1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Jehovah's Witnesses only: Questions regarding the resurrection in Jehovahs Witness theology

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Clear, Jan 27, 2021.

  1. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,503
    Ratings:
    +444
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hi @Brian2 and @Deeje

    Regarding the two different sets of interpretations which create two different descriptions of Resurrection

    Again, you two are simply describing the conflicting interpretations of two different religions.
    Brian2 is describing the earliest Judeo-Christian movements interpretation of scriptures.
    Deeje is describing a later set of interpretations from an 18th century Christian movement.

    Both are dependent upon historical interpretation.

    In early Judeo-Christianity, they believed in a spirit that existed inside each individual.
    The later, relatively modern Jehovahs Witness movements' interpretation did not believe in a spirit.

    The question still boils down to ancient historical interpretation versus a later 18th century interpretation.

    The early Judeo-Christians believed their interpretations of their text was correct while most later Christian movements such as the Jehovahs Witness believe their set of interpretations are correct.
    These are two different religions that interpret a similar set of texts very differently.
    I honestly cannot see the advantage of later sets of interpretations over the interpretations of the earliest Judeo-Christians.

    Clear
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,743
    Ratings:
    +7,614
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    You take the words of "the early Judeo-Christians" as gospel.....we do not. We take the Bible as gospel....that is the difference. We believe that Christ never taught what "the early Judeo-Christians" promoted. The foretold apostasy had already been "at work" for some time, and the seeds planted by the devil were already growing. We go back to the time of Jesus and the apostles, not the period or writings that came after them.
     
  3. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,763
    Ratings:
    +2,590
    Religion:
    None
    Regarding the JW's and resurrection (As I used to be a JW)

    The current person, who does not have an immortal soul, dies and is destroyed. The soul doesn't live on as there is none.

    God keeps that person in his memory and implants them in a new perfect body.

    Now regarding the body and memories, they are all edited:
    -The body is edited or made brand new so that any genetic, sin or other deficiency is taken away. The genes are edited to make our body perfect.
    - Personality is edited, as sinful tendencies are edited out. So people won't be prone to anger and such things.
    - The mind is edited so that it can work at max level.
    - Memories are edited so that nobody will remember the bad, so quite a bit of life experience is taken away.

    So it is more accurate to say that God is reengineering a person by taking parts of their previous self and purifying it to make perfection. That means that it is considered a clone or a genetically modified self, and in either case the person isn't the same person as before. Especially from a personality standpoint.

    If this is the case, then I don't understand why God bothers eliminating people according to JW theology. He can pretty much modify everyone to become perfect, even Hitler. There is no reason why our actions in this life must affect whether we are resurrected in the next, because our tendencies and sinful nature would be taken away, so someone like Hitler wouldn't be a bad person anymore if he was edited. Also, nobody would have learnt from anything that happened in this world, because they wouldn't remember any of the bad, so there is no lesson learnt either.

    This also raises the question of what the meaning of resurrection is and whether JW theology is describing a resurrection at all. Lazareth and Jesus retained the same memories and personality upon resurrection, as they themselves were brought back to life. JW theology isn't necessarily describing someone being brought back to life. They are being recreated like a genetically modified clone in a lab. DNA is being used, so part of the previous person is in there, but the new being is different on fundamental levels. If God is modifying someone from "DNA" then that person isn't actually resurrected. It is just parts of them used to make someone else.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    2,511
    Ratings:
    +393
    Religion:
    Christian
    I think I just got a clearer picture of what you were trying to say. I think it was that because you have not died yet, God has nothing of you to resurrect.
    If that is the case then I would say that when you die in JW theology there is also nothing to resurrect.
     
  5. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    2,511
    Ratings:
    +393
    Religion:
    Christian
    In languages the gender of the word is not necessarily referring to the gender of the thing or person it refers to.
    Spirit may be neutral gender in the language but does not necessarily mean that the spirit is an it.
    However even if spirit is an it and is not male or female, that does not mean that it is not alive, just as angels are alive.
    The spirit of man is not male or female but is alive. When it was given to Adam it was not a person, it was a spirit force (so to speak) and it was in the body of Adam and started to develop a personhood along with the body, as it experienced things and learned things. The whole person, body and spirit and mind, is the soul.
    When the person dies, the body disintegrates to dust and the spirit carries on and is still alive. Then it is what remains of the person and is the totality of that person and is called a soul. It is not complete without a body and when it is joined to another body at the resurrection the whole person there, body, mind and spirit, is then the soul of the person. This is how someone is resurrected without it being just a copy of the person.
    That is my understanding anyway.
     
