• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jehovah witnesses and their approach and Quran

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh. I see. So you do not believe The words of the Qur'an? "...He sent down the Torah and the Gospel"
Or do you believe, but hold another view?
I have read in the Qur'an of people being corrupted, but just wondering, where in the Qur'an does it say the Torah, Writings, and Gospels are corrupted?

You do not believe the writings of Paul either, I am assuming? (2 Timothy 3:16) . . .All Scripture is inspired of God. . . (2 Peter 1:21) . . .For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were moved by holy spirit.
The Quran doesn't explicitly say the writing were corrupted, but talked about them twisting what they were told in the covenant regarding Moses Twelve Successors and Aaron and and his family, which can be meaning or it can be that they explicitly changed it. It takes the stance that the covenant continued in his family. It also explicit that Saul/Talut is a chosen king and messenger of God. It also gives a different account of Ishmael and motive of Ibrahim of moving him to Becca which is all suggestive that it disagrees with what is stated about Ismail as one of the corruption as well it never acknowledges Hajar existing which suggests slavery is made up through out time and God never allowed it once.

It also takes a stance that all Messengers are holy and so we won't see Lot doing what the Bible accuses him of doing with his daughters, and being drunk is not an excuse nor Sulaiman being corrupted.

Also while Bible will emphasize Moses is greater then his successors, Quran shows, the Messengers come in groups known as the family of the reminder/revelation/prophethood of the time, and we don't distinguish in terms of importance or greatness between them, rather, each Ahlulbayt ascend together so God keeps their ranks even hidden from their viewpoint and so for example, we don't know who is higher Yahya and Jesus and they are blessed together and ascend in ascension together.

As for Mohammad (a) and his family (a), they are equal rank, because they are praised to extent of being utmost praised, and utmost praised to the extent of being all praised without the opposite and so if one neglect from any of them, they would be so far behind, and so they are equal rank and blessed together as well and ascend together as well.

The Quran is clear that the family of Aaron is the family of Moses and vice versa and so this was a corrupted concepted where Jews tried to split between the two and went against the covenant of Aaron and his offspring and said God changed it and annulled his covenant with him and his offspring.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Deeje, you can talk theory of what Bible says, which is interpretation you have, and not everyone agrees with your interpretation among Christians, or you can see through reasoning and reality, that there is a life between death and day of judgment. And day of judgment is about proofs, it's that God's miracles and proofs are in full display, there is 8 type of proofs God has offered humanity, and all of them will be proven beyond doubt that day, but the blindness is not about whether God is true or his Messengers true that day, it's that they will be blind to God's beauty and glory, and be in a far away place where they can't even call God with vision of love, and so their prayers will be in error. If there was any love in it God would accept it.

The hell fire and paradise exist in this world, and get augmented once we die, but still are in very low display form, their full reality, where everyone will know hell is an evil place, is on the day of judgment only. Although people of Pharaohs are punished by fire, so are disbelievers to a lesser extent in this world, but the Angels doing it are doing in hidden more subtle form. The full reality of deeds is day of judgment and we will be physically resurrected as well.

The fact is whether you theorize about dead or not, people talk to them all the time. Messengers will all direct to the last guide of the time alive, and so whether Jesus or Moses, in my view, we should connect to whoever we know for sure is a Guide. You don't know Mohammad (s), you know Jesus (s) is an intercessor, so go ahead ask Jesus (a) to guide you spiritually and tell you the truth about Mohammad (s) instead of relying on fallibles.

The Bible has not been part of the lives of every human through out history, but hidden inward guidance and spiritual world, everyone has access to. The bible is a guide to the spiritual nature of the holy spirit which is Moses and Elijah, John and Jesus (peace be upon them all), that everyone has always access to every place, every moment, every time, whether they received gospels or not, the human nature is to believe in the holy guides and their sacred nature and the words of light brought to life by God.

The Quran same, it has not been part of human history, what was the religion before Quran in North America? It had not the Torah or Gospels, but the Guide has access to that, and Mohammad (s) was given like Dul-Qarnain, access to every place and everything, and can warp anywhere just as the successor of Sulaiman (a) can warp a whole throne in a blink of an eye.

