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"It's either random or determined": A false dichotomy

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Many times on this site, I’ve come across the argument (usually related to free will and/or consciousness) that either everything is determined, or everything is random. Often, each of these options is identified with classical physics (in the case of determinism) or quantum physics (in the case of randomness). Those who hold this position assert that everything we think, feel, believe, etc., is determined because it is governed by the “determinism” of classical physics and, to the extent that quantum physics allows indeterminism into the picture it is irrelevant, because it is just random: “quantum consciousness” can’t entail free will because we are then governed by randomness, not “will”.

This view is wrong. It is not just wrong because it mistakes the nature of both classical dynamics and quantum physics. It is wrong because it mistakes the nature of causality (opting for the simplistic models in vogue thousands of years ago). It is wrong because it misunderstands the nature of randomness. It is wrong because it mistakes our understanding of living systems. Basically, it is wrong.

But simple assertions mean nothing. So I will start by explaining the difference between the nature of “randomness” in quantum mechanics and that which is behind the belief that indeterministic (“random”) processes couldn’t be relevant to free will.

Randomness of the type that is necessarily irrelevant to free will is akin to Brownian motion. Lots of interacting “parts” of some system (like gas molecules or dust particles) bounce of each other. There is no rhyme or reason, no pattern, no organization, nothing other than an enormous set of possible outcomes given particular initial conditions. Also, if we let a system governed by Brownian motion “run” for a while and then observe its state, what we find is “random” in that it is neither predictable nor special: lots of similar possible outcomes could have occurred given slight variations. That’s “random”.

In quantum physics, outcomes are “random” because we cannot, even in principle, know what the outcome will be. That’s because it isn’t determined by any set of complex interactions (as in the case of Brownian motion) that are too numerous for us to deal with in order to predict. The unpredictability is “built in”. And this is what makes it not “random” in the sense we are familiar with. True, randomness always entails something about our limited powers of prediction. Usually, however, this is because of our measurement limitations and/or computational limitations. In quantum physics, outcomes are not random (if they were random, the quantum theories, from QM to the standard model, would be useless). Systems in particular states have a particular set of possible future states, and the reason quantum physics is successful is because we can predict with certain known probabilities what these future states will be. What we can’t know is what “determines” which state we will find. But we do know that we can ensure some set of particular outcomes if we observe systems in particular ways (e.g., we can determine whether we will see electrons or photons as wave-like or particle-like). It is entirely possible that quantum effects in the brain are “unpredictable” because the possible outcomes are determined by the brain itself. In fact, the free will theorem proves that there is a certain degree of free will (in a limited sense) in everything by virtue largely of this “quantum randomness”. The point is that this “randomness” doesn’t mean the kind of random, chaotic set of possible outcomes we associate with randomness, just that we cannot know how outcomes could, even in principle, be determined.

Then there is the problem with the deterministic view of classical physics. Newtonian mechanics is deterministic. It also fails even in classical physics. So does determinism. This is because classical determinism subscribes to a view of causation in which every effect has some necessary and sufficient set of causes which uniquely and solely determine it. In reality, this is bogus. Higher level structures (neural activity, cellular metabolism, social dynamics, swarm behavior, etc.) determine lower level dynamics. Sometimes this simply means that we can create a causal model but that it is arbitrary. This is often true of simple feedback: changes in x result in changes in y, but changes in y result in changes in x, and the only way to determine whether changes in x cause changes in y or vice versa is by arbitrary decision. Then there is the acausal nature of phenomena like motion in general relativity: matter moves because spacetime curves, but spacetime curves because of matter. Both happen simultaneously. Finally (at least as far as my examples go) there is nonlinear or circular causality of the type exhibited with functional emergence. Consider a model of a cell. Perhaps the most important function is metabolism. Most of the time, most of cellular dynamics consists metabolic activity. So metabolism is a function of the activity of most of the cell most of the time. Yet what determines the dynamics of the parts of the cell? Metabolism. It’s circular, and we can’t even arbitrarily choose causes in order to separate out effects vs. causes even arbitrarily.

