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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by John1.12, Jun 8, 2021.

  1. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Ah - in that case, your "gospel" is quite negative. It suggests that God is evil.


    I'm sure I could up with a long list, but the two that popped out at me:

    - "no rituals" and "no practices" doesn't seem to be reconcilable with Mark 16:25-26 (though I dunno - maybe you reject the tacked-on long ending of Mark).

    - "no asceticism" sure sounds like you're rejecting Luke 6:24-25.
     
  2. JoshuaTree

    JoshuaTree Flowers are red?

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    Guessing forever and ever is a long time?

    Revelation 14:9-11
    New International Version

    9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
     
  3. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    @9-10ths_Penguin :

    25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?

    Whoever wants to save their life (to the kingdom of God) will lose their life of chasing things of the material here; they will willingly instead walk after; the things of God; and they will find life in Christ Jesus; -

    What good come from chasing after the world; all it has it the lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life; would one lose their own (mind(heart)/will/emotion) soul to chase after these things?

    What can anyone desire in this world that they would give their whole soul away for something; that is in this world?

    That is what I believe Jesus Christ is saying here in this passage.

    I could be wrong though, that is a interesting passage you choose.
     
  4. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    That wasn't the passage I mentioned. Here it is:

    24 “But woe[ca] to you who are rich, for you have received[cb] your comfort[cc] already.
    25 “Woe to you who are well satisfied with food[cd] now, for you will be hungry.
    “Woe to you[ce] who laugh[cf] now, for you will mourn and weep.


    But I may have misunderstood you, because it sounds like you found another passage that promotes the idea of asceticism.
     
  5. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Potentially you mean, if you turned to Him?

    From the grip of harmful ways of living and/or wrongful actions (so, of course, one has to be able to admit they might have anything they've done that is less than good...)

    As I think of it, from the ordinary wrongs we all have done of sometimes not treating someone as we'd want others to treat us (if we were in their shoes).

    At any moment for any person in life we've encountered.

    Commonplace examples most have done:

    Being rude (or rude in return towards) towards someone in traffic

    Ignoring someone

    Returning an insult with an insult

    and so on.

    See, the first step to recovery of a truly good life is to be able to admit ways you've not lived up to the truly good at times.

    That's a kind a maturing or honesty we are brought to, a step in the right direction.

    Christ came to break the grip of our commonplace evils on us, to free us.
     
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  6. Moonjuice

    Moonjuice In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey

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    There is nothing in the scriptures? Are we talking about the same bible?
    Mathew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"
    2 Thessalonians 1:9 "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might"
    Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
    John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
    2 Thessalonians 1: 8-9 "In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

    There are dozens of scriptures referencing eternal punishment.
     
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  7. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Actually that idea is just a theory (though it used to be popular in some churches), one of seven main theories of atonement, and not the one I'd expect myself to best fit all the texts. I'd instead offer the one that fits best the most key chapter about it, Romans chapter 6.

    That Christ came to break the grip of evil on us, to free us, for any that would believe in Him.

    He came to set us free.

    To free us from the invisible but very real prison of the accumulation of our wrongdoing in life (such as returning an insult towards someone that insulted us, etc.).
     
  8. Ashoka

    Ashoka At Your Seva

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    Matthew 25:46- "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

    Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Revelation 21:8 - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    2 Thessalonians 1:9 - They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

    Matthew 13:50 - and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Jude 1:7 - In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
     
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  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Seriously?

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    I think maybe you could take interest. Some people aren't comfortable throwing their religious views if one isn't interested.

    It's one sided. I think people would be more interested in what you and others want to express about their religion if you actually engage with theirs.

    That's respectful in discussions of religion among other topics.
     
    #69 Unveiled Artist, Jun 8, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
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  10. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    If it was an eternity on earth, with sin , death , disease and such ,yes this would be terrifying.
     
  11. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    I was going by what you said . Of course you choose to do those things. Everyone in all religions are choosing to do what they do . Is it fair that you have to do the doing in order to attain ? ' There's no such thing as a free lunch ' idea ?
     
  12. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    Many trust their experiences.
     
  13. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    I reject your long ending of Mark . 25-26 ? It ends verse 20 .
     
  14. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    Do you have anything thats not referring to Israel / Jews? Luke 6 is to Israel ,before the cross. Mark 16 ending in verse 20 is the diciples specifically preaching to Jews , to Israel again .
     
  15. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Fair enough, though there are plenty of other passages about baptism and other rituals.
     
  16. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    At this point, I have no idea what criteria you're using or how you think it makes sense, so let's just say "no."
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    ... and I find the 'gospel' Paul preached was the same ' good news ' that Jesus preached at Luke 4:43.
    The theme of Jesus' teaching was about the 'good news of God's Kingdom' ( thy kingdom come......) - Daniel 2:44
    That God's Kingdom government is the global or international solution to mankind's problems.
    This is because Jesus is the King of God's Kingdom for a thousand years - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, after Mark 16:8 I find those tacked-on verses are spurious verses.
    The style of writing changes after verse 8.
    There are No corresponding reference verses as there is before verse 8.
    Jerome and Eusebius both believed Mark 16 ended at verse 8.
     
  19. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

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    What is the context of all of these chapters? It is easy to quote but harder to explain, I believe. Especially if one doesn't know the context.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Mark 16 actually ends at verse 8. After verse 8 it is added-on spurious verses.
    Jesus said at Matthew 24:13 the one who endures to the end is saved, so Mark 16:16 is wrong.
    So, a saved person can fall away - 1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 10:12.
    Mark 16:15 is also wrong because at Matthew 24:14 Jesus said the gospel would be as a witness to the nations.
    Jesus does Not say to every creature. Remember: new people are born each day, it is as a witness to earth's nations.
    The 'tongues' of Acts chapter 2 is speaking about ' mother tongues ' or ' native languages '. Nothing Not understood.
    So, the new ' tongues' of Mark 16:17 is wrong about 'new tongues' but about people being able to communicate with each other without the need of a translator at that time frame.
    No 1st-century Christians handled snakes as in Mark 16:18 but instructed to declare God's Kingdom - Matthew 24:14
    Also, I find Mark 16:19 is wrong because resurrected Jesus did Not ascend to heaven on that day.
    For that matter, later that day Jesus gathered with his followers that evening in a locked room - John 20:19
    So, Mark ends at Mark 16:8.
     
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