It is man's fault, not God's fault

[Evangelicalhumanist]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

Oh, so God didn't make all the parasites that plague and kill us, or configure the earth so that we could have earthquakes and tsunamis that kill people indiscriminately by the thousands and hundreds of thousands? God didn't create the genes that shape our bodies -- sometimes in extremely tragic ways? We did all that? Gosh, who knew!

 

[blü 2]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

[He] also gave clear commands not to eat pork or shellfish, not to suffer a witch to live, not to keep company with menstruating women. And to put to death men who shaved their beards, children who razzed their parents and more. [He] set out the rules for owning, bonking and selling slaves, including rules on how to sell your daughter.

Do you observe all those rules? If you only pick and choose, no wonder God's angry with you.

 

[shivsomashekhar]

They are and they are wonderfully created, but they have a free will and they choose how they behave.

There is the problem.

1. Free will is causing misery
2. The all-knowing Allah created the concept of free will

Hence, Allah knew his design was imperfect, but went ahead with it anyway. He could have opted for a perfect design where people would have no desire to commit evil, but he chose a less perfect solution.

There is no way you can posit a creator god and then claim that he is not responsible.

 

[wellwisher]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

In America, the answer yes and is this is due to lawyer, frivolous lawsuits and left leaning judges who grant large settlements. This sends the wrong message. As an example, years back a woman burnt herself with a cup of hot coffee she bought at a fast-food restaurant. Her lawyer sued the "deep pockets" chain and got a large settlement. The message sent is the person who warns other can be liable and the bonehead is not responsible. This is one of the many reasons Jesus did away with law. It is too easy to game the system via law.

Law is connected to the tree of knowledge of good and evil and Satan. In the garden of eden this was never intended for humans but became part of a punishment. It is not coincidence that lawyers are among the least trusted professions. In many western government, especially USA, leadership is saturated with members of the least trusted profession. Lawyers are of charge of making self serving laws. In the USA if you illegally enter the country you can get the corona vaccine ahead of law abiding citizen based on Democrat lawyer laws.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The free will which was given to man. The free will comes from God. How one uses it is one's own decision. Or do you feel unable to control your behaviour?

To a certain extent, I don't. And you don't either.

Free will - if it exists at all - is just the freedom to choose whether to act on our desires. It has nothing to do with creating those desires in the first place, or with our desires being physically possible.

If you disagree, try to change your desires. Deliberately choose to, say, sincerely want to be an atheist. Can you do it?

So if someone steals from you does it suffice they say "it wasn't me. This is how I was created"?

I think you've misunderstood my argument.

I don't accept most of your underlying assumptions. I'm just telling you that, given all your assumptions, what you're saying is not internally consistent.

Rather the Qur'an says in Surat al-Nisaa, ayah 79 "Whatever benefit comes to you (O man!), it is from Allah, and whatever misfortune befalls you, it is from yourself, and We have sent you (O Prophet!), to mankind as a messenger; and Allah is sufficient as a witness."

What a small, weak god that makes Allah seem like.

All this misfortune in the world and all of it it coming from some source besides him that he's unable to stop? I suppose I should pity him.

I mean, imagine that: an omniscient being, watching all of the suffering that exists and being powerless to stop any of it. It sounds tragic.

 

[Samael_Khan]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

At what point in history are you talking about? Certainly those in the Americas for instance did not hear these things until relatively recently. And then God didn't provide enough evidence that it was him who gave those commands so there wasn't that much people to follow them in any case.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

Not everybody has heard. Especially tribes in remote areas of the world.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

Of course not. But we do blame them for making a faulty device, which is the case in this discussion.

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

What consequences are we talking about here? Cause and Effect or a person doing the punishing?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.
Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.
If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?
If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

The ^above^ post reminds we about a 'car warranty' because the warranty comes with requirements.
If something goes wrong the warranty will take care of the car, thus the warranty requires us to keep up our end of the warranty obligation. So, a person needs to keep up his obligation to God's requirements to be cared for.
- Psalms 91:14-16

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

So you're saying things like the corona virus, earthquakes, cancer, tsunami's, meteor impacts, etc are caused by gay people having sex, muslims praying to allah, being a member of la cosa nostra, cheating on your wife and then lying about it, etc?

For real?

Do you take yourself seriously, when you say such things?
Because I have a hard time with it.

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

I got a funny metaphor here in context of your theology.

When a mob guy puts his gun to your head and demands you to pay protection money and says "...don't make me kill you...", and he shoots you after you refuse to pay... Then you did not just commit suicide.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Say someone designs and builds a house. Then, termites get in and compromise the house's structure.

Now... the designer did foresee the termite issue, so he took precautions: at every place that was vulnerable to termites, he had a little sign erected saying "termites do not enter! No termites allowed!"

Would you say that the designer:

- made a perfect design; it's just that the termites were disobedient, or
- made a poor design, because he failed to properly address a foreseeable problem?