While people don't always have access to the current scripture revealed that is not lost or corrupted of the time, they always have access to the spirit from God and spiritual guide of the time. In this sense, most natives for all we know where guided the whole time by God but not through either Quran or Bible.

The Quran reveals the two close companions to us, one is from Satan and left handed, the other is the driver and witness from God and is the righthanded witness, right hand means goodness and left hand means evil path. The guide which I believe today is the 12th successor of Mohammad (s) , is with all souls somehow, driving them as much as he can towards God, while the companion from Iblis tries to blind people and deny his reality and make us blind to him. This is the true nature of munkar (the companion from Iblis)(the denier) and Nakeer (the denied) which was changed to be about two angels at time of death questioning us about our deeds and beliefs, but the Quran the denier and denied reality is as I explained.

Iblis has writer on each soul too, that keeps account of what they do. And God has a book and a witness from ourselves writing everything down. They both analyze our deeds different, and so we are caught between two judgments and two paths and there is two different visions we have about our intentions, states, and deeds. One from Iblis/Satan and his minions, and one from God and his Guide. We have to believe in the latter and disbelieve in the former.

This is the battle between soothsayers and Satanic forces, and God's anointed kings and their followers.
 
Last edited:

1213

Well-Known Member
It's not that I am asking to abandon the Bible in that way, I believe most of the Bible is intact and only some of it corrupted....

I would like to hear one example of what do you think is corrupted in the Bible, and how do you know that?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would like to hear one example of what do you think is corrupted in the Bible, and how do you know that?

I already provided some here in this thread. See earlier posts. But an example is Aaron and his offspring being given a covenant that God takes back and cancels.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
The Quran doesn't explicitly say the writing were corrupted, but talked about them twisting what they were told in the covenant regarding Moses Twelve Successors and Aaron and and his family, which can be meaning or it can be that they explicitly changed it.
Ah. So the Quran does not say it. Muslims determine that.
In other words. people have decided that the Bible is corrupt.
Is that not the same as people deciding that the Bible is myth?
What's the difference, if you think there is?

Also, did you say, the Quran talks about "them twisting what they were told in the covenant regarding Moses".
Them, meaning people?
Is that not in line with what I said, and the scriptures I quoted?
It was the people that were corrupted. The ones who were supposed to keep the covenant - especially the leaders, and teachers - Not the Bible, Not God's word. Not what God gave them.
Hence why Jesus rejected them.
Are you not confusing people and writings?

The writers of the Tanakh all condemned those corrupt people, and spoke about them... from Mose to Malachi, all the prophets spoke of those corrupt people.
They stated clearly how they deviated from God's word, and did not keep it.

When the Book of the Law was found the good kings and the prophets expounded it.
The prophets God raised up, had God's law transmitted, and copied.

It's therefore, the case that like scholars today, and Atheists, some Muslims - apparently, that includes you - take a position on the Bible or writings, including the Tanakh, which none of the prophets, nor Jesus, nor the Gospel writers took.
Is that not true? Or can you name one person from Moses down to the apostles, who takes, or took the position you and fellow Muslims take.

Why take the Muslims position? Who authorized them? What proof do you have? Why would they not be the corrupt ones, that do not want to follow God's regulations?

It takes the stance that the covenant continued in his family. It also explicit that Saul/Talut is a chosen king and messenger of God. It also gives a different account of Ishmael and motive of Ibrahim of moving him to Becca which is all suggestive that it disagrees with what is stated about Ismail as one of the corruption as well it never acknowledges Hajar existing which suggests slavery is made up through out time and God never allowed it once.

It also takes a stance that all Messengers are holy and so we won't see Lot doing what the Bible accuses him of doing with his daughters, and being drunk is not an excuse nor Sulaiman being corrupted.
This sounds no different to Biblical critics and Atheists, Link... and do we not say, they speak of what they do not understand, and without understanding?
Do not people dismiss things they do not agree with... Isn't that what you are doing?

