One of my first year courses at University was in the Philosophy Dept, and entitled, 'Introduction to Logic'. I got a stanine 9, as it was ridiculously easy. Has it actually morphed into a synonym for 'IMHO' ? lol
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It is Logical
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
One of my first year courses at University was in the Philosophy Dept, and entitled, 'Introduction to Logic'. I got a stanine 9, as it was ridiculously easy. Has it actually morphed into a synonym for 'IMHO' ? lol
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
I suspect the OP is looking for choir members.
It's a quartet.
Logically then, you would be very in tune with pure logic.
If we stand and gaze at creation, do we see that it has no source of intelligence?
Regards Tony
exchemist
Veteran Member
What a load of smug, meaningless ballocks.
Hi Tony! Belated Happy New Year!
Lack of intelligence does not create? What creates snowflakes, for example? Or the Himalayas? Or the tides? Didn't the stars, including our sun, didn't the planets, moons and asteroids, form from the accretion of material by the constant attraction of not-particularly-thoughtful gravity? And doesn't gravity define the nature and shape of the solar system, not to mention the galaxies?
Logically speaking, that is?
McBell
Resident Sourpuss
um...
The Ultimate Absolute Intelligence did those things....
That is a long drawn out more impressive looking version of "GodDidIt"
Which of course is perfectly logical.
Especially if you use the OP as you example of "logically"
What a load of smug, meaningless ballocks.
Logically, given the diversity of mind in this age, that was also an expected answer.
Regards Tony
A great and happy new year to you as well blu2
The combination of elements creates, the decomposition of those elements is death, or decay.
Logically it is an intelligent system that combines those elements into the given form we see.
This is an extract from an explanation about creation, it gives some answers;
"... Nay, earthly and heavenly, material and spiritual, accidental and essential, particular and universal, structure and foundation, appearance and reality and the essence of all things, both inward and outward -- all of these are connected one with another and are interrelated in such a manner that you will find that drops are patterned after seas, and that atoms are structured after suns in proportion to their capacities and potentialities. For particulars in relation to what is below them are universals, and what are great universals in the sight of those whose eyes are veiled are in fact particulars in relation to the realities and beings which are superior to them. Universal and particular are in reality incidental and relative considerations. The mercy of thy Lord, verily, encompasseth all things!
Know then that the all-embracing framework that governs existence includes within its compass every existent being - particular or universal - whether outwardly or inwardly, secretly or openly. Just as particulars are infinite in number, so also universals, on the material plane, and the great realities of the universe are without number and beyond computation. The Dawning Places of Unity, the Daysprings of Singleness and the Suns of Holiness are also sanctified beyond the bounds of number, and the luminous spiritual worlds are exalted above limits and restrictions. In like manner the worlds of bodily existence the mind of no man can reckon nor the understanding of the learned comprehend. Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.'.... "
Regards Tony
exchemist
Veteran Member
There is little or no logic in what you write.Logically, given the diversity of mind in this age, that was also an expected answer.
Regards Tony
If we stand and gaze at creation, we are unable "logically" to determine whether any intelligence, pure or otherwise, has been involved in it. It's just rubbish. Same with the rest of it.
Well, as per the OP, there is advice that if we study nature can give us all the answers.
That we may not be logical enough to find those answers, is the point of this discussion.
It is up to you if you ask the questions, or not.
An example of what can be found;
"....In the ocean he findeth a drop, in a drop he beholdeth the secrets of the sea.
Split the atom’s heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun
He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest...........And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love... "
How did an ancient poet know what was in an atom
Regards Tony
exchemist
Veteran Member
What ancient poet was that, then? It seems to come from the c.19th, which is hardly ancient. Also "finding a sun" indicates nothing.Well, as per the OP, there is advice that if we study nature can give us all the answers.
That we may not be logical enough to find those answers, is the point of this discussion.
It is up to you if you ask the questions, or not.
An example of what can be found;
"....In the ocean he findeth a drop, in a drop he beholdeth the secrets of the sea.
Split the atom’s heart, and lo!
Within it thou wilt find a sun
He beholdeth justice in injustice, and in justice, grace. In ignorance he findeth many a knowledge hidden, and in knowledge a myriad wisdoms manifest...........And if he meeteth with injustice he shall have patience, and if he cometh upon wrath he shall manifest love... "
How did an ancient poet know what was in an atom
Regards Tony
And why do you insist on quoting in cod-Jacobean English?
Thanks for that. My unsurprising one-liner is that Occam's razor says the phenomena of nature are at least as explicable without the postulation of a supervising intelligent entity.A great and happy new year to you as well blu2
The combination of elements creates, the decomposition of those elements is death, or decay.
Logically it is an intelligent system that combines those elements into the given form we see.