That was absolutely brilliant.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That is contrary to the Qur'an.

Al-Mujaadilah 22 "You will not find a people who believe in Allah and the Last Day having affection for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred. Those - He has decreed within their hearts faith and supported them with spirit from Him. And We will admit them to gardens beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally. Allah is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him - those are the party of Allah. Unquestionably, the party of Allah - they are the successful."

Surat Hud 113 "And incline not to those who do wrong, or the Fire will seize you; and ye have no protectors other than Allah, nor shall ye be helped."

Al-Maaidah 51 "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

So really, this religious faith-based belief of yours has such an impact on your life that it pretty much excludes roughly 30% of earths population of socializing with you.

That's more then 2 billion people that you can't be friends with, because of what you believe only.

How horribly socially crippling that is.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Humans were created in an excellent form, but their behaviour is not necessarily excellent.

So it's only the biological build then that is "perfect"?

Is that why so many we have a mouth that is to small for all teeth?
Or why we have a spine that isn't really fit for bipedalism, causing lower-back pains in about 70% of humans?
Or why we breath and eat through the same tube, which makes it possible to choke to death on a piece of bread?
Or why our eyes are "backwards", what with all the wiring in front of the light sensitive cells, causing a blind spot that needs to be rectified by the brain by "filling in the blanks", which is ridiculously inefficient?
...

Doesn't sound so perfect to me.

They have the capacity to do right. They are able to tell right from wrong.

Not all of them. Generally only those with the trait of empathy. Those that lack this, are called psychopaths. It's a diagnose, not a choice.

Choosing to do wrong is a fault in the doer, not in the creator.

Doing wrong is not always a choice though.
In fact, there can be a lot of debate about what "wrong" really is - and that certainly includes "wrong" as defined by your specific religion.

Also oftenly, those who do "wrong" firmly believe that their acting is the opposite: right.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

At what point in history are you talking about? Certainly those in the Americas for instance did not hear these things until relatively recently. And then God didn't provide enough evidence that it was him who gave those commands so there wasn't that much people to follow them in any case.
Not everybody has heard. Especially tribes in remote areas of the world.
Of course not. But we do blame them for making a faulty device, which is the case in this discussion.
What consequences are we talking about here? Cause and Effect or a person doing the punishing?

First, people who died before Jesus (John 3:13) we know did Not have the opportunity to put faith in Jesus.
Jesus' ransom covers those people because in the coming Resurrection they will have the opportunity to know and choose about Jesus at that future time - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Plus, notice at Matthew 24:14 it is about earth's 'nations' (so Not every individual because new people are born daily).
As far as remote areas today: there are local remote translation offices located right where remote people live.
So, people even in remote areas can have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.

As far as those already dead, ' death ' can stamp the price tag of sin as: Paid in Full - Romans 6:23,7.
Those who are still 'alive' at the coming 'Glory Time' of Matthew 25:31-33,37 will have heard about Jesus.
The figurative haughty ' goats ' are the ones who bring ruin to Earth - Revelation 11:18 B.
The figurative humble ' sheep ' are the ones who can remain alive on Earth and be here to see calendar Day One of Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
Jesus as the person who executes the 'goats' - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15
Thus, making Earth safe for humble meek people to inherit the Earth as promised at Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Oh, so God didn't make all the parasites that plague and kill us, or configure the earth so that we could have earthquakes and tsunamis that kill people indiscriminately by the thousands and hundreds of thousands? God didn't create the genes that shape our bodies -- sometimes in extremely tragic ways? We did all that? Gosh, who knew!

Jesus never said his God caused the earthquakes, etc ( Luke 21:11 ) but Jesus was teaching that such things would be happening before the coming ' time of separation ' to take place on Earth - Matthew 25:31-33,37.

 

[Samael_Khan]

First, people who died before Jesus (John 3:13) we know did Not have the opportunity to put faith in Jesus.
Jesus' ransom covers those people because in the coming Resurrection they will have the opportunity to know and choose about Jesus at that future time - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
Plus, notice at Matthew 24:14 it is about earth's 'nations' (so Not every individual because new people are born daily).
As far as remote areas today: there are local remote translation offices located right where remote people live.
So, people even in remote areas can have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native languages.

As far as those already dead, ' death ' can stamp the price tag of sin as: Paid in Full - Romans 6:23,7.
Those who are still 'alive' at the coming 'Glory Time' of Matthew 25:31-33,37 will have heard about Jesus.
The figurative haughty ' goats ' are the ones who bring ruin to Earth - Revelation 11:18 B.
The figurative humble ' sheep ' are the ones who can remain alive on Earth and be here to see calendar Day One of Jesus' Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years.
Jesus as the person who executes the 'goats' - Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15
Thus, making Earth safe for humble meek people to inherit the Earth as promised at Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5

Your point is different from the OP's point which is what I am replying to her. Bare in mind that the poster is muslim so they have a specific group of beliefs as well, such as nobody converting but reverting due to apparently everybody knowing that God exists.

