Italy's far right set to win election

[Rival]

Promoting one type of family is making it sound like it is better and preferred.

Well, I would say that it is

 

[Sand Dancer]

How is that indoctrination? Please elaborate. When I was a kid, we used to have a guy dressed up as a bear come read stories to us. Was that indoctrination too?

Did they try to indoctrinate you to the Furry lifestyle?

 

[Sand Dancer]

Well, I would say that it is

Why? Kids in LGBT households are not less successful than those from hetero households. I understand that they need some opposite gender role models, but as long as they are out in society, they will get that. It's just not right to discriminate against people for innate qualities. Health issues are one thing, but saying it's not moral is subjective.

 

[metis]

I think that after WW2 the term fascismo, which is an Italian term, has been de-contextualized from its own Italian context and used as synonym as authoritarian, dictatorial, etc... By whom? By others.

But that creates confusion. One cannot borrow a term from a very short period of history of a country, and universalize it.

There are many words that may whereas at least some meanings have been altered as time goes on, and that happens in all languages. However, that doesn't change the point of what we have seen with fascist leaders from Mussolini onward. Thus, the term still sets up a paradigm of leadership that is autocratic, thus not representing democratic nor Judeo-Christian nor humanitarian values.

Here: Fascism - Wikipedia

An excerpt:
Fascism is a far right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology and movement,[1][2][3] characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[2][3]...

Fascism rejects assertions that violence is inherently bad and views imperialism, political violence and war as means to national rejuvenation.[11] Fascists often advocate for the establishment of a totalitarian one-party state,[12][13] and for a dirigiste[14][15] economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky (national economic self-sufficiency) through protectionist and economic interventionist policies.[16] Fascism's extreme authoritarianism and nationalism often manifests as belief in racial purity or a master race, usually blended with some variant of racism or bigotry against a demonized "Other", such as Jews. These ideas have motivated fascist regimes to commit genocides, massacres, forced sterilizations, mass killings, and forced deportations.[17]... Fascism - Wikipedia

 

[metis]

Interesting how we have changed definitions to where conservatism translates into fascism...

I agree... I think people today have used the word "fascism" as a political tool to demean conservatism rather than applying it properly. (We do learn from the past but today's broad paint brush doesn't match history)

I literally am shocked you wrote the above as it is patently untrue. In my post #224, I connected the reader to a non-partisan link that covers "fascism" quite well, and it simply is not a "political tool" to demonize "conservatism". Nor is it in any way "Christian" either, even though fascist leaders have traditionally made the claim that it is to garner support for it, such as Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, etc.

Again, check my link because there simply is no way to reconcile fascism with Christianity.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Here: Fascism - Wikipedia

The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries, most notably Germany
- wiki -

Very worrying..

The advent of total war and the mass mobilization of society erased the distinction between civilians and combatants. A military citizenship arose in which all citizens were involved with the military in some manner.
- wiki -

We see Russians heading for the borders, atm, as they are clearly worried themselves.

 

[metis]

The first fascist movements emerged in Italy during World War I, before spreading to other European countries, most notably Germany
- wiki -

Exactly, and Hitler's inspiration on this was from Mussolini.

Very worrying..

It definitely should be!

We see Russians heading for the borders, atm, as they are clearly worried themselves.

Yes, and Putin is a neo-fascist even though he was a Marxist in his earlier career as head of the dreaded KGB. And as a side, why is it that Trump refuses to criticize Putin even after he invaded the Ukraine?

And at the last CPAC [Republican], they cheered Victor Orban, and he's at least fascist leaning:
Because of Orbán's curtailing of press freedom, erosion of judicial independence and undermining of multiparty democracy, many political scientists and watchdogs consider Hungary to have experienced democratic backsliding during Orbán's tenure.[5][6][7] Orbán's attacks on the European Union while accepting its money and funneling it to his allies and family have also led to characterizations of his government as an authoritarian kleptocracy.[8] His government has also been characterized as an autocracy.[9]...

In a speech delivered to the 31st Bálványos Free Summer University and Student Camp in July 2022, Orbán expressed views that were later described as "a pure Nazi text" that was "worthy of Goebbels." by one of his senior advisers, Zsuzsa Hegedus, in her letter of resignation.[20][227]...

According to Andrew Marantz, Orbán has passed laws, amended the constitution, and finally written a new constitution, allowing him to do what he wanted to do. Civic institutions such as courts, universities, and the apparatus necessary for free elections remain, but have been "patiently debilitated, delegitimatized, hollowed out", controlled by Orbán loyalists.[189] Domination of the public media by Orbán prevents the public from hearing critics point of view. In 2022, Orbán's opponent was given but five minutes on the national television "to make his case to the voters".[189] Private media outlets like the RTL, Atv, etc offered playtime for opposition members.

According to Andrew Marantz, an example of the discreet, below-the-radar process of accumulating power by Orbán and his party was the creation of a special police force that started as a small anti-terror unit. The unit grew and became more powerful "bit by bit in disparate clauses buried in unrelated laws".-- Viktor Orbán - Wikipedia

 

[Kenny]

I literally am shocked you wrote the above as it is patently untrue. In my post #224, I connected the reader to a non-partisan link that covers "fascism" quite well, and it simply is not a "political tool" to demonize "conservatism". Nor is it in any way "Christian" either, even though fascist leaders have traditionally made the claim that it is to garner support for it, such as Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, etc.

Again, check my link because there simply is no way to reconcile fascism with Christianity.

Sorry Metis. I didn't mean to say "everybody" does it and every instance it is applicable - but rather I find that in many instances....

My error.

EDIT: - and I hadn't seen your post... I was answer a much earlier one.

 

[Flankerl]

lmao this thread

Especially love PoC applauding the flipping Fascists.