  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    2,511
    Ratings:
    +393
    Religion:
    Christian
    My understanding is that every person who has lived will be resurrected and so that would mean that all are alive in the memory of God.
    The reason I see the OT saints of Heb 11 as being resurrected and being in the new Jerusalem on earth with the Lamb and with God in His Kingdom is because that is what the Bible teaches us, and I have shown you scriptures about these things I think. Rev 3:12, Rev 21, Heb 11, Luke 13:28 etc
    The reason that I don't see 2 classes of Christians, one in heaven and the other on earth forever, is because the Bible does not teach this.
     
  7. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2020
    Messages:
    2,511
    Ratings:
    +393
    Religion:
    Christian
    They will be the same person if they are resurrected, but will not be the same person if they are just a copy of the original.
    Jesus was resurrected because He gave His spirit up to God when He died and received the same spirit back.
    Jesus became a man, not because God made a body for Him that remembered who He was. He came down from heaven as the spirit that somehow impregnated Mary and was joined to a body in that way and became a man.
    He humbled Himself when He found Himself in human likeness, but that would have been even before He could think with a brain in human terms. He lived in His temple, His body, and that temple was destroyed and raised again after 3 days. John 2:19-21
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  8. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,503
    Ratings:
    +444
    Religion:
    Christian
    @Israel Khan

    Thank you so much for being straight and to the point. It was bothersome, trying to wade through irrelevant stuff to find the data.
    Your description as a prior Jehovahs Witness is consistent with what I am getting from Believing and educated Jehovahs Witness friends and Private Messaging from Jehovahs Witnesses whom I trust.

    THE ANCIENT DOCTRINE OF RESURRECTION VERSUS A DOCTRINE OF NEW CREATION
    Regarding some of your points :

    @Israel Kahn said : "Now regarding the body and memories, they are all edited:" (post #43)
    This was a principle that I wanted to get to (and @Brian2 seemed to have this same insight as well).

    If the personality is "edited" or "changed" then it is no longer a re-surrection of the original person.
    It is, instead, a creation of an "edited" or modified or version of the original person that is being recreated.
    A new creation of a different version of the original is not a resurrection, but a new creation.

    This is a profound difference between ancient the Judeo-Christian and the relatively modern religion created by the Jehovahs Witness movement.


    PHILOSOPHICAL QUESTIONS THAT THIS DOCTRINE OF A "NEW CREATION" (INSTEAD OF A RESURRECTION) RAISES

    1) Why suffering and evil if they have no purpose

    @Israel Kahn said : "If this is the case, then I don't understand why God bothers eliminating people according to JW theology. He can pretty much modify everyone to become perfect, even Hitler. There is no reason why our actions in this life must affect whether we are resurrected in the next, because our tendencies and sinful nature would be taken away, so someone like Hitler wouldn't be a bad person anymore if he was edited. " (post #43)
    I agree that this sort of theological doctrine raises the same question as the philosophers and religionists raised against ex-nihilo creation.
    For example, If God could have created individuals who were morally good without evil tendencies, why didn't he?
    If God was going to ultimately create such morally perfect individuals, he could have avoided much of the evil and oppression and suffering that occurred before the ultimate creation of a morally perfect population.
    It is such questions that help form my opinion that the later religions do not have any advantage over the earliest and most ancient (more original) form of Christianity with it's doctrines.


    @Israel Kahn said : "Also, nobody would have learnt from anything that happened in this world, because they wouldn't remember any of the bad, so there is no lesson learnt either."
    While my Jehovahs Witness friends have not specifically speculated that all evil memories would be erased, I agree that there is no point in going through suffering and evil if they are not part of our ultimate memories.
    One early Jewish description of this life was that it was a "school" to which mankind are sent "in order to learn the ways of the palace" before they return to the kings household.
    Such descriptions of sending the spirits of mankind off to a moral school, seem, in my estimation, to be more rational and more logical and more intuitive models.
    Life is not a tutoring experience unless the lessons are retained.

    @Israel Kahn said : "This also raises the question of what the meaning of resurrection is and whether JW theology is describing a resurrection at all. Lazareth and Jesus retained the same memories and personality upon resurrection, as they themselves were brought back to life. JW theology isn't necessarily describing someone being brought back to life. They are being recreated like a genetically modified clone in a lab. DNA is being used, so part of the previous person is in there, but the new being is different on fundamental levels. If God is modifying someone from "DNA" then that person isn't actually resurrected. It is just parts of them used to make someone else."

    This is the same ultimate point I wanted to know about when I started asking questions.

