1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

It is unbiblical The belief that the Bible is the sole rule of Christian theology

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by PopeADope, Jan 12, 2015.

  1. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2013
    Messages:
    28,492
    Ratings:
    +11,953
    Religion:
    Catholic-- liberal & ecumenical
    Only partially true.

    They worked with many different texts, including the ones not chosen, and they felt that the ones that could be linked back to the apostles through apostolic succession should be chosen. But note that 1. it was the church's decision on how to go about selecting the canon, and 2. that some books they were not too enthused about, especially Hebrews (unknown author) and Revelations (problems with authorship even though it says "John on Patmos", and also the issue of the "millennial reign"), and we know this from church records on the process.

    Secondly, there's no evidence whatsoever that suggests that the apostles chose any text with the exception some of Paul's earlier letters. However, they were not referred to as "scripture"-- just that they were worthy of reading and should be followed.

    No matter how one looks at it, it was the church that chose the canon and not the other way around.
     
  2. Wharton

    Wharton Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2015
    Messages:
    741
    Ratings:
    +104
    Hmm. The eldest Jewish son prays for his dead parents everyday for 11 months. To pray for 12 months would mean they went to hell.
     
  3. Unification

    Unification Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,040
    Ratings:
    +341
    Meditate on the Lord my friend, he has the only truth. Not any man, not any book, not any building.
     
  4. kepha31

    kepha31 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    699
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Catholic
    The bishops of the late 3rd century did not just make assumptions.

    We are talking about sola scriptura. Exaggerated fundamentalist hate speech is a red herring. I'd be glad to discuss the myths and realities of medieval history, this is not the place.

    The Bible was preserved, compiled and proclaimed by Catholic bishops who put the books of the Bible together under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit. If you refuse to accept historical facts, it's not my problem.

    This theory is a half truth. Gnostic "scriptures" were circulating too, and there had to be an authority to reject them. "Christs followers who met in private homes" were subject to men trained by the Apostles, who in turn trained other men. If you don't believe there was a hierarchy then you don't believe the Bible.

    That's what you have been taught. The "Church" was born at Pentacost. There have been administrative mistakes, there always will be, but the dominating dictator image of the Church is funnymentalist hate propaganda designed to fool ignorant people into buying stupid books and make lots of money, like Jackkk Chickkk. And your comment has nothing to do with the topic.

    Arius taught that Christ was a creature made by God. By disguising his heresy using orthodox or near-orthodox terminology, he was able to sow great confusion in the Church. He was able to muster the support of many bishops, while others excommunicated him.

    Arianism was solemnly condemned in 325 at the First Council of Nicaea, which defined the divinity of Christ, and in 381 at the First Council of Constantinople, which defined the divinity of the Holy Spirit. These two councils gave us the Nicene creed, which Catholics recite at Mass every Sunday.

    That's true, but it was Catholic bishops that got together in the early 4th century, some 70 years after the Council of Nicae, for the final compilation and papal approval for 73 books of the Bible.

    A Visual Diagram of the History of the New Testament Canon
    (all sources are Protestant)
     
    #44 kepha31, Jan 27, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2015
  5. nazz

    nazz Doubting Thomas

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    5,470
    Ratings:
    +515
    Religion:
    Gnostic Christian
    Of course they did. And a lot of modern scholars disagree with their conclusions.

    So much for "infallibility"
     
  6. Unification

    Unification Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,040
    Ratings:
    +341
    Why not just put ones trust in the Lord who is within? Why all this trust in man and a book? The only truth that is true and is no mistake is from the living Lord. Or did He stop speaking to people in their lives because an Almighty God wants people to look in a book instead? The only way I can find my Lord is in a book... That sounds terrible. I didn't know I needed an education in God... How silly does that sound, an education of God? What's really troublesome is all the man doctrine junk being taught to people leading them straight in a ditch. Hear the Word of God, hear the Word of God ...they say. . . Then pay me. Let's stop exalting men and a book and scriptures over the true Word of God who speaks to people within who genuinely seek Him in private, and is truth. If one doesn't hear His voice within, one is not doing something right.
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,276
    Ratings:
    +3,896
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    None of the seven you mention are gospels. They were originally included in the canon; they weren't excluded until the Protestants came along in the late 1500s.
     
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,276
    Ratings:
    +3,896
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Then none of the gospels is "God's word," since they were all written "post-apostles."
    So, IOW, you used a false criterion of stasis to make your decision, not realizing that the church, as a living entity, would grow and change over time.
    The church never relied "solely" on the bible until the Protestants came along 1500 years after Jesus. You've got two false criteria going here...
     
  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,276
    Ratings:
    +3,896
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    Private encounter has NEVER been the Christian paradigm. Relationship has always been the way of things. You can't love in a vacuum.
     
  10. Unification

    Unification Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,040
    Ratings:
    +341
    You have said that beautifully, friend. . The Lord shows us how to love and love purely, not ourselves, because He loved us first. Private encounters with God lead us to truth and love and pure love, then expressing itself to others, Him working through us and being led by the Spirit.
     