Oh they aren't Fascists?
After WW2 the Fascist party was banned and a new totally unrelated party came about, funnily enough populated with Fascists.

The Movimento Sociale Italiano

They disbanded in 1995 and founded a new party, the Alleanza Nazionale

Which disbanded in 2009 merging with another party but then in 2012 former MSI and AN politicians founded Fratelli d'Italia

And would you look at that, Giorgia Meloni was in all of those parties.
What a huge coincidence.
I am sure the similarities between the logos are completely accidental.
As well as MSI/AN/FI personnel being largely the same.

What? She praised Nazi collaborators? Nah she wouldn't!
What? She wants to abolish the national holiday of the end of Fascist and Nazi rule in Italy? Nah she wouldn't!
What? She wants Dalmatia and Istria from Croatia? Nah she wouldn't!

You all do realise what the flame represents right?
Perhaps go to Mussolini's tomb and have a look.


But I am sure these are all just coincidences.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well, I would say that it is

I don't think the question is what you think. It's more 'what would you control or limit'...
And how you justify this, I guess.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

lmao this thread

Especially love PoC applauding the flipping Fascists.


Oh they aren't Fascists?
After WW2 the Fascist party was banned and a new totally unrelated party came about, funnily enough populated with Fascists.

The Movimento Sociale Italiano

They disbanded in 1995 and founded a new party, the Alleanza Nazionale

Which disbanded in 2009 merging with another party but then in 2012 former MSI and AN politicians founded Fratelli d'Italia

And would you look at that, Giorgia Meloni was in all of those parties.
What a huge coincidence.
I am sure the similarities between the logos are completely accidental.
As well as MSI/AN/FI personnel being largely the same.

What? She praised Nazi collaborators? Nah she wouldn't!
What? She wants to abolish the national holiday of the end of Fascist and Nazi rule in Italy? Nah she wouldn't!
What? She wants Dalmatia and Istria from Croatia? Nah she wouldn't!

You all do realise what the flame represents right?
Perhaps go to Mussolini's tomb and have a look.


But I am sure these are all just coincidences.

Nah, must be coincidence. After-all, she used some vague, euphemistic phrases that some people on these forums like the sound of, and we all know that fascists never cloak their intentions behind vague slogans with broad implications.

It does actually scare me how many people - even on these forums - are willing to overlook or outright ignore literally everything this person has said, done, advocated for or wants to put into policy, and they simply embrace slogans or speeches then point to those and say "these sound good, so how can she be bad?".

 

[RestlessSoul]

There are two questions here, which perhaps ought to be taken separately;

1) Does Georgia Meloni as Prime Minister constitute a threat to the human rights of minorities in Italy? and;
2) Is her party a threat to Italian democracy, and it’s legal institutions?

I don’t know enough about her, her party, or Italian politics to be able to answer either question. But trying to answer them seems more constructive than deciding whether she suits the label ‘fascist’. The far right in Europe and America wear business suits, not capes or jackboots, and throwing around emotive terms only muddies the waters if those terms aren’t properly defined and applied.

 

[metis]

1) Does Georgia Meloni as Prime Minister constitute a threat to the human rights of minorities in Italy? and;
2) Is her party a threat to Italian democracy, and it’s legal institutions?

Based on what she has said, yes and yes.

 

[Flankerl]

The upside is that governments in Italy are about as stable as a sandcastle when the tide comes in.

 

[Secret Chief]

Nah, must be coincidence. After-all, she used some vague, euphemistic phrases that some people on these forums like the sound of, and we all know that fascists never cloak their intentions behind vague slogans with broad implications.

It does actually scare me how many people - even on these forums - are willing to overlook or outright ignore literally everything this person has said, done, advocated for or wants to put into policy, and they simply embrace slogans or speeches then point to those and say "these sound good, so how can she be bad?".

Q: What do you call someone who supports fascist policies?

A:

 

[Estro Felino]

The upside is that governments in Italy are about as stable as a sandcastle when the tide comes in.

Berlusconi2 lasted 5 years, for the record.
The Italian Left is electorally dead.
It has lost 14 regions out of 20.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Berlusconi2 lasted 5 years, for the record.

Which should be a sign of tremendous national shame, frankly.

 

[Estro Felino]

Which should be a sign of tremendous national shame, frankly.

I think foreigners don't (or will not) understand Italians' psychology (with all due respect).
Italians feel proud of their own history, of every moment of their own history and they have always been victims. Conquered by all European peoples, they reached national unity in 1861-1870.

So... we have a welfare state, we have a social state, we have a NHS (unlike the United States, they have private healthcare ), we are the Paradise of Free Speech (I can say whatever I want, and I will never be considered politically incorrect). So I am very proud of being Italian. I am very proud of Giorgia Meloni.
I am very proud of my own history.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I think foreigners don't (or will not) understand Italians' psychology (with all due respect).
Italians feel proud of their own history, of every moment of their own history and they have always been victims. Conquered by all European peoples, they reached national unity in 1861-1870.

So... we have a welfare state, we have a social state, we have a NHS (unlike the United States, they have private healthcare ), we are the Paradise of Free Speech (I can say whatever I want, and I will never be considered politically incorrect). So I am very proud of being Italian. I am very proud of Giorgia Meloni.
I am very proud of my own history.

None of which has anything to do with what I said.

Berlusconi was a lying, manipulative, indefensible misogynistic crook, and it should be a point of national embarrassment that Italy elected him.

 

[Estro Felino]

None of which has anything to do with what I said.

Berlusconi was a lying, manipulative, indefensible misogynistic crook, and it should be a point of national embarrassment that Italy elected him.

His being heterosexual and fond of beautiful women is not something that makes him "bad" in the eyes of the Italian electorate. Quite the opposite.