So this dichotomous causal model is simply wrong no matter how we look at it. It assumes a linear view of time which doesn’t exist in relativistic physics (including quantum physics). It assumes the kind of linear phenomena that for the most part exist only as idealizations and aren’t exhibited by natural systems. It is inconsistent with nonlocality. It assumes the reductive view of Newtonian mechanics which was never shown to hold true in general, contradicts our experience, and now contradicts mainstream physics itself. It explains nothing, but fails to explain the more important phenomena in our experiences and arguably within science (particularly given the importance of the observer in quantum physics): that of consciousness.


Why do so many seem to hold on to an outdated causal model?
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
Many times on this site, I’ve come across the argument (usually related to free will and/or consciousness) that either everything is determined, or everything is random. Often, each of these options is identified with classical physics (in the case of determinism) or quantum physics (in the case of randomness). Those who hold this position assert that everything we think, feel, believe, etc., is determined because it is governed by the “determinism” of classical physics and, to the extent that quantum physics allows indeterminism into the picture it is irrelevant, because it is just random: “quantum consciousness” can’t entail free will because we are then governed by randomness, not “will”.

This view is wrong. It is not just wrong because it mistakes the nature of both classical dynamics and quantum physics. It is wrong because it mistakes the nature of causality (opting for the simplistic models in vogue thousands of years ago). It is wrong because it misunderstands the nature of randomness. It is wrong because it mistakes our understanding of living systems. Basically, it is wrong.

But simple assertions mean nothing. So I will start by explaining the difference between the nature of “randomness” in quantum mechanics and that which is behind the belief that indeterministic (“random”) processes couldn’t be relevant to free will.

Randomness of the type that is necessarily irrelevant to free will is akin to Brownian motion. Lots of interacting “parts” of some system (like gas molecules or dust particles) bounce of each other. There is no rhyme or reason, no pattern, no organization, nothing other than an enormous set of possible outcomes given particular initial conditions. Also, if we let a system governed by Brownian motion “run” for a while and then observe its state, what we find is “random” in that it is neither predictable nor special: lots of similar possible outcomes could have occurred given slight variations. That’s “random”.

In quantum physics, outcomes are “random” because we cannot, even in principle, know what the outcome will be. That’s because it isn’t determined by any set of complex interactions (as in the case of Brownian motion) that are too numerous for us to deal with in order to predict. The unpredictability is “built in”. And this is what makes it not “random” in the sense we are familiar with. True, randomness always entails something about our limited powers of prediction. Usually, however, this is because of our measurement limitations and/or computational limitations. In quantum physics, outcomes are not random (if they were random, the quantum theories, from QM to the standard model, would be useless). Systems in particular states have a particular set of possible future states, and the reason quantum physics is successful is because we can predict with certain known probabilities what these future states will be. What we can’t know is what “determines” which state we will find. But we do know that we can ensure some set of particular outcomes if we observe systems in particular ways (e.g., we can determine whether we will see electrons or photons as wave-like or particle-like). It is entirely possible that quantum effects in the brain are “unpredictable” because the possible outcomes are determined by the brain itself. In fact, the free will theorem proves that there is a certain degree of free will (in a limited sense) in everything by virtue largely of this “quantum randomness”. The point is that this “randomness” doesn’t mean the kind of random, chaotic set of possible outcomes we associate with randomness, just that we cannot know how outcomes could, even in principle, be determined.

