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Featured It's a green truck -- mismanagement of verses from the Tanakh

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by IndigoChild5559, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Here is the second of the three topics I've picked.

    I almost never read links. It's because I come on for conversation. If I want to surf the web, I can do that on my own. However, it was clear that you felt overwhelmed by the length of the post and used a link to try to fit in an answer when you probably felt it would take you a good half hour to type one out. So I made an exception.

    The GIST of the link can be found in these words:
    "Likewise, I don’t believe Matthew thought Jesus’ flight to Egypt was predicted in Hosea 11:1. But I do believe that Matthew thought Jesus’ flight to and return from Egypt was filling up Hosea 11:1."

    My response is "baloney" -- Matthew was claiming that Hosea 11:1 was a prophecy and that it came true. This idea of "filling up" and shadows and stuff is just poetic stuff made up by those who have faced the truth about the obvious mismanagement of text in the Christian Scriptures, and who are desperate to come up with some way, any way, to work around it, no matter how obvious the denial is.

    Basically what I'm saying is, you can point to the truck and say, "well, it's really a shade of turqoise," and the world is still going to roll their eyes and say, "It's a stupid green truck."
     
    #1 IndigoChild5559, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Basically Jesus must fulfill all the prophecies of the Son of God. No matter who Exodus is talking about. "Out of Egypt I called my Son" means it doesn't matter. Jesus must fulfill it regardless. If Jesus is really the Son of God; then He must come out of Egypt at some point. So He did.

    Besides ... what if I told you that Jesus is Israel? Yes He is; more than Jacob!
     
  3. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    "When Israel was a child I loved him, and out of Egypt I have called my son" is NOT a prophecy, so no the messiah doesn't have anything in there to fulfill. It's a verse about the Exodus from Egypt. If you go to the beginning of Hosea 11 and read the entire paragraph, you will be embarrassed that you ever thought this was a prophecy.

    If you told me that Jesus was the entirety of Israel, i would look at you sadly. Even your Christian Scriptures make no claim that Jesus is the collective entity of Israel.
     
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  4. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Actually, IMV, it is. Many statements have dual applications. Just as when God told Moses to slay a lamb and not break a bone, there is an application for that moment even as it was a prophetic moment as the Romans came to break the bones in the knees of those crucified to hasted the death but found it not necessary to break the bones of Christ.

    After all, Matthew the writer was Jewish. He should know.
     
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  5. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Believe me I'm well aware of the context. It really is historical but also prophetic. Again it's obvious if Jesus is truly the Son then He must fulfill this verse so the scriptures are not broken. "I called my Son out of Egypt" must come true for Jesus if He is the Son.

    Jesus really is Israel but it's a mystery. Not something easily understood. You do agree that Jacob is Israel? God changed his name.
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Quite a few Christian theologians doubt that Jesus actually did go into Egypt, especially since it only shows up in one gospel. This account may have been put in there to connect Jesus with both Moses and Joseph as leaders of their people, thus having a symbolic meaning.

    As for me, as ol-- er, I mean mature-- as I am, I wasn't there to confirm nor deny.
     
  7. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    The whole point of Matthew, IMO, was to justify Jesus as the Messiah. Basically taking passages out of the OT out of context. It's early Christian apologetics. Not to be rude, but then to take this as the Word of God?
     
  8. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I'm Jewish and even I know you can be a Jew and be irrational.

    There are those in this world who, for different reasons (trauma, brain imbalance) will make associations that are clearly not there. For example, a woman might hear a random song playing on the radio and be absolutely convinced it is a message from Harrison Ford conveying his love to her. It's why Catholics see the Virgin Mary in the shadows on the wall. Most of the time, we don't say these folks speak for God. Most of the time.
     
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Sure, God changed Jacob's name to Israel Jesus is not Israel. The word "Israel" can refer either to Jacob, or to Jacob's descendants as a group. It cannot be used to apply to Jesus or to any one of Jacob's descendants.

    There is NOTHING in the Hosea text that supports the theory that "When Israel was young I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son" was a prophecy.
     
  10. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    In the Biblical sense of the word a prophecy is not always a prediction. In fact it should understood to mean any message or utterance delivered by a prophet that is from God. So in fact this should be considered a prophecy or message from God.

    Secondly you don't get to decide what is and isn't a future prediction. God does. So far, all you're doing is asserting that this cannot be a future prediction as well as a history. But, if God decided that His Son would be called out of Egypt 2 or 3 times or any number of times; then that is God's business. You can't argue with God.

