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It's about time that black smoke does matter.

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Having no idea, what are their complaints?
Tom
The over-regulated environment that we are subject to, directed primarily towards the draconian hours of service regulations, and hideously long shipper wait times for starters.

The link gives you a pretty good picture what the what primary issues are.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Truckers that don't use amphetamines are happy to take the mandated time off to sleep!!
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
The over-regulated environment that we are subject to, directed primarily towards the draconian hours of service regulations, and hideously long shipper wait times for starters.
Wait times I can sympathize with. You should get paid for any time that you're waiting for a customer at their request.

Hours of service, though... I just ran a quick search in FARS (the US federal database of all fatal collisions): in 2017, 194 people died in collisions with large trucks where driver fatigue was identified as a factor. I don't think it's a good idea to increase that number.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Wait times I can sympathize with. You should get paid for any time that you're waiting for a customer at their request.

Hours of service, though... I just ran a quick search in FARS (the US federal database of all fatal collisions): in 2017, 194 people died in collisions with large trucks where driver fatigue was identified as a factor. I don't think it's a good idea to increase that number.
The hours of services already contributed to more fatigued drivers than ever before.

These regulations are not made by people who drive trucks for a living of who have no idea what they're talkin about.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
How do you figure?
Because I'm in the industry that consists of irregular hours and you can't be told when you're tired that you ought to be driving and you can't be told you should pull over when you're not tired.

Try driving under hours of service regulations in your personal car and the issue will speak for itself.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Thousands of truckers in a Facebook group called 'Black Smoke Matters' are planning a one-day nationwide strike this April

As a trucker I will support the proposed trucker strike in April and help state that enough is enough, and any trucker out there should participate because that's one of the few things we can do to make our industry better for the trucker.

To all my fellow truck drivers you deserve better than what we have now.

Best wishes for a successful strike.

Well, of course, I'll support the truckers' strike as well, since all workers deserve fair and good treatment for the work they do. I didn't see anything in the article about the Teamsters union, though. Didn't they resolve a lot of those issues in the past, or have the Teamsters lost influence?

I also wonder whether it's efficient or cost effective. That is, if you're hauling a bunch of stuff from one major city to another major city, wouldn't it be better to have it done by railroad? Then, the truckers would only have to transport stuff from the closest railway station to wherever their final destination is. That way, they wouldn't have to drive very far or for very long. They could go home every night rather than be away for days at a time. A mile-long freight train can carry a heck of a lot more than an 18-wheeler.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How do you figure?
I think there may be a lack of communication. Truckers have long unpaid wait times. They have a legitimate complaint there. If they are waiting they should be paid a wage for that. Due to the ever increasing wait times they would cheat a bit on their logbooks. Now that they are monitored electronically they can't make up for lost time .by driving longer shifts.

If they were paid for wait time the warehouses would find a way to shorten that. The drivers would not have to worry about cheating so much. I don't see how warehouses get away with it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I think there may be a lack of communication. Truckers have long unpaid wait times. They have a legitimate complaint there. If they are waiting they should be paid a wage for that.
I agree completely.

Due to the ever increasing wait times they would cheat a bit on their logbooks. Now that they are monitored electronically they can't make up for lost time .by driving longer shifts.
I get that. I understand the financial reasons for wanting to do that. At the same time, I'm not okay with sharing the road with truckers who have been driving for 10, 12, 14 hours without a break, or have been on duty for 24 hours straight. I don't really care if they say they don't feel tired; in that situation, I trust their judgement about as much as I'd trust a guy who's been drinking that he's okay to drive.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I agree completely.


I get that. I understand the financial reasons for wanting to do that. At the same time, I'm not okay with sharing the road with truckers who have been driving for 10, 12, 14 hours without a break, or have been on duty for 24 hours straight. I don't really care if they say they don't feel tired; in that situation, I trust their judgement about as much as I'd trust a guy who's been drinking that he's okay to drive.
i agree, the electric logs are a must. They keep truckers from pushing too hard. I used to drive too long on road trips in my youth. I was probably only endangering myself. My little car would not have been a threat to anyone else late at night on the rural freeways. Trucks are not going to be just rural. They are also much more massive. I do want them to earn a decent wage, but not at the risk of others.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
i agree, the electric logs are a must. They keep truckers from pushing too hard. I used to drive too long on road trips in my youth. I was probably only endangering myself. My little car would not have been a threat to anyone else late at night on the rural freeways. Trucks are not going to be just rural. They are also much more massive. I do want them to earn a decent wage, but not at the risk of others.
Electronic logs are b*******. They do nothing for safety or anything. Imagine a trucker running out of hours and he's/she's desperately looking for a place to park and running right up on your rear bumper.