Then there is the problem with the deterministic view of classical physics. Newtonian mechanics is deterministic. It also fails even in classical physics. So does determinism. This is because classical determinism subscribes to a view of causation in which every effect has some necessary and sufficient set of causes which uniquely and solely determine it. In reality, this is bogus. Higher level structures (neural activity, cellular metabolism, social dynamics, swarm behavior, etc.) determine lower level dynamics. Sometimes this simply means that we can create a causal model but that it is arbitrary. This is often true of simple feedback: changes in x result in changes in y, but changes in y result in changes in x, and the only way to determine whether changes in x cause changes in y or vice versa is by arbitrary decision. Then there is the acausal nature of phenomena like motion in general relativity: matter moves because spacetime curves, but spacetime curves because of matter. Both happen simultaneously. Finally (at least as far as my examples go) there is nonlinear or circular causality of the type exhibited with functional emergence. Consider a model of a cell. Perhaps the most important function is metabolism. Most of the time, most of cellular dynamics consists metabolic activity. So metabolism is a function of the activity of most of the cell most of the time. Yet what determines the dynamics of the parts of the cell? Metabolism. It’s circular, and we can’t even arbitrarily choose causes in order to separate out effects vs. causes even arbitrarily.

So this dichotomous causal model is simply wrong no matter how we look at it. It assumes a linear view of time which doesn’t exist in relativistic physics (including quantum physics). It assumes the kind of linear phenomena that for the most part exist only as idealizations and aren’t exhibited by natural systems. It is inconsistent with nonlocality. It assumes the reductive view of Newtonian mechanics which was never shown to hold true in general, contradicts our experience, and now contradicts mainstream physics itself. It explains nothing, but fails to explain the more important phenomena in our experiences and arguably within science (particularly given the importance of the observer in quantum physics): that of consciousness.


Why do so many seem to hold on to an outdated causal model?

The Law of Noncontradiction in logic states that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time therefore the universe cannot be both ordered and random.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Law of Noncontradiction in logic states that contradictory statements cannot both be true in the same sense at the same time therefore the universe cannot be both ordered and random.
The LNC only applies to the truth of a WFF and its negation. In atomic form, it asserts that (A & ~ A) cannot be true. Further, it is a syntactic "rule", precisely for reasons like this: the semantic content of "random" is not at all equivalent to that of the negation of "ordered" (and vice versa). The LNC doesn't apply, and to the extent it works with natural languages, asserts merely that something can't be both random and not random. It is for this (and other) reasons that it doesn't hold in all logical systems (e.g., fuzzy logic) and is challenged on philosophical grounds (see e.g., Priest, G., Beall, J. C., & Armour-Garb, B. P. (Eds.) (2004). The Law of Non-contradiction: New Philosophical Essays. Oxford University Press.)
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
The LNC only applies to the truth of a WFF and its negation. In atomic form, it asserts that (A & ~ A) cannot be true. Further, it is a syntactic "rule", precisely for reasons like this: the semantic content of "random" is not at all equivalent to that of the negation of "ordered" (and vice versa). The LNC doesn't apply, and to the extent it works with natural languages, asserts merely that something can't be both random and not random. It is for this (and other) reasons that it doesn't hold in all logical systems (e.g., fuzzy logic) and is challenged on philosophical grounds (see e.g., Priest, G., Beall, J. C., & Armour-Garb, B. P. (2004). The Law of Non-contradiction: New Philosophical Essays. Oxford University Press.)

If this is the case it appears to me that the word ordered and chaotic should not be used to describe these terms in English.

PS: I would prefer if the world used a constructive language like Lojban.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If this is the case it appears to me that the word ordered and chaotic should not be used to describe these terms in English.
Formal languages are "formal" for this very reason: they lack semantic content. Formal logic, in which inference rules, the LNC, excluded middle, etc., hold are there to evaluate the structure of arguments. In short, to determine validity by examining what follows from what without relying on semantics.
Languages aren't logical. Period. Even constructed languages (except those that are entirely reducible to mathematical systems, particularly set theory, and are therefore useless as languages). Lobjan, even in its extremely limited, artificial speech community has yielded novel, unintended structures such as the reflexive pronoun vo'a, the "language" is only unambiguous or logical at the grammatical structure (and this strict division between grammar and lexicon is at best artificial and at worst entirely wrong-headed), and finally predicate logic itself is replete with limitations and paradoxes (hence the axiomatic nature of graduate level set theory, the issues of non-computability and incompleteness proven by Turing and Gödel, respectively, and the prima facie ridiculously, vacuously, but necessarily true statements like "all pink fairies cure cancer" of "if the moon is made of green cheese, then I rule the world"). Unambiguous means uninformative (or void of semantic content).
 

allfoak

Alchemist
All of life is a paradox.
This means that life is both free and determined.
Only those who are able to think paradoxically are able to hold two opposing truths in their mind at once and make sense of them.
If one cannot do this, their world view will always be polarized to one idea or another never really finding any balance or real understanding of anything.

