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Featured It is man's fault, not God's fault

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Shakeel, Mar 14, 2021.

  1. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

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    I have yet to see any evidence or even a convincing reference to this being true. Note: proving there was garbage near Jerusalem doesn't suffice.

    Intellectual honesty will prevent anyone who accepts the Bible from denying the many verses that talk about hell in no uncertain terms, such as this:

    Matthew 13, 49 "is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous" 50 "and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 51 '“Have you understood all these things?” Jesus asked. “Yes,” they replied.'
     
  2. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Oh, OK. So then it isn't only God's enemies that get killed at armegeddon? Innocent children get killed as well?

    The flood (dunno about the 70 CE destruction of Jerusalem) shows that God has no problem killing those who aren't his enemies since young children don't have such a view of him.
     
  3. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

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    The point of the OP is that you have heard the warnings.
    whatever you choose call it, the Qur'an says the dead do not hear. Why do the teachings you follow contradict the Qur'an? What kind of wisdom do you think the dead can give you?
    By esoteric do you refer to your abandoning the rulings of Islam or to that Islam was no supposedly something revealed to all men, but rather just to small special groups of people? Or something else?
    Who has excluded spirituality from religion? Sufism means wearing clothes made of wool.
    Cutting verses now?

    Surat Yusuf[12], ayah 53 says "And I do not acquit myself. Indeed, the soul is a persistent enjoiner of evil, except those upon which my Lord has mercy. Indeed, my Lord is Forgiving and Merciful."

    Surat l-Fur'qan[25], ayah 43 says "Have you seen the one who takes as his god his own desire? Then would you be responsible for him?"
    And here it doesn't use the word nafs.

    The rest you quote as though it was part of the previously mentioned ayah, is from Surat al-Jathiyah, ayah 23 and it says: "Hast thou ever considered [the kind of man] who makes his own desires his deity, and whom God has [thereupon] let go astray, knowing [that his mind is closed to all guidance], and whose hearing and heart He has sealed, and upon whose sight He has placed a veil? Who, then, could guide him after God [has abandoned him]? Will you not, then, bethink yourselves"

    So again, where does Islam say you have to do away with your ego?
     
  4. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    To understand sufism you must read up on it. I am not a teacher in sufism so what i can provide is my understanding of the Osmanli Naksibendi teaching. This teaching goes all the way back to the Holy prophet Muhammad. With more than 40 Grand Sheykhs.
    The teaching is within the quran, hadith, sunnah. And a lot of teachings passer down by the 40 Grand Sheykhs.
    That you do not accept this teaching or tarika is ok, i do not blame you.
    If you do not wish to call it islam, that is up to you. Personally i have no doubt in the teaching or in the 40 Grand Sheykhs or my own teacher.

    Your have not even Said a word about if you are a sunni or shia muslims, but you know, it does not matter to me because you are free to follow the teaching that you do. I have zero reason to speak bad about you, your belief or other people who believe different than i do.

    People follow their belief, i follow my belief.
     
  5. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

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    So no answer once again. You say you follow the Sunnah and the Qur'an. Don't you understand the contradiction on saying you follow the Sunnah and not followong it and on saying you follow the Qur'an and not following it?

    You're also basically saying the Prophet (ﷺ) didn't tell the whole truth to people, rather he passed down secret information to specific people. Such claims require evidence from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. You have provided zero.

    If you actually cared about the truth, you would want an answer to such questions and contradictions, but apparently you don't care. You would rather hide behind the statement that you don't know much. But when I place the evidence right in front of you, you ignore it. If I show you verses from the Qur'an or hadiths, and the hadiths are authentic, you have no choice but to accept them. If you do not, you and others have to conclude you neither accept nor follow the sunnah.

    You cannot be on two opposing sides at the same time.

    To quote the source you yourself used:
     
  6. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    Without accusing you of anything, you sound like an wahhabi who hate sufism :)

    If i am wrong thats on me. But you only attack and have nothing good to say.
    This is the reason I do not answer. Because no matter what my answer will be, you will continue your critique. And nothing good will come from it.
     
  7. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

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    You don't know what wahabbism means.
    I dislike kufr. Your brand of sufism enjoins it.

    We are not to speak about Islam if we don't know what we are talking about.
    Surat al-A'raf, ayah 33 "Say: "Verily, my Sustainer has forbidden only, shameful deeds, be they open or secret, and [every kind of] sinning, and unjustified envy, and the ascribing of divinity to aught beside Him - since He has never bestowed any warrant therefor from on high - and the attributing unto God of aught of which you have no knowledge."

    Surat l-Isra, ayah 36 "And follow not that of which you have not the knowledge; surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that."

    I have nothing good to say? Is talking about the Quran something bad to say? Is referring to the sunnah something bad to say? Is advising another person something bad to say? What is it that I say that you think is bad, to be specific?

    You have yet to show me a place where I have been disrespectful as you implied in the beginning that I had been. Feel free to show where I have been impolite or where I have failed to provide a reference to what I say or where I have said something untrue.

    I thought you don't answer because you don't know. Now it is because I "have nothing good to say". Are you now able to answer me?

    If that were true you wouldn't be here. You don't mind the atheists continuing their critic. You invite it in fact. Is there anyone else here whom you refuse to answer to because they continue to disagree with you?

    You continue to disagree with me as well.

    Nothing good will come from critique? Then why do you want it from atheists?

    Another round of deflection on your part.
     