    If the original person is not re-surrected (i.e. risen again), then it is not a re-surrection at all.
    If the original person is annihilated then they cannot BE resurrected. They simply don't exist.

    What I think this new doctrine describes is a new creation of a different individual who was a lot like the first one (with "editing" as you call it).
    If this is a correct description of the Jehovahs Witness doctrine, then this is not a re-surrection at all.


    While I don't know much about the relatively modern religions with their interpretations that were created in the more modern eras (such as the Jehovahs Witness movement), I do not see any advantages of these later, more modern religions over the earliest, more original Christian Religion itself.

    In any case, I hope your own journey through life is wonderful and insightful and fascinating Israel Kahn.

    Thanks so much for being straight to the questions I was actually asking.


    Clear
    σιφισιω
     
  9. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,743
    Ratings:
    +7,614
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    @Clear I would just like to address this erroneous list of statements.....defectors are not always the best source of information in our experience.....as this post demonstrates.

    This is complete rubbish. Nowhere does it say in any of our published literature that we believe this.

    The reason why the 1,000 year reign of Christ and his “elect” is allotted, is so that those resurrected as they were, have the choice to serve God out of their own free will. Their genetics are not edited at all but if there is physical damage before death, due to accident or disease, then that damage will be repaired, just as it was with Lazarus. He was dead for four days and it was acknowledged by his sister that decomposition would already be under way. His body was repaired and Lazarus was resurrected. He had no recollection of being anywhere....and besides, why would Jesus bring his friend back to this life only to die again, if he had gone to heaven or somewhere better? :shrug: Jesus simply said what the ancient Jews believed...Lazarus was "sleeping".

    When Jesus said that he would resurrect both the “righteous and the unrighteous” (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15) it was with the intent to grant life to those who had already proven themselves to be obedient to Christ’s teachings as well as all those in times past who had demonstrated their faith by obedience to God.

    James 2:18-22 speaks of Abraham in this way...."someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. . . .But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works”

    Those who did "vile things", Jesus said will still be resurrected as they were, but given the opportunity to change their ways of their own free will during a period of judgment. It was not their fault that they lived in times or locations where the true God and the teachings of his son were unknown. With an education one dispels ignorance, leading to informed choice.....but sadly some retain their ignorance despite being educated. That is the difference. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-13)

    Again, this is nonsense. The personality of the individual as well as all their past life experiences will remain intact. Any "reengineering" of the genome will take place gradually during the reign of Jesus and his anointed "kings and priests". If humans were raised perfect, then the services of a High Priest and his priesthood would be unnecessary.

    Any who fail to comply during the 1,000 years, will be eliminated during that time of readjustment. Like those who will be eliminated at the final judgment of this world, the "Lord's day" will be a time of testing before one final test at the end, before Jesus hands everything back to his Father to continue what he started in Eden. (1 Cor 15:21-28)

    Precedents will be set for all time to come so that God's Universal Sovereignty can never be challenged again.....not by humans or by angels.

    :facepalm: .....apparently this poster has very limited education in our beliefs. It bears no resemblance to anything we believe.

    "For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
    And the former things will not be called to mind,
    Nor will they come up into the heart."
    ...(Isaiah 65:17)
    This is a promise that no trauma we have suffered in life will cause us lasting harm, because those awful memories will fade as life in the new world will replace bad memories with good ones.

    That evaluation is not what we believe at all......if "you" died and "you" woke up in a healthy body but retained all that was "you" as a former personality with all memories intact, how is that person not you? Since we have a process of cell renewal as a natural part of our physical regeneration, every cell in our body is being physically replaced all the time. But it isn't our body that makes us who we are...its our personality and our experiences and memories that do that....if all that is re-implanted, then the "person" is the same "person".

    That is their version of events...not ours. How do any of us know how God can manipulate his own creation. The limited human viewpoint is not God's viewpoint. How do humans tell God what is possible and what is not? This is the height of disrespectful ignorance IMO.

    We can't tell God how to conduct his own business, nor do we need to understand all the details, as if we could comprehend it anyway. God tells us "what" he will do....he does not divulge the "how". (Isaiah 55:8-9)
     
    #49 Deeje, Jan 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2021
  10. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,503
    Ratings:
    +444
    Religion:
    Christian
    @Israel Kahn said : "Now regarding the body and memories, they are all edited:" (post #43)
    Clear said : “This was a principle that I wanted to get to (and @Brian2 seemed to have this same insight as well).” (post #48)
    @Deeje said : “This is complete rubbish. Nowhere does it say in any of our published literature that we believe this.” (post #49)


    @Deeje, can you clarify?