Yes, i said opposing truths.
 

Taylor Seraphim

Angel of Reason
All of life is a paradox.
This means that life is both free and determined.
Only those who are able to think paradoxically are able to hold two opposing truths in their mind at once and make sense of them.
If one cannot do this, their world view will always be polarized to one idea or another never really finding any balance or real understanding of anything.

Yes, i said opposing truths.

So you are trying to balance two opposing truths?
 

Kueid

Avant-garde
All of life is a paradox.
This means that life is both free and determined.
Only those who are able to think paradoxically are able to hold two opposing truths in their mind at once and make sense of them.
If one cannot do this, their world view will always be polarized to one idea or another never really finding any balance or real understanding of anything.

Yes, i said opposing truths.

This!
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This means that life is both free and determined.
"L’homme est né libre et partout il est dans les fers" The question, though, isn't whether we are wholly free (in my view, we clearly are not), but whether everything is wholly determined (in my view and in accord with the sciences, clearly not).
 

Kueid

Avant-garde
"L’homme est né libre et partout il est dans les fers" The question, though, isn't whether we are wholly free (in my view, we clearly are not), but whether everything is wholly determined (in my view and in accord with the sciences, clearly not).

How about everything is wholly determined and indetermined. Makes sense? Cause I think thats what him meant. Did I say it right @allfoak?
 

allfoak

Alchemist
How about everything is wholly determined and indetermined. Makes sense? Cause I think thats what him meant. Did I say it right @allfoak?


When we come upon a paradox this means that there must be some higher truth that exists to bring the opposing truths together.

We are each free to choose within the boundaries determined by the choices we make.
In other words, the choices we made determine the choices we are now presented with.
Lets try this again.

We have an eternal soul that evolves by way of living lifetime after lifetime.
Each life is different than the last, who i am now does not return....ever again.

Our soul chooses each and every life it lives for a purpose.
Each life that our soul lives plays a role in determining what the next life will be like.
We are each born with the strengths and/or limitations created in the previous lives.

This means that both the eastern idea of reincarnation is true and also the christian view that we live once and then it is over is true.
The higher truth that brings them together is the eternal soul of man that evolves over the course of countless lifetimes.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
When we come upon a paradox this means that there must be some higher truth that exists to bring the opposing truths together.
Does it mean that? To me then its not a true paradox. What you are describing in your examples are thesis, antithesis, and synthesis where a new logical truth is come to in order to reconcile different views. But a true paradox would be something that cannot be reconciled logically, such as saying that God both exists and does not exist simultaneously. To say I am a theistic atheist would be a paradox. If there is a way to synthesize a solution, then it's not a paradox but a simple contradiction of opposing views that you can use logic to later reconcile. I do believe however that true paradoxes can be in fact be held comfortably by a person, but that is different than saying they can be held logically.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Does it mean that? To me then its not a true paradox. What you are describing in your examples are thesis, antithesis, and synthesis where a new logical truth is come to in order to reconcile different views. But a true paradox would be something that cannot be reconciled logically, such as saying that God both exists and does not exist simultaneously. To say I am a theistic atheist would be a paradox. If there is a way to synthesize a solution, then it's not a paradox but a simple contradiction of opposing views that you can use logic to later reconcile. I do believe however that true paradoxes can be in fact be held comfortably by a person, but that is different than saying they can be held logically.