  11. gzusfrk

    gzusfrk Christian

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    803
    Ratings:
    +25
    [QUOTE="SaintMatthew, post: 4112235, member: 56003"The Bible is not easy to understand. It's a complex book whose words and ideas have captivated the world's most brilliant minds for millenia. Without an authoritative voice of interpretation --like a Church-- error and division are inevitable.





    Diary -[/QUOTE]
    I disagree, I believe the Word ( New Testament) is easy to understand, it was wrote for the children of God, His sheep. It was not necessarily wrote to be read, but it was wrote to read your heart, it tells you what it says according to your heart, no errors, just truth, which the heart of man has much difficult with.
     
  12. Unification

    Unification Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,040
    Ratings:
    +341
    I disagree, I believe the Word ( New Testament) is easy to understand, it was wrote for the children of God, His sheep. It was not necessarily wrote to be read, but it was wrote to read your heart, it tells you what it says according to your heart, no errors, just truth, which the heart of man has much difficult with.[/QUOTE]
     
  13. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,276
    Ratings:
    +3,896
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    God is found in the spaces between us.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    32,276
    Ratings:
    +3,896
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    This may be the weakest, most mawkish and maudlin aphorism I've ever encountered.
     
  15. gzusfrk

    gzusfrk Christian

    Joined:
    May 2, 2009
    Messages:
    803
    Ratings:
    +25
    Thank you, would you expect anything else?
     
  16. kepha31

    kepha31 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    699
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Catholic
    2 Peter 1:20 - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.
    interpreting Scripture is not a matter of one's own private interpretation. Therefore, it must be a matter of "public" interpretation of the Church. The Divine Word needs a Divine Interpreter. Private judgment leads to divisions, and this is why there are THOUSANDS of different Protestant denominations.

    2 Peter 3:16 -As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. the Scriptures are difficult to understand and can be distorted by the ignorant to their destruction. God did not guarantee the Holy Spirit would lead each of us to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. But this is what Protestants must argue in order to support their doctrine of sola Scriptura. History and countless divisions in Protestantism disprove it.
     
  17. katiemygirl

    katiemygirl CHRISTIAN

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,038
    Ratings:
    +513
    Religion:
    CHRISTIAN
    =
    The gospels were written post apostles? You are joking, right? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote their gospels after they were dead? Think about what you are saying. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John all wrote their gospels before the last apostle died, which was JOHN. What you say makes no sense.

    God's word never changes. I don't know where you come up with the idea that the church, as a living entity would change over time. How about a Scripture that says such a thing; book, chapter and verse PLEASE. Last time I checked, the church was built on the doctrine of Jesus and the apostles, and not what men did or said outside of God's word.

    We are not to go beyond what is written. What anyone did after the last book of the New Testament was written (Revelation) should never dictate God's will for His people. That's what we have the New Testament for. If you think the New Testament is false criterion to make decisions concerning God's will, then you have a serious issue. Anything written outside of the Bible is the doctrines of men. I'll stick to God's word, thank you very much.

    The following verses state that everything we need to know about salvation and living a godly life is found in the Scriptures.

    2 Peter 1:3
    By his divine power, God has given us everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know him, the one who called us to himself by means of his marvelous glory and excellence.

    2 Timothy 3:15-16
    15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of Goda]">[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,664
    Ratings:
    +1,617
    Funny thread. It presupposes an alternative to someone getting their spirituality from the Bible exclusively, //a strawman//, here, to a specific denomination. It seems like a lose/lose situation for anyone who disagrees with the designated denomination. Because then you are guilty of the strawman. Get it? It's very clever, actually.
     
  19. kepha31

    kepha31 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2011
    Messages:
    699
    Ratings:
    +99
    Religion:
    Catholic
    Agreed. It's opinions of sola scripturists that fragment into thousands of denominations. It doesn't work.
    I would say develop, to address the needs (and the heresies) of the times that are not explicitly found in the Bible. "Develop" does not mean "change".
    John 14:26 -
    But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

    Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors, not individual bible readers) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

    John 16:12 -I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
    Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn't bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church's infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God's Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

    John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear,that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

    1 Timothy 3:15 KJV
    But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
    It doesn't say the Bible is the pillar and ground of truth. A divine book needs a divinely guided interpreter.

    Again, you are half right. Nowhere in the Bible is "God's word" confined to the written word alone. If you disagree, chapter and verse, please.

    1 Corinthians 4:6 (NIV))
    6Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.


    After Paul's first visit to Corinth, to establish the "Church" he discovered that the church was in the process of splitting with some factions claiming they belonged to "Paul" others to "Peter" and still others claiming to have a relationship with "JESUS" that no other group had.
    Pauls declaration not to go beyond what is written ( or set down) was intended to bring the Church back to the faith and away from all the factions that were splitting the Church through the different interpretations and claims of authority.
    As per philosophy professor Peter Kreeft advises, "We do not have the authority to edit the words of GOD", which was what was happening in Corinth - and following Father Martin Luther's posting of the 99 thesis.