    Are you saying that the Jehovahs’ Witnesses believe that when God creates the duplicate of the original person who died, that the duplicate has ALL the prior inadequacies and faults they had when they died?

    The question is "Does God create an EXACT duplicate, without ANY changes at all, or does God make modifications to the personality of the duplicate he creates in the Jehovahs Witness version of the resurrection?"

    Can you be SPECIFIC regarding the official Jehovahs’ Witness doctrine?



    Clear
    σινετζω
     
    #50 Clear, Jan 30, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,743
    Ratings:
    +7,614
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    We do not believe that its a duplicate....it is the same "person"...same identification, same memories, same personality....but not the same body. Can I make that any clearer?

    God re-creates the person who died. Please stop calling it a duplicate. That is your idea not ours. OK? Its not a "lookalike".....its the same person.....How does one get that message through to you? God will restore everything that makes that person who they were.

    If even the "unrighteous" are to be resurrected, then what does that tell you? People who died are not judged at their death...they are judged at their resurrection......some come back to life, as those faithful to death, they are not judged.....others come back to a period of judgement where they will be given an opportunity to be educated in Jehovah's ways. The Kingdom rules for 1,000 years so there is ample time for people to change their ways. If they do not, they will be removed. No one will be permitted to remain to spoil things for others.....or it wouldn't be paradise, would it?

    There are no modifications as to personality or memories or experiences......all will be as they were before.
    Please read that sentence carefully.

    If they were physically damaged by accident or disease, then the body they are given would be whole and healthy, but we have no guarantees about what age they will be. That is up to God. It may be a younger version of ourselves, or it may be the age that the person was when they died. Mothers will probably be able to raise lost children. The Bible does not tell us....and quite frankly, it doesn't matter. We trust that the Creator knows what he is doing. It is his will that is accomplished, not ours. We will just be grateful to be alive again with the King Christ Jesus and his chosen priesthood ruling over us, the prospects for the future will be absolutely beyond our wildest dreams. We have never experienced the paradise that Adam and his wife lost. Think of the best outcome possible and then some.

    I have been specific all this time Clear.....you simply have difficulty comprehending what I have told you for some reason.... :shrug:
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  12. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,763
    Ratings:
    +2,590
    Religion:
    None
    So Deeje, is only half right about the resurrection in the 1000 years. There are two forms of resurrection in JW theology, those of the anointed and those of everybody else. The first resurrection is already happening. The anointed are raised immediately from death to perfection. I forgot to distinguish between which in my post.

    Also, if defects of the body are removed, and diseases are often on a genetic level, then the body has to be edited. Regarding your point about new cells, the cells are new but the DNA isn't changed, therefore one with genetic diseases still retain those diseases. I am talking about change on a DNA level, which is genetic modification.

    OK. Lets see what you guys say:

    Regarding the anointed who are raised to heaven:

    “How Are the Dead to Be Raised Up?” | Watchtower Study (jw.org)

    Under "What sort of body?"

    "8. What illustration can help us to understand the resurrection to heavenly life?

    8 When someone dies, his body decomposes. But the One who created the universe from nothing can resurrect that person, giving him a suitable body. (Gen. 1:1; 2:7) Paul used an illustration to show that God would not need to bring back the same body. Think of “a bare grain,” or a plant “seed.” A seed of grain that is planted in the ground germinates and becomes a new plant. The resulting plant is quite different from the small seed. Paul used this comparison to show that our Creator can provide “a body just as it [pleases] him.”"

    10. How might differences in bodies relate to the resurrection?

    10 Note what Paul said next: “So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption.” Of course, upon dying, the human body decays and returns to the dust. (Gen. 3:19) So how can it be that a body is “raised up in incorruption”? Paul was not speaking of a human who is resurrected to life on earth, such as those raised by Elijah, Elisha, and Jesus. Paul was referring to a person who is resurrected with a heavenly body, that is, “a spiritual one.”—1 Cor. 15:42-44."

    "12 Paul was reaching the climax of his discussion of the resurrection. It is important to note that Jesus was not resurrected with a human body. Paul pointedly said: “Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom” in heaven. (1 Cor. 15:50) The apostles and other anointed ones would not be resurrected to heaven with corruptible bodies of flesh and blood. When would they be resurrected? Paul stressed that this resurrection still lay ahead; it was not something they would experience right after they died. By the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, some disciples had already “fallen asleep in death,” for example, the apostle James. (Acts 12:1, 2) Other apostles and anointed ones would yet fall “asleep in death.”—1 Cor. 15:6."