You get the picture of some of the problems.

I lean more for letting truckers drive when they feel awake and pull over when they feel tired just like everybody else does. You don't get told the hours you can operate your car or camper trailer or pickup. (Some pulling up to the size of large trucks) And that you must pull over after every 4 hours for another half hour and then cumulatively after 11 hours that you take a 10-hour break. It's assinine.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Electronic logs are b*******. They do nothing for safety or anything. Imagine a trucker running out of hours and he's/she's desperately looking for a place to park and running right up on your rear bumper.

You get the picture of some of the problems.
You're conflating two different issues: electronic logs and hours of service rules. It's the hours of service rules that make the trucker run out of hours. The electronic logs just make it easier to catch when the rules have been broken.

I lean more for letting truckers drive when they feel awake and pull over when they feel tired just like everybody else does. You don't get told the hours you can operate your car or camper trailer or pickup. (Some pulling up to the size of large trucks) And that you must pull over after every 4 hours for another half hour and then cumulatively after 11 hours that you take a 10-hour break. It's assinine.
And I'm allowed to work on the wiring on my own house even though I'm not an electrician. Do you think that this means professional electricians shouldn't need licenses either?

As a society, we've decided that people using their own stuff for non-commercial purposes don't have to meet the same standards as a professional doing similar things as a business. You can have whatever opinion you want about that, but the fact that RV drivers are exempt from hours of service rules is in keeping with this approach.

The risk exposure of an RV is generally way less than a commercial truck. An RV typically gets towed or driven a few times a year. This is very different from a commercial truck that's driven all day, every day.

RV drivers also don't have a financial incentive to drive fatigued the way a truck driver does.

And BTW: when I'm driving my own car, my GPS starts beeping at me to take a break after 2 hours. Lots of people I know follow a similar approach. Don't assume that everyone who doesn't have a logbook is driving 24 hours at a stretch.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
What sounds like the equivalent to the electronic logs were made mandatory by the EU in the late 1970s; there was exactly the same arguments over here as you are now repeating in the US. But they came in and are now seen as a good thing, reducing accidents from tired wagon drivers.
I don't know about the waiting times that seems to be a management issue; but I agree it isn't fair that drivers are sat around with no pay.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
You're conflating two different issues: electronic logs and hours of service rules. It's the hours of service rules that make the trucker run out of hours. The electronic logs just make it easier to catch when the rules have been broken.


And I'm allowed to work on the wiring on my own house even though I'm not an electrician. Do you think that this means professional electricians shouldn't need licenses either?

As a society, we've decided that people using their own stuff for non-commercial purposes don't have to meet the same standards as a professional doing similar things as a business. You can have whatever opinion you want about that, but the fact that RV drivers are exempt from hours of service rules is in keeping with this approach.

The risk exposure of an RV is generally way less than a commercial truck. An RV typically gets towed or driven a few times a year. This is very different from a commercial truck that's driven all day, every day.

RV drivers also don't have a financial incentive to drive fatigued the way a truck driver does.

And BTW: when I'm driving my own car, my GPS starts beeping at me to take a break after 2 hours. Lots of people I know follow a similar approach. Don't assume that everyone who doesn't have a logbook is driving 24 hours at a stretch.
Electronic logs are just a tightening of the hours of service rules which is complete b******* to begin with. It does nothing for driver fatigue increase the stress, takes away from a drivers pay, and creates dangerous situations as the clock ticks down. I've been driving for well over a decade and I know what I'm talking about because I drive tractor trailers.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
What sounds like the equivalent to the electronic logs were made mandatory by the EU in the late 1970s; there was exactly the same arguments over here as you are now repeating in the US. But they came in and are now seen as a good thing, reducing accidents from tired wagon drivers.
I don't know about the waiting times that seems to be a management issue; but I agree it isn't fair that drivers are sat around with no pay.
That's one of the hugest issues ever since mileage pay became the norm. Electronic logs and hour service rules affects driver pay. If it was perhaps hourly pay or a reasonable salary it might be different because it takes the pressure off the driver and more pressure on the company and shippers to keep things moving on their end.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Electronic logs are just a tightening of the hours of service rules which is complete b******* to begin with.
The only thing an electronic log can tighten is behaviour that was against the rules to begin with.