What you give as an example of being unsolvable is quite easily solved by adding man and his limitations to the equation.
To some through the polarization of thought, God does not exist.
To others, it is inconceivable that God does not exist.
In the mind of man both truths are valid.
All paradox is solvable.
So the paradox of life is that there is no such thing as paradox.
Yet to most the idea of paradox not only exists but they are also unsolvable and therefore they are called a paradox.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
So this dichotomous causal model is simply wrong no matter how we look at it. It assumes a linear view of time which doesn’t exist in relativistic physics (including quantum physics). It assumes the kind of linear phenomena that for the most part exist only as idealizations and aren’t exhibited by natural systems. It is inconsistent with nonlocality. It assumes the reductive view of Newtonian mechanics which was never shown to hold true in general, contradicts our experience, and now contradicts mainstream physics itself. It explains nothing, but fails to explain the more important phenomena in our experiences and arguably within science (particularly given the importance of the observer in quantum physics): that of consciousness.
Amen. :)

Agree with everything you said. It's fairly recent that I started to understand the problems that you're presenting in your post. Can't say I understand it all still, but at least I understand that these things are a bit complicated.

I have a question for you, what's your thoughts on holism (I think it's called) in physics? Where some scientists (I assume) are starting to give up reductionism for the view that there's a synergy of the parts creating a whole that is more than just the sum of the parts, and that there are, like you're suggesting, feed-backs of different kinds? I recently started to think about how a complex system like ecology not only comes about by the parts of animals/plants/environment interaction, but also that the ecological balance is in itself also part of affecting the parts, i.e. a feedback between the whole and the parts. What's your thoughts on this?

Oh, I have to ask you this too. Consciousness, it's kind'a non-local, isn't it? All the interactions of the cells, processing data, electrochemical stuff going on, producing something that I at the moment can feel like a single "I". This single I can't be traced to a single cell or atom, but is something arising, as a single thing, from all those things. So it's sort-of non-local then?

Why do so many seem to hold on to an outdated causal model?
Probably because it takes some contemplation and time to think about how it works before it clicks. I have years of study (I'm 50), and I still didn't start to really get the problem with these things until recently (it started probably some years ago, but lately I've realized it even more so).
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
All of life is a paradox.
This means that life is both free and determined.
Only those who are able to think paradoxically are able to hold two opposing truths in their mind at once and make sense of them.
If one cannot do this, their world view will always be polarized to one idea or another never really finding any balance or real understanding of anything.

Yes, i said opposing truths.
See my tag? Coincidentia oppositorum, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unity_of_opposites.

Life is a paradox.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Like that first post. It is hard to determine deterministic models, because things touch themselves! There is not a dichotomy but a semantic discrepancy about the types of randomness. Turing's non-computibility. Godel's incompleteness. Context is king, but context has no context.
 

Gambit

Well-Known Member
All of life is a paradox.
This means that life is both free and determined.
Only those who are able to think paradoxically are able to hold two opposing truths in their mind at once and make sense of them.
If one cannot do this, their world view will always be polarized to one idea or another never really finding any balance or real understanding of anything.

Yes, i said opposing truths.

Think paradoxically or dialectically.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have a question for you, what's your thoughts on holism (I think it's called) in physics?
I'm not that big of a fan of the term, which isn't used much in the literature but used a lot in popular literature. Part of the reason is that it makes it rather difficult for me to answer questions like "what do you think about holism?" On the one hand, the term indicates more or less what Smuts (who coined it) intended: the whole is more than the some of its parts. This I think is simply obvious at this point, despite the fact that so many scientific fields (particularly my own) are filled with scientists whose ideology, worldview, and approach to research is that of the hardcore reductionist.
Where some scientists (I assume) are starting to give up reductionism for the view that there's a synergy of the parts creating a whole that is more than just the sum of the parts, and that there are, like you're suggesting, feed-backs of different kinds?
From the lecture: "I think--from what we've learned both from string theory, from the quantum mechanics of gravity, and so forth--that modern theories really do spell the end of reductionism"
Leonard Susskind (founder of string theory, adamantly against any suggestion that physics or cosmology suggests our universe is designed, supports the multiverse interpretation of QM in part because it appears to solve the fine-tuning problem without appeal to something like a "god", etc.).