This is an extract from an explanation about creation, it gives some answers;
"... Nay, earthly and heavenly, material and spiritual, accidental and essential, particular and universal, structure and foundation, appearance and reality and the essence of all things, both inward and outward -- all of these are connected one with another and are interrelated in such a manner that you will find that drops are patterned after seas, and that atoms are structured after suns in proportion to their capacities and potentialities. For particulars in relation to what is below them are universals, and what are great universals in the sight of those whose eyes are veiled are in fact particulars in relation to the realities and beings which are superior to them. Universal and particular are in reality incidental and relative considerations. The mercy of thy Lord, verily, encompasseth all things!
Know then that the all-embracing framework that governs existence includes within its compass every existent being - particular or universal - whether outwardly or inwardly, secretly or openly. Just as particulars are infinite in number, so also universals, on the material plane, and the great realities of the universe are without number and beyond computation. The Dawning Places of Unity, the Daysprings of Singleness and the Suns of Holiness are also sanctified beyond the bounds of number, and the luminous spiritual worlds are exalted above limits and restrictions. In like manner the worlds of bodily existence the mind of no man can reckon nor the understanding of the learned comprehend. Consider the following well-known tradition and examine its meanings indicative of the vastness of the cosmos and its awesome limitless expanse: 'God, exalted be He, fashioned one hundred thousand, thousand lamps and suspended the Throne, the earth, the heavens and whatsoever is between them, even Heaven and Hell -- all of these in a single lamp. And only God knows what is in the rest of the lamps.'.... "
Regards Tony
Go well!
It was an ancient poem, quoted in the 19th Century, most likely from this poet of the 18th century.
Hatef Esfahani - Wikipedia
All the best, regards Tony
Sorry, but I find no logic at all in what you've written.
Logically creation is founded in pure Intelligence, because lack of intelligence does not create. Lots of things are created without intelligence. Craters on the moon or earth, mountains (either volcanic or caused by crustal plates being thrust together. The beautiful, serpentine patterns of rivers, and after that, oxbow lakes. The list is literally endless.
Logically we would be guided, if there is a creative Intelligence that wants to guide us. Don't see why. There are people right here on RF who would like to "guide" others (sometimes known as proselytizing), and many of us choose not to be so guided. Even you do, since you are not being convinced to give up your beliefs in favour of others to which some members would guide you.
Logically that guidance would be made known unto us and Logically the guidance would offer what that intelligence wants us to know.
Logically we would have been given the abilities to find that guidance and see if it offers the answers.
Logically the answers were given before we make any mistakes. If there were an entity that wished us to know something, and had the power to make it known to us, that might be true. It does not seem true, however, that this would be rendered in so many disparate ways that we wind up with a history of 100,000 belief systems that categorically disagree (to the point of war and murder) with one another.
Or perhaps the entity is just hoplessly incompetent.
Logically that Pure Intelligence is what history has shown us to be God and the solutions can be found in what we know are Messages from God. Even if I hadn't argued that "Pure intelligence" out of existence, that would still be nothing but conjecture -- and conjecture based on a very obvious error. And that error is in assuming that what some obviously human person tells you is a "Message from God," you have no particular reason to suppose that they are speaking for God, and not for themselves. And it doesn't make a bit of difference whether their motives are saintly or venal.
Logically, we can find the answers. We can seek answers, and sometimes we might find them. But we also might not. It is not out of the realm of probability that this species will annihilate itself and much of the rest of life on this planet before too much time has elapsed.
So think of an Issue the world now faces. Are we able to find a solution given by a source of pure intelligence? If the solution is "given by a source of pure intelligence," why would we need to "find" it? Just using it would seem much more reasonable. But of course, such solutions are not given -- not ever, so far as I can see -- and the result is that we often find imperfect solutions. Ending a war by the creation of weapons of mass destruction may well be one of them. Feeding a world through genetic engineering may be another, or Strong artificial intelligence.
Give it a go, think of an issue, is there an answer already given? Well? Is there?
Of course there is, Logically I would not start such a post if the answers were no available.
As truth is relative, some may not see that they are the answers.
Regards Tony
Hey Tony,
Happy New Year.
I am curious about this notion that an entity described by many as omniscient and omnipotent ( I don't know if that is what you envision) needs to be worshiped in some way. This whole idea of submission, supplication, ritual worship seems to be beneath, or beyond the care of such an entity. These desires seem more to reflect what a human ruler, king, or perhaps dictator would desire.
If the relationship between this entity and humans is more like a parent child relationship, why not be more involved in our development and education? Why does everything being conveyed have to be conveyed through human intermediaries? If omnipotent, why not make its existence quite obvious, say like is described in Genesis 3:8, strolling through the garden of Eden. Simply strolling the earth from time to time would end a whole lot of speculation on this question of existence. If omnipotent, why not tell each of us directly, "Hey my son or daughter, here is my expectation for you."? Wouldn't that be what one should expect of a good parent? The entity others describe seems to be quite the absentee parent.