Because someone is a servant of God, that does not mean they would not have flawed thinking, or do something foolish.
Is that not what we see throughout the Bible.
Did Aaron not do foolishness on numerous occasions, and lived, only because of God's mercy?
Who is Lot, that he cannot act foolishly? His faith was not that of Abraham.

When we reason that the Bible cannot be God's word, or that it is myth, or that it is corrupt, because we think this man would not do this, if... or God would not allow... is that not a case of being driven by our emotion.
If it's not emotion, what is it? What basis is there for saying that Lot was too perfect to act foolishly, or be influenced by a culture?
There is none apparently. Even Jesus' apostles were influenced by culture. The Jews were misled by their association with false worshipers to burn up their children in the fire - God's own people.
Lot is not so special.

As for God choosing Saul. The Bible says, Saul was humble before he let pride dominate him.
So were others God chose.
God's own created angle in heaven developed pride.
One Jesus chose - Judas - turned betrayer - betraying Christ himself.
Surely you are not going to say that part of scripture is corrupt, because you don't think God would allow that?
Such emotionally driven conclusions are not reasonable, would you agree?

Also while Bible will emphasize Moses is greater then his successors, Quran shows, the Messengers come in groups known as the family of the reminder/revelation/prophethood of the time, and we don't distinguish in terms of importance or greatness between them, rather, each Ahlulbayt ascend together so God keeps their ranks even hidden from their viewpoint and so for example, we don't know who is higher Yahya and Jesus and they are blessed together and ascend in ascension together.

As for Mohammad (a) and his family (a), they are equal rank, because they are praised to extent of being utmost praised, and utmost praised to the extent of being all praised without the opposite and so if one neglect from any of them, they would be so far behind, and so they are equal rank and blessed together as well and ascend together as well.

The Quran is clear that the family of Aaron is the family of Moses and vice versa and so this was a corrupted concepted where Jews tried to split between the two and went against the covenant of Aaron and his offspring and said God changed it and annulled his covenant with him and his offspring.
Evidently, the Quran, and yourself, are against the Bible. Is that a fair conclusion?
Perhaps you can enlighten me to be more accurate.

Due to not having the time, I will get into the Aaron discussion later.
 
Last edited:

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is the difference, the way I understand Torah, Tanakh and Gospels have an essential contradiction in it. Lot to me is as righteous as Abraham, his faith level is same, since he is of his Ahlulbayt. They emphasize on God's chosen, yet sometimes God's chosen get corrupted. Islam is clear, chosen are chosen for a reason, and even if they slip, God knows they will quickly return due to the love he knows they have about him. This while you guys say David remained true and beloved by God but his chosen son who did miracles Solomon got corrupted. It's inconsistent with the thesis that emphasized on Seth and Enoch being righteous and images of God like Adam, and it goes against the philosophy in Torah about Seth set by God.

And Aaron and Mariam (first one) - what the Bible says about them, to me is intolerable, and Quran corrects all this for a reason.

This an essential contradiction in the Bible, and it leads to believe miracles aren't proofs but can be acts of sorcery of evil servants. And God's chosen are not really chosen, and can be a game played by Devils who pose as Angels and use them to misguide humanity.

It's essential that God's chosen are his best, most best of his creation, and don't deviate in that way. Aaron is above all you guys state about him and as far as we know, is Moses's equal.

If you were consistent, you would say Jesus even though is the first and best creation according to you, can come and become evil and corrupted for all you know. But you will never say this and are cherry picking God's chosen as chosen where needed and ignoring it where Bible is corrupted in that regard but corrected in Quran.

And if you want another book that corrects all this ,it's the gospels. They show how all chosen ones and stars of the chosen families of the past, be it Adam's or Abraham's like Joseph being a star of guidance, are instances of the holy spirit. This is why really everything Jesus was emphasizing about himself was to redeem all his predecessors of all the corruption said about them including Aaron and also make way for Mohammad (s) and his family (a).
 