I recently ordered a popular science book simply because I like one of the co-authors (the eminent physicist Paul Davies) and I found the title curious: The Matter Myth. On p. 14:
"It is fitting that physics--the science that gave rise to materialism--should also signal the demise of materialism.

Insofar as by holism we mean that the cosmos (or nature, or "reality") is non-reductive (i.e., that reductionism fails), then holism is the obvious choice. Likewise, if by holism we mean merely that at least some systems cannot be understood as the sum of the dynamics of their component parts (i.e., we cannot understand at least some systems from purely "bottom-up" causation), again it is clearly the superior to the alternative.

But we have to be careful. It is one thing to say that reductionism is dead or even that materialism is dead, and another thing to say, therefore, that parapsychology, holistic medicine, ESP, or even ESPN are legitimate. Holism in the sciences takes many forms. For example, one of the most ardent promoters of a holistic view of the cosmos among influential, eminent physicists was David Bohm. His term for "holism" was "the implicate order". Yet he is generally understood to have produced an "interpretation" of QM that is deterministic (in reality, what he produced was not an interpretation of QM but a complete physical theory on its own right, and it is "deterministic" in a sense that most who believe the universe to be deterministic would find wholly unacceptable precisely because of how completely non-reductive it is). A hero of mine, the mathematical biologist Alwyn Scott, is likewise a supporter of a certain form of holism. However, he has at least twice that I know of contributed to texts on consciousness with papers derisive of quantum theories of consciousness. Instead, he argues (as many others do, including me), that classical physics isn't as deterministic or reductive as we might have been led to believe. Newtonian mechanics might be, but the emergence of dynamical order in certain nonlinear systems even in classical physics shows that "the whole is not the sum of its parts".
I am not, though, a believer in Lovelock's Gaia hypothesis, in holistic medicine, and in many other notions that are related to or build off of clearly supported scientific theories or findings such as nonlocality, emergence, acausality, etc. I'm not a dualist partly because at this point it isn't even clear to me what being a materialist means given that our best models of physics involve causally efficacious entities nonetheless called "virtual particles", that many prominent physicists believe information, not particles, are the most fundamental component of reality, and the increasing reliance on mathematics to discover aspects of reality without experimentation and to both design and interpret experiments.

I recently started to think about how a complex system like ecology not only comes about by the parts of animals/plants/environment interaction, but also that the ecological balance is in itself also part of affecting the parts, i.e. a feedback between the whole and the parts. What's your thoughts on this?
Absolutely, with one caveat. We often think of ecological systems (and similar systems) as balanced. They are not, and cannot be. Ecological balance means stagnation, decay, death. Complex systems must be somewhat chaotic, "far from thermodynamic equilibrium", and in general always changing in order to exist. That said, there is usually a sort of "range" constrains just how chaotic such systems can be. If the dynamics are upset too much, the behavior of the entire system can radically and permanently change (what used to be called and sometimes still is "catastrophe theory"). But it is absolutely true that ecological systems act holistically, in that the components of the systems (animals, plants, climate, terrain, etc.) determine its evolution whilst their behavior is determined by the system as a whole (e.g., changes in the population of a major predator will result in the increase of prey, which means shifts in the numbers and population types of plants/trees, which means changes in the terrain, which means changes in the populations of predators and prey and possibly even climate, which all means changes in the behavior of animals in the ecosystem, and things quickly become so complicated that there isn't any way to sort out what is causing what other than via a global perspective).
Consciousness, it's kind'a non-local, isn't it?
Yes. It is (IMO), a functionally emergent process. In this sense it is produced by the brain (by something "physical"), but not reducible to it, largely because it is "non-local", but also because it determines the neural behavior that produce it. The nonlocal part has already been investigated in terms of classical physics. For example:
Kanter, I., Kopelowitz, E., Vardi, R., Zigzag, M., Kinzel, W., Abeles, M., & Cohen, D. (2011). Nonlocal mechanism for cluster synchronization in neural circuits. EPL (Europhysics Letters), 93(6), 66001. (see attached)
 

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