of Israel if you care to check.

    In this "time of the end", according to scripture, God is having a warning sounded in all the earth. "Just like the days of Noah" Jesus said. Everyone has a choice to listen and respond to that warning or to do what the people in Noah's day did......nothing.

    Jesus said....(Matthew 24:32-33; 37-39)
    “Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near.33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.......For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

    They took no notice of Noah's warning....why? Because they simply didn't believe that what he said was true....if no one took him seriously and chose to ridicule him, that just fostered their confidence in rejecting what he said as nonsense.....by the time it became apparent that he was right, it was too late. Why do you think Jesus said it would happen again....and for all the same reasons?

    People's experiences with individual Witnesses are not necessarily indicative of the whole organization as you have said regarding Catholicism. Some have had very bad examples in people they know....that is unfortunate but nothing new. Humans are imperfect. When we understand that carrying God's name is a huge responsibility, none who bring reproach or who misrepresent God will go unpunished. Israel proved that. Following a bad lead never took anyone to a good place. :(

    Everyone has choices metis....they just need to be informed choices.
     
    #37 Deeje, Aug 15, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2017
  18. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    May I make a suggestion? Will you two start a thread in which you discuss everything that Jehovah's Witnesses and the Catholic Church have in common, beliefs, traditions, hymns, etc.?
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  19. Olinda

    Olinda Member

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    "Millions Now Living will never Die" - the slogan for the 1925 "coming". Where was the "could be" in that?
    o_O
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

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    I would but it would be empty....:( We have nothing in common.
     
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