Basically you are saying that those who are ignorant will have the opportunity to be taught about God and his laws. Then at some point everybody will know that God exists because Armageddon happened and God made himself known. Then those who disagree with the right rule will rebel with Satan after 1000 years and cause havok but they will face negative consequences of those actions.

I have no problem with those concepts because people get judged after definitely knowing as opposed to the OP who says that everybody knows Gods Laws. Also what your concept addresses is that everybody will objectively know God exists or at least Jesus exists and prophecies were fulfilled as opposed to the OP who says that everybody knows God and disobeys him even though there is not sufficient evidence for God at the moment.

The only problem I have with the JW idea of Armegeddon is that it is unclear whether it is those who oppose Gods people who get destroyed at Armageddon or all those who aren't JWs who get destroyed or if both those groups are synonymous.

 

[sealchan]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

This is partially true, but it is also simplistic. Initially the rule giver is usually responsible for the rule learner's ability to follow the rules. The rule giver must teach and prepare the rule learner. Responsibility is shared and this is why the rule giver may come to regret their own actions with respect to the rule followers under their charge. God is certainly not off the hook here and in the case of the failure of the human race altogether would have no one else to blame.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

There are other analogies that work against you. For example - if the soldiers (followers of their leader) of a given encampment break lines and go on a rogue mission that endangers their fellow soldiers, is it only the soldiers who acted thusly who are taken to task? No - we also look to the one who was in charge of them - the one who was meant to be leading them. You ALSO hold accountable the one who was supposed to be giving them direction.

Same with employees who are accomplishing some unified/group task. If deadlines aren't met, and the project is a shambles, who is held most accountable? The individual employees, or the one who should have been checking up on them, and setting them straight when they weren't getting the job done?

One could easily argue that, if God wants His directions to be followed, then He really needs to be around a lot more, pushing various people in the right directions. In other words, to effectively lead, one needs to be PRESENT, and actively taking a role in the leadership. Wouldn't you agree? Or is it simply fine to show up, drop a set of instructions, and then walk away? Which do you think is more likely to help keep people on the right track?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

......................
The only problem I have with the JW idea of Armegeddon is that it is unclear whether it is those who oppose Gods people who get destroyed at Armageddon or all those who aren't JWs who get destroyed or if both those groups are synonymous.

Thank you for your reply.
First, Armageddon is the War to end all wars - Psalms 46:9
Scripture teaches that 'Jesus' is the way, the truth, and the life.
That places Jesus as the one to follow if one wants everlasting life.
Jesus is the one who will separate people at the coming Time of Separation as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
So, we are Not the judge as to who will end up as a figurative humble 'sheep' or haughty 'goat'.
In Scripture Jesus can read hearts. Scripture teaches it's the wicked to be 'destroyed forever'- Psalms 92:7; 104:35.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............ God is certainly not off the hook here and in the case of the failure of the human race altogether would have no one else to blame.

Thankfully, people like faithful Job and Jesus under adverse conditions remained faithful to God.
So, it is Not the failure of the whole human race, but the failure of people turning their backs on God.
Turning their backs on the Golden Rule and Jesus' new commandment to have the same self-sacrificing love for others as he has - John 13:34-35.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

People blame God for that the world is the way it is, but God gave clear commands and most people cannot claim they haven't heard: don't kill, steal, lie, back bite, fornicate, give false witness, deceive, slander, commit adultery, commit homosexual acts, worships other gods, make images, etc.

Everybody has heard and still most people don't follow the directions.

If someone gives you a device and directions on how to you use it, but you don't follow them and it breaks, do you blame the maker?

If someone warns you against doing something and you disobey, do you blame the one who warned you for the consequences of your disobedience?

I can think of three commandments off the top of my head that God should follow:

1. Thou shall not send a famine into a poor country that kills 5 million innocent children of starvation.

2. Thou shall not send a pestilence into a poor country that kills 5 million innocent children of diarrhea.

3. Thou shall not send earthquakes, tidal waves, and typhoons into poor countries that kill 5 million innocent children.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Thank you for your reply.
First, Armageddon is the War to end all wars - Psalms 46:9
Scripture teaches that 'Jesus' is the way, the truth, and the life.
That places Jesus as the one to follow if one wants everlasting life.
Jesus is the one who will separate people at the coming Time of Separation as found at Matthew 25:31-33,37,40.
So, we are Not the judge as to who will end up as a figurative humble 'sheep' or haughty 'goat'.
In Scripture Jesus can read hearts. Scripture teaches it's the wicked to be 'destroyed forever'- Psalms 92:7; 104:35.

So if a person at the time of Armageddon hasn't heard about your message, they would be exempt from destruction? Same with people who are not against JW's but do not believe?