Jehovah's Witnesses only: Is it true?

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Is it true that you believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael?

 

[Pegg]

Is it true that you believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael?

Yes,

the scriptural reason is here;

1 thessalonians 4:16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet

Daniel 10:21 However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Mi′cha‧el, the prince of YOU people

Daniel 12:1 “And during that time Mi′cha‧el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people. And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape

Hebews 10:12 But this [man] (Jesus) offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet

And in the book of Revelation, we see that it was Micheal the Arch Angel who fought with Satan and the demons....Gods enemies
12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled



Micheal the Archangel is the prince of the Isrealite nation....Gods people. It was to Gods people that God sent forth his word, and Jesus is called the Word by virtue of being the angel who sits beside Jehovah as his representative. And jesus is the one who was given the kingdom of God and the throne of David in order to rule the nations and destroy the wicked. So there is much scriptural evidence that Jesus and Micheal are one and the same.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

I marked 1 Thessalonians 4:16 for later research. Thank you for helping me.

 

[Pegg]

I marked 1 Thessalonians 4:16 for later research. Thank you for helping me.

No problem. I'll give you a head start.... in scripture, there is only one arch angel. He is the head or chief of all the heavenly hosts...the first and foremost angel who is a one of a kind.

When i say one of a kind, i mean that out of all the myriads of angels, there is only one Arch Angel. There are mulitples of all other angels, cherubs/serephs etc, no matter what their rank and station....but of Micheal, he alone is the Arch Angel. So for Paul to say that Jesus would descend from heaven with the voice of that one arch angel, then it appears that Jesus & Micheal must be one and the same.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

But that verse does not mention Michael by name.

 

[Pegg]

But that verse does not mention Michael by name.

Paul says that Jesus, 'the Lord himself', will descend with an 'archangels voice'...
So Jesus is being linked here with the arch angel.


Paul goes on to say that Jesus descends with 'Gods trumpet'..... that reminds us of what Jesus said in Matthew:
24:31 And he (Jesus) will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound


The scriptures are like a huge puzzle...when you connect the correct pieces, you get the full picture. It may seem like a long shot, or an assumption or speculation... but that is how the bible is written. It is not all spelled out in black and white. The answers have to be searched for and revealed. If we read these verses alone and never think too deeply about them, then we might miss how they all relate.

We know that it is Jesus who will execute judgment on the wicked, he told us he was coming to do that. And if you go to the book of Daniel...which was written long before Jesus was on earth.... Daniel says that it is Michael the Arch Angel who leads the battle of the Great Day of God Almighty.
Daniel 12:12 “And during that time Mi′cha‧el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people



Jigsaw puzzles. I love them.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Oh wow. That is interesting.

 

[Jensen]

Hi Pegg, how do JWs explain these verses? I've been wondering for some time. Doesn't this show that Jesus isn't an angel, unless angel was to mean messenger only, is his case? Could Archangel mean that he has authority over all the angels, not that he is an angel? Would love to hear what you think. Thanks.

1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
Thou art my Son,
This day have I begotten thee?
and again,
I will be to him a Father,
And he shall be to me a Son?

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg, how do JWs explain these verses? I've been wondering for some time. Doesn't this show that Jesus isn't an angel, unless angel was to mean messenger only, is his case? Could Archangel mean that he has authority over all the angels, not that he is an angel? Would love to hear what you think. Thanks.

Hi
We do view Jesus as a spirit being like all the angels are. I think the term 'angel' is applied generally to all the spirits who live in heaven. The word 'angle' simply means 'messenger' and it applies to the spirits when they are in the role of acting as Gods messengers.

Jesus certainly acted as Gods messenger when he was on earth proclaiming the kingdom of God, so it is not wrong to call him an angel. And even Paul does so in that verse where he says "the Lord himself will descend with an Archangels voice and with Gods trumpet"

The issue is really a language issue. In hebrew, the hebrew words can be applied in a variety of ways, ie god = mighty/strong one. Some people are called gods, all the angels are called gods and even satan is called a god....because the word means 'strong/mighty one'
But in english, we only apply that word in one way.... to the one we call God. Its the same with angel. The word is actually 'messenger' which is why some people are called angels in the bible... but in english, we only apply the word to what we think are 'angels'

So Jesus really was an angel/messenger when he came to earth to deliver Gods message.

1 God, having of old time spoken unto the fathers in the prophets by divers portions and in divers manners, 2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time,
Thou art my Son,
This day have I begotten thee?
and again,
I will be to him a Father,
And he shall be to me a Son?

Keep in mind that angels are spirits. Jesus is a spirit and he acted as an angel. So there is no difference between them in regard to their 'nature'...they are all godlike. But Jesus was made 'higher' then all of them in that he was promoted to a position of high authority over all of Gods creations.