    For someone to inherit an incorruptible body, that body has to be edited or a new one given to them.

    Regarding sin being genetic:

    What Was the Original Sin? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)]

    Under the heading "A Grasp at Moral Independence"

    "By asserting their independence, Adam and Eve irreparably damaged their relationship with Jehovah and inflicted sin’s imprint upon their organism, right to its genetic foundations. True, they lived for hundreds of years, but they began to die “in the day” of their sin, as a branch severed from a tree would. (Genesis 5:5) Moreover, for the first time, they sensed an internal disharmony. They felt naked and tried to hide from God. (Genesis 3:7, 8) They also felt guilt, insecurity, and shame. Their sin produced an upheaval within them, their consciences accusing them of wrongdoing."

    "13. What can a person do about (a) the bad tendencies he has ‘picked up’ from his environment? (b) his |inherited tendencies that are bad?

    13 Even today a person can genuinely get rid of the things that he has ‘picked up’ from his environment, with the help of God’s Word, His spirit and his own association with God’s servants. But it is different with the things that come through his genetic makeup, that are a part of him, physically and mentally. True, he can fight these faults with considerable success, for the apostles tell us that we can ‘make our minds over,’ “put on the new personality,” ‘produce the fruits of the spirit,’ “hold a good conscience” and ‘maintain fine conduct.’ (Romans 12:2; Ephesians 4:24; Galatians 5:22, 23; 1 Peter 3:16; 2:12) But we cannot completely wipe out these bad inherited tendencies merely through such effort. The apostle said of his situation: “Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.”—Romans 7:24, 25.|"

    For genetic affects of sin to disappear, the body has to be edited obviously.

    Regarding memory:

    Why Would God Permit Suffering? — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

    "20. How will the suffering of the past be erased?

    20 While the suffering of centuries has been very painful for those who have been victimized by it, it has served a good purpose. It could be compared to permitting your child to have a painful operation to correct a major health problem. The long-term benefits far outweigh any temporary pain. In addition, the future that God has purposed for this earth and humans on it will lift the weight of the past from memory: “The former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.” (Isaiah 65:17) Hence, whatever suffering that humans have experienced will eventually be erased from the minds of those living when God’s rulership holds sway over all the earth. At that time the joys will crowd out all the previous bad memories, for God “‘will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.’ And the One seated on the throne said: ‘Look! I am making all things new.’”—Revelation 21:4, 5."

    This supports Deejes point regarding those resurrected on earth.

    Also:

    The End of Sickness and Death — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

    "16 As to the resurrected ones, God will accurately “re-create” each individual with his entire life pattern, personality and memory just as it was. The one resurrected will be able to identify himself as the same person. Also, his former associates will know him by his appearance and characteristics. He can then resume life after the interruption caused by his death, possessing the same motivations, leanings and traits that he displayed beforehand. However, his past sins and mistakes will not be brought up as charges against him. Why not? Because God’s purpose in bringing him back to earth is to provide opportunity for him to take advantage of Christ’s sacrifice and be freed of sin. Yet, what the individual did in the past, if bad, would have its effect on his personality, and the resulting bad traits would have to be overcome. The more unrighteous his past course was, the more he will have to change. Some may not take advantage of the opportunity to change.—Isaiah 26:10."

    Repatterning of the personality:

    Resurrection — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY (jw.org)

    "God’s ability to resurrect. For the One with the ability and power to create man in His own image, with a perfect body and with the potential for full expression of the marvelous characteristics implanted in the human personality, it would pose no insurmountable problem to resurrect an individual. If scientific principles established by God can be used by scientists to preserve and later reconstruct a visible and audible scene by means of videotape, how easy it is for the great Universal Sovereign and Creator to resurrect a person by repatterning the same personality in a newly formed body. Concerning the revitalizing of Sarah to have a child in her old age, the angel said: “Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah?”—Ge 18:14; Jer 32:17, 27."

    What is also weird, is if sin is inherited, and causes our sinful nature, then how is it that people can change on their own during a thousand years if they just work hard at it? And with the anointed, they undergo instant change, so their sin is immediately taken away isn't it?

    Is recreation the same as resurrection?

    If the personality is "repatterned" then it is a copy of it and not the same thing. It is like someone copying a picture form memory and drawing it perfectly. It is still a copy, not the original.

    I didn't want to overcomplicate this post as there is a lot more from JW.org to unpack.



     
  13. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,763
    Ratings:
    +2,590
    Religion:
    None
    As usual, Deeje is getting upset about semantics, but does not realise that I am just not using JW terminology to describe things. Re-patterning, re-creating something by their definition means that what you are creating is not the original.

