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Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by John1.12, Jun 8, 2021.

  1. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Sure if one buys into the archaic idea that to get into the afterlife you cannot break these certain "God rules" and you are full of some magic "sin force" that a demigod sacrifice can cleanse you of?
    Even weirder is for the majority of the OT there was no heaven for members of the religion. Then just at the time they are invaded by Persian and Greeks the religion adapts a Hellenized concept of the afterlife?
    Souls that belong in heaven was a Greek religious philosophy. It's known and accepted in scholarship that the Israelites borrowed it from them.
    Jewish religious leaders were against it at first because it isn't in their scripture.



    "During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[48] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[48] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[49][50] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[50] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[50] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[50] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[48] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC). Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead."
     
  2. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Acts has been demonstrated to be non-historical. Biblical historian Richard Purvoe has shown it's mostly fiction.

    The Mystery of Acts: Unraveling Its Story

    This is Pervo's amazing, clear, and unsullied conclusion to his long and magnificent scholarship on Acts. Pervo's conclusion is stunning because it is won by impeccable scholarship and thorough consideration of the traditional views of Luke as historian. It changes the picture of Christian beginnings, and should change the minds of New Testament scholars. --Burton Mack, Professor of Religion and Early Christianity, emeritus Claremont Graduate University

    Pervo writes with verve and has a commanding knowledge of the literature on Acts, and his assessment of the theological intent of Acts is informative. --The Bible Today

    "This is the most important book I have read in five years. Bravo Pervo! Summarizing the discoveries made during the writing of his magisterial commentary on Acts, this little book makes it wonderfully clear that there is little if anything of historical value in the book of Acts, apart from what it can tell us about the community that wrote it. In one fell swoop, the only basis of support for the traditional model of Christian origins has been eliminated. It is now possible to entertain seriously other models of Christian origins, including the theory that Christianity did not begin at any particular place in space or moment in time, but rather began like the ancient religions of Egypt, India, Greece, and Rome. The fact that as soon as the curtain goes up on the stage of Christian history there is evidence of division and "heresies" such as Docetism--inexplicable on the basis of traditional notions of an historical "Jesus of Nazareth"--now becomes understandable if "Christianity" developed (and continues to develop) as the intertwining of threads of religious tradition into braids of tradition that change as time goes on. The origins of some threads disappear into the mists of prehistory, others enter the braid at known points in time and space. Some threads leave the braid, the braid fragments into various "Christianities," and the color of the various threads may change as a function of time and place."

    Altogether, this little book is a biblical block-buster. Expect more wonderful work from Pervo!
     
  3. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Cool, put some evidence forward then. All you have done is say "I believe this book because I believe it...". Which is your right. Not everyone desires to believe ancient stories without evidence.

    Your assertion that people who know the Bible is not a literal historical story just take the "easy" path is uninformed.
    I have been studying the biblical historicity field for 10 years as well as archeological evidence and even apologetics, comparative religious studies and debates between historians, apologetics and others.

    The evidence for the Bible is no stronger than the evidence for Islam, Hinduism or most other religions. Your reasons for believing are exactly the same. It's just another religious myth where moral ideas are framed into stories about Gods and supernatural happenings.
    You expect to change minds? Give evidence.
     
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  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I'm still healing and recovering from the extensive damage that toxin did to me.
    I'll pass on taking that poison again.
     
  5. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    And yet here we are still talking about these super natural events that ' never happened ' .
     
  6. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    Yes many people selling books . Its lucrative .
     
  7. viole

    viole Ontological Naturalist
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    Of course. I also debate with my Muslim friend who believes Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse.
    Does my obvious disbelief increase the chance of that cab ride to heaven?

    ciao

    - viole
     
  8. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Words from Christ teach us the 'dead are sleeping' -> John 11:11-14.
    Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures that also teach sleep in death -Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5

    Afterlife means being more alive after death than before death.
    The living dead would Not need a resurrection, but the sleeping dead need a resurrection.- Rev. 1:18
    Or, as Acts of the Apostles 24:15 teaches that there ' is going to be ' (future) a resurrection.......

    The 'spirits' are Not people according to ' 2 Peter 2:4 '(but angels, the disobedient angels of Noah's day )
    They are the spirits of Jude 1:6.

    It was people (Not angels) who 'perished' ( meaning were destroyed ) in the Flood.
     
  9. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Knowing totally all that is right now, present tense, of course is 'omniscience', as is also knowing all that has occurred past tense too. These omniscience don't necessarily entail knowing all future events of every last kind, even though they do imply it seems at the minimum knowing at least many future events (though not necessarily all). Additionally God being able to do all things means of course that God can intervene to alter the course of events and cause a particular outcome He chooses, at will.
     
  10. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Then there is no objection to my scenario. Since before I kill anyone, I have to form a thought in my mind to kill. Thus God will always know beforehand that I am about to kill because he will know those thoughts and intents. So he can therefore prevent me from carrying out the killing ( like giving me a migraine). It also refutes your contention that God has to kill everyone and figure out after the resurrection who was guilty and who was innocent.
     
  11. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    God doesn't prevent us from doing evil. He allows us to do wrongs, and to possibly learn from them....

    He does in a key way undo all evils done against those that He is redeeming though, after the fact, later, in the life to come. We won't have any scars of any kind, including mental or such. No trace of old hurts will remain. He will at times when it seems crucial perhaps for a soul intervene, but He is careful to leave no trace that a hostile skeptic could use to find out He exists.
     