Notice how the verse says "he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they" This 'inheritance' is evidence that the position was given to him...he didnt always have such a position in heaven. Jehovah God has always been the ultimate supreme authority and Jesus was fully subject to God just as all the spirits/angels are. But Jesus was given a new position after he returned to heaven....he sat at the 'right hand of God'.... no other angel or spirit in heaven sits at Gods right hand.

There is also the point that Jesus existed before all other spirits. Jesus was the very first spirit created by God and he spent probably billions of years in Gods company alone. He is called the 'only begotten son' because when God decided to create more living spirits, he used his only begotten son as his master worker. Under Gods direction, Jesus brought all other living things to life. So he is unique in that he is the only living spirit who was directly created by the Father. All other things came into existence 'through him and for him' says John.

That is how we understand the difference between Jesus and the rest of the Angels. An that is why Jesus is called the 'Arch Angel'... it means 'Chief Angel'...the first one, the one who leads all others. That is the position he has always had because it was through him that all the other angels came into existence so naturally he has always been the 'chief' angel.

 

[Jensen]

I'm still undecided as to Jesus being Michael, but in your post you said something that I have a question on.

Didn't God also create Adam directly? It says in Genesis 2:7,8 that ....

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.


And this is Adam since it says that he placed him in Eden. And it says that God formed him. That appears very much directly doesn't it?


What is the JW explanation for this?


Thanks

Jensen

Sorry for the large lettering, it seems that is the size of the online bible that I used, and this site wouldn't let me resize it, only what I write. The large lettering is not meant to be confrontational.

 

[Pegg]

I'm still undecided as to Jesus being Michael, but in your post you said something that I have a question on.

Didn't God also create Adam directly? It says in Genesis 2:7,8 that ....

2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.


And this is Adam since it says that he placed him in Eden. And it says that God formed him. That appears very much directly doesn't it?


What is the JW explanation for this?


Thanks

Jensen

Sorry for the large lettering, it seems that is the size of the online bible that I used, and this site wouldn't let me resize it, only what I write. The large lettering is not meant to be confrontational.

Hi Jensen,

The scriptures tell us that Jehovah God is the Creator, the All Mighty so any creative ability that Jesus has, comes directly from Jehovah. Never do the scriptures say that Jesus is the Creator, yet they do tell us that 'all things came into existence through him and for him' so we need to find a balance between God being the Creator, and Jesus being the one who created and if it was God who created Adam directly as genesis says.

The answer is found for us in the book of Proverbs where we are shown the relationship of how Jesus was a creator alongside his father:

Proverbs 8:22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. ...27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men

The above passage shows us that this powerful spirit/angel was with God during the creation of all things and that he worked alongside the Creator as a 'master worker'. But noticed that what i've underlined shows that God was directing the creation...God set the decree of the waters, God set the decree of the foundations, God decreed the circle of the earth... these expressions show that God was the designer or architect and the 'master worker' was likely the one who was following through on Gods orders.

Its in that way all things came into existence through him and for him as John says. So in line with this, we can take the account about Adams creation and apply it here too. God designed the man and made his life possible, but Jesus put him together. The result is the same, God was Adams creator even though Jesus did the work.

You can think of it in this way... a car manufacturing plant has many workers who put a car together, but the car is a creation of the company, Toyota for example. Toyota provide all the things necessary to create the car, the workers follow through on the design and specifications, and the end creation is a car created by Toyota even though Joe Smith was the one who put the car together.

 

[Jensen]

Thanks Peg for your explanation. I understand what you're saying, but not sure that I agree with it as of yet. Will have to think on it more.

Yes, God is the designer, that I agree with, but Genesis 2: 7,8 does actually say the LORD God formed man. For me it seems quite literal. But was still interested in the JW view.

Thanks for your time and reply.

Jensen

 

[ForeverFaithful]

So what for John 1:1?

 

[Pegg]

Thanks Peg for your explanation. I understand what you're saying, but not sure that I agree with it as of yet. Will have to think on it more.

Yes, God is the designer, that I agree with, but Genesis 2: 7,8 does actually say the LORD God formed man. For me it seems quite literal. But was still interested in the JW view.

Thanks for your time and reply.

Jensen

Jensen if you have a look at the preface of your bible, I think you will find it will tell you that in all the instances where they render the word "LORD" all in capitals, its because the hebrew word they are translating is YHWH. That is the personal name of God as im sure you are aware and most translators choose not to translate that name...instead they replace it with LORD in capitals to distinguish it from other lords such as 'the Lord Jesus'

 

[Pegg]

So what for John 1:1?

its a translation issue

Not all translators leave out the definite article because in greek it can go both ways.
But the reason why they choose to insert it is because of the context of the verse itself.