    Converting something from corruptible to incorruptible means that something has to be edited for the change to occur. The same with genetic defects.

    It seems that I was wrong about the memory being edited, as it seems that the JW's use of "erasing" means that people will be in such a good place that they won't remember the negativity of the past.

    People changing their personality to a sinless one on their own doesn't make sense though. Humans are incapable of doing that as JW publications show. So how could they do that in 1000 years without editing? Also, a lot of personality problems arise from genetic defects, so by editing genetics the personality would be edited.
     
  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,763
    Ratings:
    +2,590
    Religion:
    None
    @Clear

    I think that the core question to ask here is "What is God's plan for removing sin?"? How will he achieve it?
     
  15. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,763
    Ratings:
    +2,590
    Religion:
    None
    In summary, regarding originals vs duplicates:

    Those who are alive when the resurrection starts are not duplicates.

    Anointed who have died for the past 100 years have personalities transferred immediately to their spiritual bodies, so they are not duplicates in personality, but what isn't understandable is whether their sinful nature resulting from personality is taken away. It would be weird to have sinful people as leaders.

    Everybody else who died before then, anointed and normals, have had their bodies decomposed and personalities have disappeared, only being retained in god's memory. God will create their personalities from memory, so they will be duplicates.

    So you have a combination of duplicates and originals during the 1000 years.
     
  16. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2017
    Messages:
    3,763
    Ratings:
    +2,590
    Religion:
    None
    Something that should be noted is that JW theology doesn't only come from publications. They are also expressed on public platforms and on JW broadcast.

    With regards to memory being erased, I already rectified the point in a previous post because of what I could find on JW.org.

    But, my conclusions about their theology doesn't only come from what is directly said by them but by the implications of what they are saying.

    JW's tend not to think about implication of doctrines, so they often revert to the same talking points and simplified points, but tend not to respond very well to nuanced questions. Also, they aren't to the point, but use a lot of emotive language, tending to beat around the bush, which is a JW cultural thing.

    JW's tend to say things such as people are resurrected and retain the same personality, but this conflicts with their idea of perfection, in which people are no longer sinful, as Deeje already admitted that diseases get eliminated, but fails to connect that this involves editing of DNA and the body itself which affects our personalities, therefore the body and personality are edited. She also forgets what happens with the anointed which is a completely different process which raises more questions about how their sin is eliminated.

    Then there is the question of how can people correct themselves in 1000 years, if they are not edited, as sin according to them, has genetic consequences, hence why our bodies are not perfect.

    Now what JW's believe does not necessarily reflect what their organisation says. One example is the idea that Christ is everybody's mediator when in fact their theology says that he only mediates between God and the anointed, implying that the anointed mediate between Christ and the non anointed, so they are also our mediators. Therefore there is no longer one mediator between man and God. Yet most JW's will say that only Jesus is our mediator.

    And thanks. My life is great. I will make mistakes in replying to you (I haven't concerned myself with JW's in 2 years) but I will try my best.
     
    #56 Israel Khan, Jan 31, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    8,257
    Ratings:
    +2,407
    Religion:
    Follower of Christ
    Thank you Deeje.

    That evaluation is not what we believe at all......if "you" died and "you" woke up in a healthy body but retained all that was "you" as a former personality with all memories intact, how is that person not you? Since we have a process of cell renewal as a natural part of our physical regeneration, every cell in our body is being physically replaced all the time. But it isn't our body that makes us who we are...its our personality and our experiences and memories that do that....if all that is re-implanted, then the "person" is the same "person".

    That is what @Clear does not seem to be getting.
    Who or what am I? When God looks at me, what does he see? When my spouse looks at me, what do they see?
    If I get in a terrible accident, and is burnt beyond recognition, what do we see? Who or what am I?
    Does outward appearance determine me?

    If they just understand that "You" is not the body, but "You" is the person at heart - the innermost person - what make you "You", then it should be easy to understand that God remembers "You". God resurrects "You". God gives "You" a body - whether physical or spiritual.

    @Clear
    "You" die when the spirit - what keeps you alive and breathing - leaves your body. Because the person, which is the whole being - soul, dies.
    verb
    1. stop living.

      Similar:
      pass away
      pass on
      lose one's life
      depart this life
      expire
      breathe one's last
      draw one's last breath
      be no more
      perish
    Because "You" the person, however, is not destroyed by God - that is, erased from his memory - his book of remembrance, "You" are living to God... even though you have died.

    In death, the person is gone. They perished. The brain is dead - gone, and so are their thoughts. Hence you are nothing. Nonexistent. "You" cease to exist.