  8. Seeker of White Light

    Seeker of White Light Free spirit

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    An Explanation of Islam and Sufism (seen from sufism) take a look at this to understand different in sunni/shia vs sufism
     
  9. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Sure, these are ideals. But David failed and so too did Moses.

    The point is that this is a partnership. And really no one can succeed without God so He has His part of the bargain to live up to.

    "God helps those who help themselves" may not be a quote from the Bible but it is backed by scripture (see God helps those who help themselves - Wikipedia). God needs us to make an effort but we need God to do the same.

    At some point the relationship fails and God's inaction could reasonably be seen as equally at fault. Consider Hitler for instance.

    But in the end God made the world and pronounced it good. And then God made us. Not man made man, but God made man. What will be the consequences of God's action?
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I think there is a BIG difference between failed (or failure) and made a mistake.
    In God's Word (Holy Bible) I don't see Moses classed as failed - Hebrews 11:24-29
    Nor do I see repentant David as failed according to Hebrews 11:32-34
    I find in Scripture that God made Man on creative Day 6 which Day 6 ends as "Very Good" - Genesis 1:27,31.

    What we now see are the bad consequences of Adam's action - 2 Timothy 3:1-5,13.
    The opposite of Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6 and John 13:34-35.
    What we will see is God's Good Judgement action as found at Revelation 22:2.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    God knows the cut-off point. We can't read hearts.
    The children of Noah's day and Sodom and Gomorrah would have grown up violent like the parents.
    God did Not create Earth to be inhabited by violent people.
    Earth was created for humble meek upright people.
    This is why Jesus will separate the figurative humble 'sheep' from the haughty 'goats' - Matthew 25:31-33,37.

    If God had Not taken the action that He did there would have been No one righteous left on Earth.
    For the sake of the righteous God will have Jesus take the action of Isaiah11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
    Everyone can ' repent ' if they don't want to ' perish ' - 2 Peter 3:9

    P.S. Back in the '80 I got an obscene phone call.
    A filthy-mouthed woman in the background was telling a young boy what to say.
    I told the nervous young boy to tell his mother she needs a doctor.
    End of phone call.

    Also, a long time back, one day I called the police about a few very-young boys throwing stones off a hill down towards highway traffic. The police man told me boys will be boys.
    I was speechless at his reply, and afterwards I thought if the Mayor's mother's car was hit would he be saying , 'boys will be boys' ! I watched this happen from work for almost a half hour.
     
    #111 URAVIP2ME, Mar 22, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, even dead Jesus was in biblical hell according to KJV Acts of the Apostles 2:27
    Jesus taught the dead 'sleep', so dead Jesus was sleeping Not burning in biblical hell.- John 11:11-14
    That symbolic ' blazing furnace ' is the ' second death ' of Revelation 21:8.
    Matthew 13:47-50 is in connection to Jesus' illustration about the fishing dragnet at Matthew 13:47-48.
    Un-suitable 'fish', so to speak, are separated, just like separation between 'sheep' and 'goats' at Matthew 25:31-33.
    Scripture teaches the wicked are ' destroyed forever ' according to Psalms 92:7; Psalms 104:35.
    The choice at 2 Peter 3:9 is Not ' blazing fire ' but to ' repent ' or ' perish ' ( perish meaning: being destroyed )
    So, Matthew 13:3 informs us what Jesus is saying is in parable or illustrative form from verses 1 to 52.
    See also Mark 4:2-34 and Luke 8:4-18
     
  13. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Are you implying that children always grow up to be like their parents? What about JW's who come from abusive backgrounds but turn out to be good people?

    Here are my anecdotal examples:

    I know a few children with violent, abusive parents. They rejected those ways and turned out to not be violent. This is in a violent community mind you.

    I know children who reject the ways of their communities and their parents from various religious backgrounds.

    Why do you use examples that favour your position and don't also including examples that do not favour your position?
     
  14. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Are you Wahabbi?
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    No, Not ' always ' that is why all are asked to ' repent ' if one does Not want to ' perish ' - 2 Peter 3:9
    However, at Noah's day and Sodom and Gomorrah they were past the point of repenting, past redemption.
    In other words, God knew the ' cut off ' time or point.
    Unlike people, God can read hearts and know when a situation is beyond hope.
    When the ' time of separation ' on Earth comes (Matthew 25:31-33,37) it is Not in what people judge but what judgement God has placed in the hands of Christ Jesus as this coming 'cut off ' point or time.
     
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  16. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    So then would you say that civilization that will be around at the end times will eventually reach a point of depravity so bad that it is even inevitable that the children will turn out just as depraved?
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    That was the situation at the time of Genesis 6:11.
    Yes, God, who can read hearts, saw it was inevitable that the children would turn out just as depraved, violent.
    And that 'day of judgement' was to clear things up and give the opportunity to make better.
    Thus, Armageddon survivors (this un-numbered great crowd of Rev. 7:9,14) will have a righteous start.
    Resurrected people will have a righteous start.
    By the end of Jesus' Millennial reign over Earth those who prove or remain righteous will gain everlasting life.
     
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  18. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

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    No. I am a Muslim.
     
  19. Israel Khan

    Israel Khan Well-Known Member

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    Do you follow any specific Islamic school of thought?
     
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  20. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

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    Blame is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. What does Blame really get you? Better energy is spent on solving problems and concentrating on results.

    Is this world the way it is because of God?? You bet it is!! This world is a MASTERPIECE!!! Yes, Yes, including all the kiddies.

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
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