John says that 'in the beginning the Word was WITH God'

You cant be with someone if you are that someone.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm still undecided as to Jesus being Michael, but in your post you said something that I have a question on.
Didn't God also create Adam directly? It says in Genesis 2:7,8 that ....
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And this is Adam since it says that he placed him in Eden. And it says that God formed him. That appears very much directly doesn't it?
What is the JW explanation for this?
Thanks
Jensen
Sorry for the large lettering, it seems that is the size of the online bible that I used, and this site wouldn't let me resize it, only what I write. The large lettering is not meant to be confrontational.

Also please notice Genesis [1v26] where it says 'let us' make man.....
Creator is singular. So, the 'us' would be Creator and ?
Since Jesus according to Revelation [3v14 B] is the beginning of the creation by God, then Jesus is the other part of the 'us' because all things were created 'through' Jesus. -Colossians 1vs15,16

 

[icebuddy]

Also please notice Genesis [1v26] where it says 'let us' make man.....
Creator is singular. So, the 'us' would be Creator and ?
Since Jesus according to Revelation [3v14 B] is the beginning of the creation by God, then Jesus is the other part of the 'us' because all things were created 'through' Jesus. -Colossians 1vs15,16

Im posting here to create a place in "my replies"

I am not a JW and Im writing in our Family Bible to add to what has already been handed down to us through generations. For Example: If a LDS come to my door i am to ask them how their religion got started. (Angel Moroni, golden tablets, another message) My Bible tells me to point them to Gal 1: 1-10 that warns us not to believe Angels comming down from heaven with another message...

Anyways, I hope to be back soon

In love,
Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I'm still undecided as to Jesus being Michael, but in your post you said something that I have a question on.
Didn't God also create Adam directly? It says in Genesis 2:7,8 that ....
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And this is Adam since it says that he placed him in Eden. And it says that God formed him. That appears very much directly doesn't it?
What is the JW explanation for this?
.

Doesn't each person have their own voice ?
Who else besides the Lord has an archangel's voice 1 Thess. 4 v 16
The Lord has his own voice which is the archangel's voice.

Please keep in mind that in Genesis there are two [2] accounts of creation.
* The first account runs from Genesis 1 v 1 to Genesis 2 v 4
* The second account runs from Genesis 2 v 5 to 4 v 26

In the first account it mentions 'create' in connection to man at Gen. 1 v 27
And at Deuteronomy [4 v 32] also mentions the day that God 'created' man on earth [Hebrew: Man 'a.dham']

In the second account [Gen 2 v 7] is more detail that God 'formed' from the already existing created ground [clay] an inanimate creation. Then when Jehovah breathed the 'breath of life' into Adam, then [not before] Adam then became a living soul.

Psalm [104 v 30] connects that when God sends forth his spirit things are created. Job [33 v 4] mentions God's own spirit made, and the Almighty's breath proceeded to bring to life. [breath of life]

So, after inanimate Adam was directly formed from the already created earth,
then Adam came to life [living soul] when God breathed the breath of life into Adam.

 

[icebuddy]

Doesn't each person have their own voice ?
Who else besides the Lord has an archangel's voice 1 Thess. 4 v 16
The Lord has his own voice which is the archangel's voice.

heres how i look at it:

Micheal is one of the chief princes (Dan10:13) where Jesus is unique and one of a kind (uncreated john1:3)

If you read revelation 14:14 you will see that Micheal was with Jesus, not that he is Jesus. rev 19:17 also shows another who does the shouting, perhaps Micheal

Just as John is the voice in the wilderness (Jn 1:23) I believe Micheal is the Loud voice with Jesus as seen above.

Jewish tradition is that there are 7 Archangels and Micheal is one of the Chief Princes (dan 10:13) and we know angels will be with Jesus at this time (2thes 1:7)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

heres how i look at it:
Micheal is one of the chief princes (Dan10:13) where Jesus is unique and one of a kind (uncreated john1:3)
If you read revelation 14:14 you will see that Micheal was with Jesus, not that he is Jesus. rev 19:17 also shows another who does the shouting, perhaps Micheal
Just as John is the voice in the wilderness (Jn 1:23) I believe Micheal is the Loud voice with Jesus as seen above.
Jewish tradition is that there are 7 Archangels and Micheal is one of the Chief Princes (dan 10:13) and we know angels will be with Jesus at this time (2thes 1:7)

Angels [angelic armies]will be with Jesus at the time of Revelation 19 vs 11,14

Lord Jesus has an archangel's voice according to 1st Thess. 4 v 16

Revelation 14 v 14 mentions Son of man [aka Jesus] No angel in that verse.
Verses 15,17,18 keep adding another un-named angels.

There are 12 chapters in the book of Daniel.
Please notice after chapter 10 that at the future time Michael takes action he is no longer one of the great or chief princes, but as verse one says Michael stands up [in taking action] as the 'great prince' [singular].

Jesus IS created according to Revelation 3 v 14; 1 v 5
Jesus was not before the beginning as God was before the beginning.
-Psalm 90 v 2.