    Let's transfer to heaven now.
    "You" are in God's care - stored safely in his memory - his book of remembrance, if that helps.
    Therefore, "You" are alive.... to God. Remember, we are looking from heaven.
    "You" are really not the molecular structure. Nor are you some internal entity - some immortal being.
    What make you "You", is your personality, characteristics...
    A person has personality, and characteristics. That's what makes an individual.

    In order to exist as a person though, you need... as a human, a body, and spirit. To exist as a spirit, "You" need a spirit body - a body higher than a physical being.
    ... but either case, "You" are still "You", because why? What makes "You"?

    Sorry to drag on, but I thought I should try to be as simple as possible.
    I have to say though Clear, that I can appreciate @Deeje's, frustration when you keep saying God makes a duplicate.
    If you keep saying that, even though we don't believe it, it is frustrating. It's frustrating to me, because it is as though you want to make your belief ours.

    If you are really interested in what we belief, should you not listen, to what we say, and try to understand, rather than say what you think?
    Or don't you want to know the JWs theology?
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  18. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,503
    Ratings:
    +444
    Religion:
    Christian
    WHETHER AN EXACT COPY OR EXACT RE-CREATION IS A DUPLICATE OR NOT

    Deeje, regarding your complaint against using the word "duplicate" for the "exact copy" of an original person who died.

    Deeje asked : “Can I make that any clearer?” (post #51)

    Yes, you can.

    Firstly : It would be more clear if the conversation can remain logical and rational without trying to redefine standard definitions.

    For example, you argue
    1) The original person is annihilated at death (i.e. nothing about that person exists any longer except in the memory of another)
    You then claim
    2) An exact “reproduction” and a “recreation” of the original person is “re-created” at resurrection.

    An exact copy or reproduction IS the definition of a "duplicate".
    However, you then ask us to stop using the term “duplicate” (which is “an exact copy of” the original person which was annihilated).

    So, to make things clearer, you could start by being logical and rational and consistent and allow that a "duplicate" is "an exact copy" which is what a re-creation of an original is by definition.

    Secondly, you could make your explanations clearer if you leave out irrelevant information. Sifting through irrelevant statements often obscures and complicates the relevant data.

    Thirdly, you could make explanations clearer if you concentrate on the specific question you are asked.

    ANNIHILATION IS NON-EXISTENCE, DUPLICATION IS AN EXACT COPY
    If one is to speak logically and rationally, then an annihilated person no longer exists.
    If God makes another person exactly like the original then this re-creation is an "exact copy of", an "exact re-production of", an "exact re-creation of" and thus an "exact duplicate of" the dead person.

    UNLESS there is something different with the reproduction, re-creation, or copy, it is a "duplicate" of the original.

    IF there is something DIFFERENT about the intelligence, morals, character, personality, emotions, etc of the duplicate/reproduction/re-created/re-production, then they are not duplicates or "exact copies. It should go, without having to clarify, that the bodies of resurrected persons are different if they live forever.

    My understanding of Jehovahs Witness Theology (which you have described), is that upon death and dissolution of the Body, there is NOTHING left of the original person other than memories of others.

    In Jehovahs Witness Theology, the original personality is re-created in an exact duplication / copy of the original personality and it is part of the new resurrected body that is created. However, some active, believing, informed Jehovahs Witnesses have told me it is their understanding that there are modifications to the personality such as with enhanced memory. (but they admit this is speculation on their part).

    In the case of the ancient who had died 4,000 years ago, the person who is resurrected is a duplicate or exact copy or exact "re-creation" of the person who had died anciently.

    Do I understand these specifics correctly or not?




    Clear
    νετζδρω
     
    #58 Clear, Jan 31, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
    • Winner Winner x 1
  19. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    2,503
    Ratings:
    +444
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hi @nPeace

    nPeace said : "Because "You" the person, however, is not destroyed by God - that is, erased from his memory - his book of remembrance, "You" are living to God... even though you have died." (post #57)

    You and I have discussed this in our private conversations.

    When you say that we are "alive" in memory, you are speaking metaphorically.
    The actual person is not, literally alive. Their bodies are not literally alive.
    "Memory" of a person is NOT the person itself.

    The fact that God and the rest of us "remember" the dead person does not literally mean they are "living". It simply means we remember them when they were alive. If God keeps a memory of the persons body, the decomposed body is not literally alive, but it is literally "dead".

    The early Judeo-Christians did not view the resurrection as metaphorically true, but as literally true.