I'm also curious on this entities preference for masculine pronouns. Does the entity even have a gender as we do? Of course there could be more than one entity. Some people think so. If it is intuitively obvious that all this (we and the cosmos) require a creating entity, why only one? It would seem equally plausible that there could be multiple entities involved, perhaps with different specialties. But, if only one, why male? And are we made in the entities image or is the entity beyond human comprehension? I've heard it described both ways. If it is sexless, then what is the implication by its adopting masculine pronouns. I find this curious. I must say that I am warming up to the idea of a Mr. and Mrs. Entity. Kind of like Ying and Yang. Both masculine and feminine natures being expressed.
There are lots of other things that have me scratching my head, but I'll end on this. We need our intelligent creator entity for any of this, we and the cosmos, to exist. A creator is required to bring anything into existence. What leaves me puzzled is where did our intelligent creator entity come from? Who or what created it? Some say it just is and always will be. But if the entity did not need a creator, then what if matter/energy (the stuff we and the cosmos are made of) just always has been and always will be. If there was no life on this planet, I think most folks would not have a problem with that. Lifeless rocks and gas just hurdling through space. No real creator seems necessary. And really, it seems that is kind of how it was for billions of years.
But alas, there is this tricky life thing that has sprung up on this planet. That is a puzzle. And why did we humans come along so late to the party? There seems to have been a whole lot of living going on before we even came on the scene. Billions of years of it. It is almost as if we were an afterthought, or maybe not even the point. No that couldn't be, since we are too cool for that. Pretty sure it has all been about us, right? Although the cosmos does seem rather indifferent to life in general. Species come and species go.
Anyway, just some of the things I think about when someone reminds me how logical an intelligent creator entity is.
Regards,
Mike
Happy New Year.
I am curious about this notion that an entity described by many as omniscient and omnipotent ( I don't know if that is what you envision) needs to be worshiped in some way. This whole idea of submission, supplication, ritual worship seems to be beneath, or beyond the care of such an entity. These desires seem more to reflect what a human ruler, king, or perhaps dictator would desire.
If the relationship between this entity and humans is more like a parent child relationship, why not be more involved in our development and education? Why does everything being conveyed have to be conveyed through human intermediaries? If omnipotent, why not make its existence quite obvious, say like is described in Genesis 3:8, strolling through the garden of Eden. Simply strolling the earth from time to time would end a whole lot of speculation on this question of existence. If omnipotent, why not tell each of us directly, "Hey my son or daughter, here is my expectation for you."? Wouldn't that be what one should expect of a good parent? The entity others describe seems to be quite the absentee parent.
I'm also curious on this entities preference for masculine pronouns. Does the entity even have a gender as we do? Of course there could be more than one entity. Some people think so. If it is intuitively obvious that all this (we and the cosmos) require a creating entity, why only one? It would seem equally plausible that there could be multiple entities involved, perhaps with different specialties. But, if only one, why male? And are we made in the entities image or is the entity beyond human comprehension? I've heard it described both ways. If it is sexless, then what is the implication by its adopting masculine pronouns. I find this curious. I must say that I am warming up to the idea of a Mr. and Mrs. Entity. Kind of like Ying and Yang. Both masculine and feminine natures being expressed.
There are lots of other things that have me scratching my head, but I'll end on this. We need our intelligent creator entity for any of this, we and the cosmos, to exist. A creator is required to bring anything into existence. What leaves me puzzled is where did our intelligent creator entity come from? Who or what created it? Some say it just is and always will be. But if the entity did not need a creator, then what if matter/energy (the stuff we and the cosmos are made of) just always has been and always will be. If there was no life on this planet, I think most folks would not have a problem with that. Lifeless rocks and gas just hurdling through space. No real creator seems necessary. And really, it seems that is kind of how it was for billions of years.
But alas, there is this tricky life thing that has sprung up on this planet. That is a puzzle. And why did we humans come along so late to the party? There seems to have been a whole lot of living going on before we even came on the scene. Billions of years of it. It is almost as if we were an afterthought, or maybe not even the point. No that couldn't be, since we are too cool for that. Pretty sure it has all been about us, right? Although the cosmos does seem rather indifferent to life in general. Species come and species go.
Anyway, just some of the things I think about when someone reminds me how logical an intelligent creator entity is.
Regards,
Mike
Happy Gregorian New Year and good afternoon MikeF.
My new year is March 21st.
You are 100% correct, the intelligence does not need us, it is entirely 100% for our benefit, this advice has been given.
There is ample logic as to why we have been created in such a way, it takes quite a few years of study to read and consider that validity of all that logic.
Basically the intelligence is timeless, it knows the beginning that has no beginning and knows the end that has no end. What we are given is a chance to find our potential. That potential requires us to have choices.
That ties into the entire purpose of creation and the evolution of species. Yes elements are combined and they also disperse in a given set way to suit the environment they are in. There is muchogic written on this now.
Human life on this planet is very ancient, well before any records we have yet discovered.
That is great, the more we think, the more we discover. All the best Mike
Regards Tony