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!! It Doesn't Matter - They're All The Same !!

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
It’s a crazy time we live in. Trump and his followers say “MAGA- make America great again. Then those who hate Trump, hate the MAGA concept. I think what we are really seeing is a lot of theater where both sides are being manipulated and stirred up against one another as a big distraction...because the real intent is to take America down.
I am not cheering, but I know we are witnessing the demise of the U.S.

I hate the MAGA concept because it smacks of empty nationalism and harkens back to a time of racism, sexism, and xenophobia. It's a slogan from a shyster, and has nothing to do with making America great.

There's a lot of theater from both sides, certainly, but one side is cheerleading for restricted civil rights and authoritarian ideals while the other side has actually made some gains (if small or slow going) towards environmental health and civil liberties.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Then those who hate Trump, hate the MAGA concept.
Could it be we laugh at and spit on these pathetic ideas of glorifying and romanticizing the past? Guess what? The past is the past. You don't do it again, you just do it, and it is beyond foolish to think America can do it as it is or with any sort of Conservative or religious agenda. They are stepping in between healthcare providers and patients, they are ensuring more guns on are on the streets, they needlessly prevent adoption, they are gutting necessary programs that help reduce poverty and crime, they even didn't a single damn their Covid response was very deadly and highly detrimental to others (like healthcare workers and patients of accidents and other diseases).
Could it be we hate the fact they are a party of death and destruction?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Do you know what is so truly hateful about MAGA? It's not that it's wrong to cheer one's own town, or state, or country. It's not that it's wrong to try and take care of what you care about and love. It's forgetting that we must do MORE than that!

Technology has made our world TOO SMALL. If we can't learn to be humans first, then Americans or Canadians or Chinese or Russians or Tanzanians after that, then because we have given ourselves the means to cause the end of the human experiment on earth, we are very, very likely to do it. Along with millions of other species, too, through no fault of their own.

We have nowhere to go yet -- and we won't for a very long time.

Thus speaks the Humanist.

Yes, technology has made this world smaller as people are more connected around the globe. I believe we must be concerned about those beyond our town, state, and country. That’s why, although I am grateful for the blessings I’ve experienced in the US, I am not into MAGA. I appreciate the United State‘s strengths and freedoms, but am under no delusion concerning the faults. In the larger, eternal scheme of things there is so much more to consider because this world is not our home; it’s temporary and passing away, according to the biblical scriptures.

That is my eternal perspective.

And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

Revelation 5:9
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Could it be we laugh at and spit on these pathetic ideas of glorifying and romanticizing the past? Guess what? The past is the past. You don't do it again, you just do it, and it is beyond foolish to think America can do it as it is or with any sort of Conservative or religious agenda. They are stepping in between healthcare providers and patients, they are ensuring more guns on are on the streets, they needlessly prevent adoption, they are gutting necessary programs that help reduce poverty and crime, they even didn't a single damn their Covid response was very deadly and highly detrimental to others (like healthcare workers and patients of accidents and other diseases).
Could it be we hate the fact they are a party of death and destruction?
So much hate, so many problems, so much death and destruction. Sounds like we need a Savior. I sure don’t think it will be a Democrat, Republican or any other politician.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What are really all the same are the wearisome useless Trump bashing threads.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This is exactly the kind of thing that many of us in Europe see as evidence that the Republican party has given up on democracy. The next presidential election will be a very precarious moment for the Republic.

I think the primary mistake that many people seem to be making here is when they appear to be more focused on party politics than on the larger situation at hand. It's either one party or the other party.

But at the end of the day, either party is merely a reflection of its membership. There appear to be sharp divides within the Republican Party, although the root problem within America today is not due to one party or the other.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
So much hate, so many problems, so much death and destruction. Sounds like we need a Savior. I sure don’t think it will be a Democrat, Republican or any other politician.
We don't need a savior, for it can only be us who saves us. No where has necessary changes happened without group efforts to see it through. Such as, Dr. King would have achieved nothing if he spoke to empty rooms and Thomas Paine would be unknown if his words didn't move others.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you know what is so truly hateful about MAGA? It's not that it's wrong to cheer one's own town, or state, or country. It's not that it's wrong to try and take care of what you care about and love. It's forgetting that we must do MORE than that!