    For example, after Jesus died, the resurrected Jesus appeared to the apostles and many others. These were not metaphorical appearances, but actual, literal occurrences.
    When Matt 27:52-53 witnesses that "The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…" this is not a metaphorical statement in early Judeo-Christianity. It is a written witness to a literal occurrence.



    nPeace said : "I have to say though Clear, that I can appreciate @Deeje's, frustration when you keep saying God makes a duplicate.
    If you keep saying that, even though we don't believe it, it is frustrating. It's frustrating to me, because it is as though you want to make your belief ours." (post #57)


    Jehovahs Witnesses do not get to change the dictionary definitions to make their statements more palatable.
    If you claim something is an "exact reproduction" then you need to tell us why an "exact reproduction" or and "exact re-creation" is not an exact "duplicate".
    You cannot do this by the claim that an original thing or person that is annihilated and no longer exists can later exist without re-creation (which means a thing or person is "created again")
    The re-creation is not the original thing or person, it is a re-creation.

    Can you explain the difference between exact copy or exact re-production or exact re-creation and exact duplicate in a LOGICAL and RATIONAL terms without bending the rules of language or lapsing into metaphorical use?

    I certainly will yield to your claim that an "exact reproduction,copy,re-creation, etc." is not a "duplicate" if you can demonstrate your claim.
    It doesn't work to simply become frustrated and say readers "just don't understand".

    What is wrong with any of the descriptions :
    Exact copy
    Exact duplicate
    Exact re-production
    Exact re-creation
    etc.

    Can you explain this to readers in a logical and rational way?

    What words would you prefer to use instead of the words I have offered?


    Clear
    νετζδρω
     
    #59 Clear, Jan 31, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,743
    Ratings:
    +7,614
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    And you do not get to put your own spin on our beliefs to suggest things that we do not believe to be true. If they are not your beliefs, then so be it....ignore them. It makes no difference to us what you want to believe....we do not owe you an explanation other than what we have already given you.....OK?

    Because you can't "duplicate" people. God is not duplicating anyone in the resurrection. That is your interpretation of what occurs.....not ours. You are suggesting that God can make copies of people when that is not at all what resurrection is. If the person is returned to life, are you saying that God must do this is the way you think he should? God will do it in whatever way he sees fit ,and he does not require your approval or understanding.

    We have never said that that a deceased person is "annihilated".....only those in "gehenna" are "annihilated". (i.e. taken out of existence permanently) That expression means to be completely obliterated, but that is not the case with the vast majority of those who have died, as it says in Luke and as my brother has endeavored to explain (and you still don't get it)....

    "But that the dead are raised up, even Moses made known in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ 38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.(Luke 20:37-38)

    If Jesus referred to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as "living to God" it does not mean that these were literally alive somewhere, because according to Paul, all of the faithful ones of old, died without seeing the fulfillment of the promises. (Hebrews 11:13) Since the ancient Jews had no notion of life after death, there was no place where these could go according to Jewish belief. "Sheol" was simply the grave, not some kind of spiritual 'holding tank' for disembodied spirits.

    But sheol is not a permanent place to sleep.....it is a place of 'rest' where everyone goes to await their resurrection. If you have children 'sleeping' in a room next to you, are they annihilated and out of your memory? This is what you are suggesting to us by this line of reasoning that you persist in. As far as God is concerned, the dead are sleeping in the next room until it is time for him to wake them up. He has authorized his son to do that. (John 5:28-29) He calls them from their graves.....read it.

    It won't matter how we explain it....you cannot comprehend what we are saying because you do not have God's view of death....you have Christendom's view of death....and it is all wrong, according to what we believe. There is no immortal soul mentioned in any passage of scripture. Please present any verse that has those two words side by side in any part of the Bible.

    Its like trying to tell a blind person what color is.....no matter how we put it, you will not accept it...and you know what...? It doesn't matter. If you cannot comprehend our explanation then why should we continue to try and make you understand? What is accomplished?

    I believe I already have, but your logic is apparently not my logic.

    Again....you cannot duplicate people. God can indeed "re-create" a person, but that is not a duplicate like a carbon copy. A new body is created from exactly the same elements as God used to create Adam. The personality of the individual is then re-implanted in the consciousness of that individual. They will identify themselves as who they were with all their memories intact.....and others will also recognize their loved ones. Death is simply "life interrupted" for those who are in sheol/hades.....but for those in "gehenna"...it is life completely withdrawn, permanently. For those who go to heaven, it is a resurrection with a spiritual body, like Jesus.

    We have already told you all you need to know....so I will not respond further. This is just getting ridiculous.
     
Loading...