Last edited:

nPeace

Veteran Member
This is the difference, the way I understand Torah, Tanakh and Gospels have an essential contradiction in it. Lot to me is as righteous as Abraham, his faith level is same, since he is of his Ahlulbayt. They emphasize on God's chosen, yet sometimes God's chosen get corrupted. Islam is clear, chosen are chosen for a reason, and even if they slip, God knows they will quickly return due to the love he knows they have about him. This while you guys say David remained true and beloved by God but his chosen son who did miracles Solomon got corrupted. It's inconsistent with the thesis that emphasized on Seth and Enoch being righteous and images of God like Adam, and it goes against the philosophy in Torah about Seth set by God.

And Aaron and Mariam (first one) - what the Bible says about them, to me is intolerable, and Quran corrects all this for a reason.

This an essential contradiction in the Bible, and it leads to believe miracles aren't proofs but can be acts of sorcery of evil servants. And God's chosen are not really chosen, and can be a game played by Devils who pose as Angels and use them to misguide humanity.

It's essential that God's chosen are his best, most best of his creation, and don't deviate in that way. Aaron is above all you guys state about him and as far as we know, is Moses's equal.

If you were consistent, you would say Jesus even though is the first and best creation according to you, can come and become evil and corrupted for all you know. But you will never say this and are cherry picking God's chosen as chosen where needed and ignoring it where Bible is corrupted in that regard but corrected in Quran.

And if you want another book that corrects all this ,it's the gospels. They show how all chosen ones and stars of the chosen families of the past, be it Adam's or Abraham's like Joseph being a star of guidance, are instances of the holy spirit. This is why really everything Jesus was emphasizing about himself was to redeem all his predecessors of all the corruption said about them including Aaron and also make way for Mohammad (s) and his family (a).
For those who claim Jesus was just another prophet, they would not understand why the Christian knows from the scriptures that Jesus would not sin.
So to such persons, they miss out on a vital fact - Jesus is God's son, and spent eons with the father, loyal to him, and one with him, in love, justice, and purpose.
So Jesus' relationship with God is far greater than that of any man.

Muslims discard that fact, and therefore would not know this.
So the Qur'an is indeed against the Bible, and contradicts it. You do too.
So we understand each other.

What proof do you have that Muhammad was from God.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All Prophets and chosen were with God eons before creation. You want to make it all about one human being, but really, all God's chosen are images of God and means to God and path to God.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What proof do you have that Muhammad was from God.

For one, it's the only logically consistent book about God's chosen Prophets and Messengers, obviously, the Bible has failed in that regard.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
All Prophets and chosen were with God eons before creation. You want to make it all about one human being, but really, all God's chosen are images of God and means to God and path to God.
Me? I go by the Bible. I don't make up what I want. I don't want to make anything. I want to follow God's way. Not mine.
Where in the Bible did you read that "All Prophets and chosen were with God eons before creation"?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
For one, it's the only logically consistent book about God's chosen Prophets and Messengers, obviously, the Bible has failed in that regard.
Some agree with you. Some disagree with you. You choose to believe that, but are you saying the only basis for your believing that is your logic? So no proof then.
I mentioned that fact in my first post in the thread.
@Link Sorry, I got mixed up with this thread and the other, on the Qur'an.
 
Last edited:

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Me? I go by the Bible. I don't make up what I want. I don't want to make anything. I want to follow God's way. Not mine.
Where in the Bible did you read that "All Prophets and chosen were with God eons before creation"?

We read the Bible differently. I see some place it states before their physical creation, God trusted them and chose them, this was the whole point about God's spirit on the waters and the covenant with the exalted ones. There are verses that suggest this as they were named by God on birth and their names had to do with them being chosen. Samuel for example means name of God and this is the station of the holy spirit (name of God = holy spirit position). Seth was named set by God and hence is trusted. This is a theme in Bible.

Yet, yes, in contradiction to all that, you have them chosen like Aaron meaning exalted, and then he is disgraced. You have Mariam the first one giving mana and feeding children of Israel when they had no other means of food and she becomes evil.

