It's all in Your Mind...

[Trailblazer]

That better living in this world, is heaven.

Indeed, I believe that heaven exists in this world as well as in the realms beyond.
Baha'is believe that heaven is a state of the soul that is near to God.

The Bahá’í teachings state that there is no such physical place as heaven or hell, and emphasise the eternal journey of the soul towards perfection. They explain that references to “heaven” and “hell” in the Holy Scriptures of other religions are to be understood symbolically, describing states of nearness to and distance from God in this world and in the realms beyond.
Heaven and Hell | What Bahá’ís Believe

 

[exchemist]

Is qualia all in your mind?

I'm not trying to say real vs unreal.

Like I've read that the color pink doesn't physically exist. Yet we do see pink. So seeing pink is a real experience but does the color pink only exist in your mind.

Yes, a nice distinction indeed.

What it amounts to then is that there could be some science suggesting that religious experience is subjective, i.e. unique to the individual, rather than objective, i.e. independently verifiable by many.

I think that is exactly what most scientists with religious belief would think anyway. So there seems to be nothing new there.

 

[Etritonakin]

There's only you in your head right? So I assume it'd be you showing yourself that this other entity in your head is only imaginary. Unless you think I suppose other entities inhabit your mind.

I was being humorous, but.........

We are separate persons because (even though we are all part of the same whole and made of the same thing) there are borders between our minds which are by specific arrangement.

However, our "separate" minds can be affected in many ways which make them not quite as separate as we might like.

Knowledge of how the mind works can enable someone to manipulate others and "get in their head" that way.

It is also not impossible that a mind may be affected more directly.
It's been shown that cell phones, etc, disrupt mental processes -but using signals to affect things more specifically is also possible (mind-reading tech, etc.).

In the bible, Satan is called "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience".
Spirits are said to be able to influence humans (and can lend that ability to those who do sorcery).
Things such as dissociative identity disorder show that one separate mind may be split into different personalities -and being affected by spirits would be similar, though the influence would be from a separate being/mind.

Whatever the case, it's good to rule your own spirit, know yourself well and realize some sort of influence from others is possible -and and be vigilant.

 

[osgart]

Well, sure. However we choose to talk about these things, however we might imagine or envision these things, doesn't change the reality of the experience itself. I suppose the best way to say it is, if it isn't true, it should be, because spiritual experience brings such positive rewards to human life.

Talking about these "transcendent" realities, is at best the language of metaphor and poetry, not the language of reason and logic. But we can talk "about" it with those, but it doesn't convey the actual content of it, only the possible context.

I think the art of spirituality is lost on many. There's the idea that reason, and logic are all that is needed to live a healthy life. That leaves out a whole side of life, and we are not automatons. Cold hard logic and reason with limited context and limited knowledge isn't going to solve the woes of the world.

Some people think of spirituality as a frivolous pursuit. But without a spiritual realm it is still something deeply beneficial. It is a discipline, it is self becoming, self creating, and a means of rising above circumstance and situation.

If meanings can govern a person, and realization can lift ones attitude, and conviction out of the everyday norms. Then there is a place for it. Spirituality shouldn't be an obsession with transcendence, but it is a way to understand total other sides of humanity.

I mean transcendence into a spiritual realm is just one aspect of it. But I don't think that aspect is needed to realize spirituality has something profound in it.

A person can transcend, and rise above circumstances and not believe in a spiritual realm.

 

[blü 2]

Real as in material? Kind of the opposite of spiritual IMO.

I agree.

But no objective test will distinguish the 'spiritual' (or the 'supernatural', or the 'divine', or the 'immaterial') from the purely imaginary / conceptual.

So it seems to me that a "real spiritual realm" is a contradiction in terms.

 

[taykair]

What if science was able to show that the spiritual realm did not exist outside of your head.

Would that matter to you?

If science could disprove the non-material, then it would matter a great deal to me -- but since it cannot, then it doesn't matter at all.

 

[Nakosis]

If science could disprove the non-material, then it would matter a great deal to me -- but since it cannot, then it doesn't matter at all.

Hypothetically, if it could, why would it matter?

 

[PruePhillip]

Sure I can - non-material.



I'd be interested in these reports.

Even here - "non material" is a bit vague.
And the EEG stuff came from Peter Fenwick, clinical psychologist and neuro-scientist.

 

[taykair]

Hypothetically, if it could, why would it matter?

Because I would then be left with only a materialistic outlook. Although materialism is not a bad way of looking at the universe, I don't find it to be a complete one.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it seems to me that a "real spiritual realm" is a contradiction in terms.

Not if it's real.

 

[blü 2]

Not if it's real.

If it's real you can show it to me.

Please do ─ I don't mind (more accurately, don't much mind ) being wrong if I learn something new.

 

[Trailblazer]

If it's real you can show it to me.

Real material things can be shown in the material world but real spiritual things are not visible in the material world.
Real spiritual things won't be visible until we get to the spiritual world.

 

[blü 2]

Real material things can be shown in the material world but real spiritual things are not visible in the material world.
Real spiritual things won't be visible until we get to the spiritual world.

Tomorrow, never today?

And entirely without evidence?

Without even a testable hypothesis?

Without even a coherent concept?

Hmm. I remain of the view that "real spirit" is limited to particular forms of alcohol.

 

[Thief]

I say yay
My hand tells my what my eyes cannot
My ears tell me what my nose cannot,
My heart, lungs and bowels say what the others do not.

Motivation does come from the body as well the mind and

what we feel is the greatest of motivators coming from the mind and body.

nay

what you feel after your hand has played.....is consequence

 

[Thief]

Since I have no idea what a REAL spiritual realm would look like, not a bit.

you dream?

 

[blü 2]

you dream?

In my view, 'real' means having objective existence, not purely imaginary / conceptual ─ therefore existing in the world external to the self, also called nature, and the realm of the physical sciences.

So when I dream, the subjects of my dreams are my own mental constructs, not entities which are real ie have objective existence.

How do you define 'real'? What test do you use to tell if something is real or not?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think it's reasonable to argue that all experiences in the mind are based on brain chemistry, or whatever. But that doesn't negate the possibility of an external cause or catalyst for those changes.

Well nothing negates the "possibility" of ANY unfalsifiable thing you can imagine.
Processes like photosynthesis etc also don't negate the "possibility" of undetectable pixies who make my grass grow.

But they do make them obsolete.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tomorrow, never today?

And entirely without evidence?

Without even a testable hypothesis?

Without even a coherent concept?

Hmm. I remain of the view that "real spirit" is limited to particular forms of alcohol.

I have a coherent concept but I don't have a testable hypothesis.

 

[taykair]

Well nothing negates the "possibility" of ANY unfalsifiable thing you can imagine.

Thank you for that. I completely agree.

Processes like photosynthesis etc also don't negate the "possibility" of undetectable pixies who make my grass grow.

But they do make them obsolete.

​

If you had only added the words "to me" at the end of that last sentence, then I would have agreed with that as well.

 

[blü 2]

I have a coherent concept but I don't have a testable hypothesis.

What will I pour you ─ a single malt? An aged bourbon? A rum, perhaps? A boutique gin?