And electronic logs aren't just about hours of service. They also address the problem of drivers keeping two sets of logbooks.

It does nothing for driver fatigue
There's no way - short of tracking bracelets or the like - to mandate that a driver actually rests in a rest period. The best we can do is mandate that they not be on duty.

increase the stress, takes away from a drivers pay, and creates dangerous situations as the clock ticks down.
I know the Ontario hours of service rules better than the US rules. Here, you can extend your driving and on-duty time by up to 2 hours if you encounter "adverse driving conditions" that weren't known when the driver started their trip. Don't you have something like this in the US?

If you don't have this, I fully support tweaking the hours of service rules to include an exception like that. Apart from that, what you're really talking about is poor trip planning.

I've been driving for well over a decade and I know what I'm talking about because I drive tractor trailers.
And I'm a transportation engineer who works in road safety. Consider the possibility that I know what I'm talking about on the safety side of the picture.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Because I'm in the industry that consists of irregular hours and you can't be told when you're tired that you ought to be driving and you can't be told you should pull over when you're not tired.

Try driving under hours of service regulations in your personal car and the issue will speak for itself.
I sympathize with your complaints here, and endorse your support of whatever strike you have referred to. But there does seem to me that there needs to be some kind of regulation limiting the hours that truck drivers are allowed to be driving. No?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The only thing an electronic log can tighten is behaviour that was against the rules to begin with.

And electronic logs aren't just about hours of service. They also address the problem of drivers keeping two sets of logbooks.


There's no way - short of tracking bracelets or the like - to mandate that a driver actually rests in a rest period. The best we can do is mandate that they not be on duty.


I know the Ontario hours of service rules better than the US rules. Here, you can extend your driving and on-duty time by up to 2 hours if you encounter "adverse driving conditions" that weren't known when the driver started their trip. Don't you have something like this in the US?

If you don't have this, I fully support tweaking the hours of service rules to include an exception like that. Apart from that, what you're really talking about is poor trip planning.


And I'm a transportation engineer who works in road safety. Consider the possibility that I know what I'm talking about on the safety side of the picture.
Actually Ontario I find is quite similar to the US with some exceptions and yes there is a 2-hour provision for extenuating circumstances same here in the United States, but logging such a provision also needs to be backed up and generally discouraged overall as logging it that way can create more problems than it solves.

The problem with people who make these kind of rules rarely if at all includes actual truck drivers in the decision-making process. I would say most of these rules are politically driven in nature , are poorly thought up and implemented by people who have no idea what they're talkin about when it comes to what's on paper and what actually it is like in the real world.

The trucking industry is chosen because the industry is a lucrative cash cow and deregulation of the trucking companies themselves.

As a result things always goes back on the driver himself or herself and rarely if at all on the shippers and the companies where risk and consequence is low for lack of compliance. There have been steps to rectify it because in the US we have what they call a DAC score that reflects on both the driver and the company with real-world penalties.

One of the biggest problems was that hours-of-service actually was working and had statistically improved driver fatigue incidences prior to the last changes which consequently the latter changes made it far worse and forces drivers to pull over when they are not tired and forces drivers to drive when they are tired due to shipping and delivery schedules which are very irregular in the industry.

I blame the political climate primarily because there was working viable systems well prior to the ELD mandates, but that just wasn't good enough for them, they just had to have even more regulation to appease what is in my opinion artificially generated fear mongering for political and monetary gain.

If you were driving a truck yourself you'd swear you're living in a police state we have to go through law enforcement checkpoints every few hundred miles.

I'm sure Canadians truckers are just so sick of it as US Truckers given that not so far back every trucker parked on every weigh station that I passed during my travels through the GTA and left the trucks sitting there and left the MOT eating crow. God I wish truckers had done that in the states. Still I'll take this strike in April any day of the week. It's been long overdue for proper slow-moving convoys to make the scene and a strong statement that's something needs to be done about it.
 
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