  12. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    You told me he destroyed entire cities before. Now you are saying something entirely different.
     
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  13. John1.12

    John1.12 Free gift

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    The Muslim Religion is not dependant on the winged horse incident. Some believe it ,some don't. Whats your point again ?
     
  14. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    So, when Christ came (to bring about profound inner change of heart for those that believe in Him), it changed the basic situation in the world. God no longer does the visible miracles that even unbelievers might see and thereby change their belief, and now anyone that wants to approach Him must come through faith alone (a leap of faith) -- to believe in the one Who taught "Love one another" (and more) to us -- and meet key requirements like being humble (unassuming/ non-arrogant).

    Speculatively, it might be that a nation or city that became as profoundly evil as some had 3,500 or more years back might still get destroyed, perhaps. But also, that level of evil no longer seems likely, in part because of the profound changes in the world over the millennia.
     
    #334 halbhh, Jun 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
  15. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    Sorry not to read fully (I usually do, tho this was quite a long post), but The World Is Full of Competing Theories About the Scriptures, not just a few, but dozens.

    And of course, naturally, many are quite clever seeming in and of themselves, even if they cannot generally (most all) be correct, being diverse competing ideas that are unalike and have different takes.

    Hearing yet another theory stopped being of interest suddenly at a moment in time.

    Why?

    Here's why --> because I began testing the propositions in Mark.

    Which is far more interesting and rewarding, I found.
     
  16. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    I've done this maybe just once or twice ever in thousands of posts, but I think it's worth responding to your individual sentences/points. So, I'll make more effort to respond in a complete way to your post. :)


    Definitely.

    Clearly so, yes. :) And as you probably know, taught the disciples from the scriptures (old testament, tanakh)

    We completely agree on this. :)

    (Also, we can additionally begin to have Life and have it abundantly here and now, too. So, both of these, both here and now, and then more fully after this life.)

    Agree, if I get precisely how you mean it. Some will be alive in mortal bodies when Christ returns. Others (many) will be awakened from 'sleep'.

    Let's look closely at the text, being sure to get the feeling of it from context of surrounding verses:

    "... 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

    4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; ...
    (recommend reading the full chapter also...)
    2 Peter 2 NIV

    Next, Jude chapter 1 --

    ... 4 For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord c at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire...."
    Jude 1 NIV

    Now, as we already know from reading through Revelation (if you have), Satan and his angels were bound in the "pit" (just as we read here in these 2 passages), until a moment when the next thing will happen...

    That doesn't cancel 1rst Peter chapter 3:18 through chapter 4:6... of course.

    Let's look closely at this passage, beginning a few verses before to be sure to get context:

    ... 15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. 17For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

    18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. e It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

    1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. 2 As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God. 3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 4 They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. 5 But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

    And here, it's completely clear and there is no other way to interpret that fits, that the beings to whom Christ brought the proclamation of the gospel in verse 3:19 are verse 20 tells us clearly the human souls that were removed from mortal life in the Flood, and "the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." as we read in chapter 4.

    It's all very clear.

    And it fits perfectly that God doesn't give special chances to only some, but not others, in a way that would not be fair:

    As scripture confirms:

    Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

    God doesn't unfairly condemn all that perished in the Flood, without a chance at salvation for those willing to turn in true real faith and repentance to Christ.

    Instead, He is Just and Fair, and Merciful, as scripture abundantly repeats to us.
     
    #336 halbhh, Jun 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
  17. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    Young children, babies and women in any civilization in the past could not have been 100% evil for obvious reasons. Therefore, there can be no moral justification that I can see of wiping out entire cities and civilizations. A God who chooses to intervene is morally obliged to do so to prevent evil actions and not try to cure the harmful effects retroactively. That is what we would expect from our police also would we not? To prevent a robbery if they know if it rather than catching the robbers after the fact.
    Secondly you have failed to respond to the following points:-
    1) Choosing to not be with someone, even if he is God is not an evil act as it causes no harm to anyone. Killing souls for that reason is therefore entirely immoral. It shows a conception of a tribal God where loyalty to tribe leader is considered of paramount importance. It's a moral idea we have long outgrown.
    2) All human crimes are finite in nature. Therefore infinite irreversible punishments violate ethics. This is true for all souls God chooses to kill permanently.
     
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  18. halbhh

    halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things".

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    I stopped reading when you used an obvious strawman.

    God kills innocents and doesn't bring them back to life -- that's a strawman.

    Why even bother? No one is fooled.
     
    #338 halbhh, Jun 15, 2021
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  19. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    The act of killing an innocent itself is immoral. Bringing them back to life in the second earth or something does not change that. Do you understand this?
    My questions are perfectly reasonable. Whether you read them or not is upto you.
    Who is fooling whom?
     
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  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, God is Not partial (show favoritism ) for all can be acceptable to Him.
    There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
    The only ones destroyed are the 'wicked' according to Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35; Proverbs 2:21-22.
    This is why Matthew 20:28 says Jesus' ransom covers MANY and does Not say all or everyone.

    I find we need to take note of 2 Peter 2:4 because the Greek word there is Not the word for hell /grave.
    It is the word ' Tar'ta.rus ' ( like a holding 'pit ', so to speak ).
    So, those fallen angels are in bonds of darkness - Jude 1:6
    They will have the same fate as sinner Satan - Revelation 20:2
    Then, Jesus will destroy wicked sinner Satan - Hebrews 2:14; Romans 16:20
    Thus, in Scripture 'fire ' can stand for: forever destruction.
     
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