    I'll have to address this in another post. This is getting too long.

    The following verses state that everything we need to know about salvation and living a godly life is found in the Scriptures.

    2 Peter 1:3
    By his divine power, God has given *us* everything we need for living a godly life. We have received all of this by coming to know him, the one who called us to himself by means of his marvelous glory and excellence.

    *us* does not mean individual bible readers, it means the Apostles and their successors who were commissioned to "teach all nations"
    everything we need is not referring to a New Testament that did not yet exist. It refers to the deposit of faith that was both handed down and written. To make one mode of transmission inferior or opposed to the other is unbiblical and a corrupt tradition of men.
    It's no accident that defenders of sola scriptura always omit verse 14.
    2 Timothy 3
    14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned
    (TRADITION) and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it (MAGISTERIUM) 15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings (SCRIPTURE) which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    Now let's string these together so that we get the complete idea that St. Paul was trying to get across:

    Continue in what you have learned, knowing from whom you learned it and you have been acquainted with the sacred writings that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

    Or to paraphrase even further:

    Continue in the Traditions which you learned from Magisterial authority and study the Bible so that you may be fully equipped for every good work.

    Verse 14 and 15 is a rebutting defeater to the much abused and isolated 2 Tim 3:16; sola scripturists ignore the previous 2 verses.

    Interestingly enough in Catholic Tradition the four uses of Scripture corresponded to the Quadriga, the four-fold method of exegesis for the Bible used in the medieval period:
    Literal (teaching),
    Analogical (reproof),
    Prophetic (correction),
    and Moral (training in righteousness).
    The protestant reformers rejected this and tried to reduce biblical exegesis to the literal-historical method. In doing so, they were considered by their Catholic contemporaries as being unbiblical for ignoring 2 Tim 3:16.
     
  20. kjv4me2you

    kjv4me2you Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2012
    Messages:
    196
    Ratings:
    +20
    Jesus chose 12 apostles but it was YHWH-YaH who gave them to Jesus.
    (John 15:16 KJV) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    (John 17:2 KJV) As thou-YHWH-YaH hast given him- ( Jesus) power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou-YHWH-YaH hast given him.

    (John 17:3 KJV) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee-(YWH-YaH) the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou(-YHWH-YaH) hast sent.

    (John 17:12 KJV) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name (YHWH-YaH) : those that thou-(YaH) gavest me- (Jesus) I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Did the church decide what Jesus would say or did Jesus say and do what his Father and God commanded/willed him to say from YHWH-YaH's Book.


    (Prov 30:5 KJV) Every word of God is pure: he-it-H1931 is a shield unto them that put their trust in it.


    (Prov 30:6 KJV) Add thou not unto his words-Book-H1697, lest he-it reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

    God said He wrote His BOOK=(Exo 32:33 KJV) And YHWH_YaH said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me-YHWH-YaH, him will I blot out of my Book.

    Blotted out of God's Book, not blotted out of the rcc's book.

    God wrote His Book and preserves His Book without the help of Roman councils. God wrote His Book from Genesis to Revelation and gave it to the Hebrews, to Israel His Son even His Firstborn (Exo 4:22. and Exo 24:12).

    Why would YHWH-YaH who wrote His Book and gave it to His Firstborn Son Israel and declare He would preserve His BOOK forever, then for some reason change His mind and decide the Romans could do a better job at preserving His Book for ever?

    (Exo 24:12 KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I-YHWH-YaH will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I-YHWH-YaH have written; that thou mayest teach them.

    Exo 24:12 is speaking about YHWH-YaH writing the 10 commandments, the law, and commandments.

    (Exo 32:33 KJV) And YHWH-YaH said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I-YHWH-YaH blot out of MY Book.


    THE WORDS OF YHWH-YaH ARE PURE WORDS
    (Psa 12:6 KJV) The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    Vile men do not believe the sola words of God. The First Adam should have believed solely the words of God and he should not have believed satan's added word "NOT" spoken to Eve by the serpent .
    The inability of Adam and Eve to solely believe the words of God was why they sinned against the word of God.


    YHWH-YaH said
    (Gen 2:17 KJV) But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    The serpents added on word "not" .
    (Gen 3:4 KJV) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    Adam and Eve by believing the added word "NOT" from the serpent caused all men to believe that man can believe words added to the word of God.

    Not believing the sola word of God is why Adam and Eve surely died unlearned and unstable perverts, double minded.
    (James 1:8 KJV) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


    (2 Pet 3:16 KJV) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction

    (Psa 12:8 KJV) The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

    The wicked walk on every side of the pure words of God but they never walk in the doctrine of sola scripture for all church doctrines.

    The wicked have THEIR rock but their rock IS NOT OUR ROCK

    (Deu 32:31 KJV) For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges.

    (Deu 32:32 KJV) For their vine is of the vine of Sodom, and of the fields of Gomorrah: their grapes are grapes of gall, their clusters are bitter:

    willyah
     
    #60 kjv4me2you, Jan 29, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
Loading...