It's inconsistent with it's own emphasis. Sometimes it emphasizes on sons of God and images and chosen ones, other times it defiles them. What I see is an original message that honored them, but was corrupted. This is an easy unbias decision to make.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Some agree with you. Some disagree with you. You choose to believe that, but are you saying the only basis for your believing that is your logic? So no proof then.
I mentioned that fact in my first post in the thread.

The Quran is a miracle in itself. But you got to research into that, I've made a thread, I've yet to put a lot of evidence in there, just scratching the surface so far.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Logic also precedes revelation. Revelation perfects reasoning and logic in humans, but they should never give that up for text. It's for this reason Muslims believe Quran commands slavery and allowed in times of Mohammad (s), when it did no such thing. Mistranslations and misinterpretations to Quran happen, because people, don't reason and let go of their human nature when they interpret per their scholars wishes.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
We read the Bible differently. I see some place it states before their physical creation, God trusted them and chose them, this was the whole point about God's spirit on the waters and the covenant with the exalted ones. There are verses that suggest this as they were named by God on birth and their names had to do with them being chosen. Samuel for example means name of God and this is the station of the holy spirit (name of God = holy spirit position). Seth was named set by God and hence is trusted. This is a theme in Bible.
There are different ways to read the Bible? How is that... other than upside down and sideways? What other ways are they? Do you mean reading what we want into the text, rather than let the scriptures guide us, or explain things.

I read it in the latter way. What way do you read it in?

Yet, yes, in contradiction to all that, you have them chosen like Aaron meaning exalted, and then he is disgraced. You have Mariam the first one giving mana and feeding children of Israel when they had no other means of food and she becomes evil.
I'm not sure what you are referring to.
You must remember that if you read the Bible differently, you may see things I have no idea of where you got them from. So could you be specific, and give me the verses you question and the ones on the Aaron issue?

It's inconsistent with it's own emphasis. Sometimes it emphasizes on sons of God and images and chosen ones, other times it defiles them. What I see is an original message that honored them, but was corrupted. This is an easy unbias decision to make.
Could it be you "read" such things, not because they are actually written, but because of how you are reading the text?
Perhaps quote or reference the text, because most everything you refer to, I don't know of what you speak.
I even wonder if you might be getting mixed up with things you hear, or read in other books.
 
Last edited:

nPeace

Veteran Member
The Quran is a miracle in itself. But you got to research into that, I've made a thread, I've yet to put a lot of evidence in there, just scratching the surface so far.
So you would not mind answering some questions in this post, and the thread itself. I don't recall if you posted in that thread.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you would not mind answering some questions in this post, and the thread itself. I don't recall if you posted in that thread.

As for your post, according to Quran and ahadiths - the Prophet did perform miracles continuously through out his Prophethood by God's permission. He too like Moses was accused of being a sorcerer per Quran for the truth of his signs/miracles.
 
Last edited:

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you can answer this, why would God have only Jesus to be with him before the physical form of the universe? Why wouldn't he train more then just him? Why only one pre-chosen person?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I already provided some here in this thread. See earlier posts. But an example is Aaron and his offspring being given a covenant that God takes back and cancels.

Ok, thanks, that is interesting, because I don’t think there is anything in Bible that says so. But, Bible tells that people broke the covenant and God prepared a new one. Sorry that this has quite long quotes, but I think it is important to everyone to know that Bible tells about the covenants:

"'But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant; I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away; and you will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
Leviticus 26:14-16

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them; for I am Yahweh their God; but I will for their sake remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God. I am Yahweh.'"
Leviticus 26:44-45

For finding fault with them, he said, "Behold, the days come," says the Lord, "That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they didn't continue in my covenant, And I disregarded them," says the Lord. "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days," says the Lord; "I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be to them a God, And they will be to me a people. They will not teach every man his fellow citizen, Every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' For all will know me, From the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness. I will remember their sins and lawless deeds no more."
Hebrews 8:8-12 (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

So, God has not broken any covenant, He has kept the promises He has given.
 
Top