    It was Jacob himself who was first named Israel. Therefore we can conclude that Jacob is the head of Israel. No one is properly Israel unless they are born from Jacob's lineage. However, Jacob as you know; died in Egypt and indeed he was called out of Egypt but only as a corpse. They took his body and buried it in Canaan. Again fulfilling Hosea's prophecy. But there is a catch. Just as Jacob was called out of Egypt as a corpse; so to are those who are born from Jacob going to die. As it is written "for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

    So to be more clear. There is no hope of resurrection in Jacob. But there is hope of resurrection in Jesus Christ. Therefore, we don't put hope for ourselves in the Israel that is passing back into dust. (all flesh is grass ... Isaiah 40:6) But we put our hope with the Israel that will live forever. And indeed this Israel begins in Jesus(He is the head of Israel) and even Jacob himself when he is resurrected(and he will be) will only be resurrected through Jesus Christ. So that Jesus is the eternal head of Israel. The true born Son of God. The first born Son of the resurrection.

    "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." (This is prophecy of when Jesus rose from the dead and became the firstborn Son from the dead.)

    This is all predicted in the Tanakh as it says in Isaiah 26:19 that your dead (people) will live(it's plural) my dead body they rise(the body is singular tense in Hebrew). So we know that this "body" that is singular tense is Jesus Christ and all who are resurrected are resurrected through Him.

    As Jesus says:
    Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (John 11:25)
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Well, yeah. And it's OBVIOUS when you go back to Hosea 11:1. I think it is jarring for Christians the first time they read the Hosea verse. They immediately have to search out websites that will somehow give them something, anything, that they can hang on to as an explanation why Matthew would do this. You never, for example, have Christian websites that deny Hosea 11:1 is actually about the Exodus and Israel.
     
  12. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Sir, it is neithr me, nor a voice from heaven that decides whether a prophecy includes a future prediction. It is the context of the text. In the case of Hosea 1, there is absolutely nothing in the context of the text that indicates any prediction.


    So far, all you're doing is asserting that this cannot be a future prediction as well as a history. But, if God decided that His Son would be called out of Egypt 2 or 3 times or any number of times; then that is God's business. You can't argue with God.

    Hosea 11:1 is NOT about Jacob's body being carried out of Egypt and reburied in the promised land. It's not. Its about God delivering the Children of Israel from Egypt during the Exodus. That is the ONLY understanding that the context supports.
     
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  13. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    True... but then one would have to decide which one was irrational, Matthew who knew and was taught by Rabbi Jesus or someone 2,000 years later :)
     
  14. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It is obvious to anyone with a sound mind and minimum reading comprehension that Hosea 11:1 is about the Exodus. Even Christians admit that it is. It is up to Matthew or you or anyone else to show from the context of Hosea 11 that the verse is meant to be predictive. And basically, Matthew didn't, and you can't -- no one can because it's just not there in the text.
     
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  15. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    What makes you think that the author of Matthew was Jewish? The book's author was anonymous and claiming that it was by Matthew puts a huge burden of proof upon you.

    It appears to be far more likely that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem, the authors of Luke and Matthew wrote that he was born there to "fulfill prophecy" .
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    What about the text of the whole scriptures?
     
  17. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Every sentence of every document, religious or not, should be read in context. There is never an excuse for taking out of context.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    I guess Matthew and I don't have sound mind and must have a minimum reading comprehension since we disagree with you.

    Prophecy can have dual application... then and now. Abraham's attempted sacrifice of Isaac was then and yet was also about Christ.

    Scofield:

    The words quoted are in Hosea 11:1 and the passage illustrates the truth that prophetic utterances often have a latent and deeper meaning than at first appears. Israel, nationally, was a " Song of Solomon 1:1 " Exodus 4:22 but Christ was the greater " Song of Solomon 1:1 " ; Romans 9:4 Romans 9:5 ; Isaiah 41:8 ; 42:1-4 ; Isaiah 52:13 Isaiah 52:14 where the servant-nation and the Servant-Son are both in view.
     
    #18 KenS, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
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  19. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    But my point is that we can learn about one scripture by comparing it to other scriptures. They will explain each other.
     
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    It also means you disagree with Christian scholars, who fully acknowledge that Hosea 11:1 is about the Exodus.

    If the Prophecy has a dual application, then you have to show it from the text. Where in Hosea 11 is there evidence that this is a messianic prophecy?
     
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