Technology has made our world TOO SMALL. If we can't learn to be humans first, then Americans or Canadians or Chinese or Russians or Tanzanians after that, then because we have given ourselves the means to cause the end of the human experiment on earth, we are very, very likely to do it. Along with millions of other species, too, through no fault of their own.

We have nowhere to go yet -- and we won't for a very long time.

Thus speaks the Humanist.

I think the trouble with Americans (as it has been for quite some time) is that we can't figure out what we want to do with ourselves. We can't figure out what we want to be. We seem to still want to be the leader and defender of the free world, however small it may have become due to technology.

America is also, overall, a wealthy and powerful country, and some Americans seem to revel in that as a source of national pride. But as far as the root wealth, land, and resources which ultimately made America into a great power - that history complicates things a bit, as it does for other wealthy Western powers which acquired their wealth through questionable means.

Of course now, after the Western powers gained so much power and wealth, our political culture has tended towards a more liberal and compassionate consciousness, along with a more robust and often militant attitude in support of individual liberties and civil rights. But the problem is that, liberal or no, wealthy and powerful people still want to remain so. Even if some might be more tolerant, compassionate, liberal, or generous towards others, they will still not give up the keys to the kingdom, not under any circumstances.

I think that's the trap that we're in, at present. We're in a position where we either have to move forward or turn back, but we can't remain where we currently are.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I think the primary mistake that many people seem to be making here is when they appear to be more focused on party politics than on the larger situation at hand. It's either one party or the other party.

But at the end of the day, either party is merely a reflection of its membership. There appear to be sharp divides within the Republican Party, although the root problem within America today is not due to one party or the other.
What do you think the root problem is that makes the Republican party give up on democracy? What is the drive that is so powerful it makes the party willing to throw away that tradition and try to secure power by illegitimate means?
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
Just for context, to put this in the proper historical setting, in case someone comes back and looks at this thread years from now.

I could do with the context now! Who has said "It doesn't matter..." ? ( I realise everyone else posting here understands but hey...)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
What do you think the root problem is that makes the Republican party give up on democracy? What is the drive that is so powerful it makes the party willing to throw away that tradition and try to secure power by illegitimate means?
Having power is more important than having ethics.

The people that seek positions of power are exactly the people that should never be given any power. Humanity really needs to learn this lesson, and soon.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
But it's better for us, then the snake like approach Obama pulled and created ISIS as if he didn't and people still not aware that most of those he trained and gave weapons (as "moderates" fighting Assad) to ended up in ISIS.

I thought the cause of this loss was due to the inability of freedom fighters, whose training or lack of was not enough against Assad.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
What do you think the root problem is that makes the Republican party give up on democracy? What is the drive that is so powerful it makes the party willing to throw away that tradition and try to secure power by illegitimate means?

Well, consider how America was founded, our history and how we acquired such wealth and power. They're not necessarily giving up on democracy as much as they're wanting to revert back to an earlier version of it. In that sense, they're not throwing away tradition; they're embracing it.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
There's a vast vast difference between "they're all imperfect"....
Now you're flirting with being accused of "False equivalency!".
To address faults of both opposing candidates is wrong cuz
the other side (your side, not mine) is always so much worse.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Well, consider how America was founded, our history and how we acquired such wealth and power. They're not necessarily giving up on democracy as much as they're wanting to revert back to an earlier version of it. In that sense, they're not throwing away tradition; they're embracing it.
Yes, the version of it where government lets the wealthy capitalists do whatever they please. The America that led to the rise of the robber barons and the Great Depression. The America that used children to do factory work. The America that choked on pollution and working class poverty. The America of 'Jim Crow'. That's the America the Republican Party are working hard to return us to.

Certainly not to the America that created social security and unemployment insurance. Or public assistance or Medicare. Or the America that had strong labor unions and good wages, and lots of jobs producing real goods and services. That's definitely not the America they want to return to. The one in which the wealthy paid a significant share of taxes and where monopoly was illegal, and so was bribing state and federal legislators. They certainly don't want to return to that democratic socialist hell-scape! No sir!
 
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Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, the version of it where government lets the wealthy capitalists do whatever they please. The America that led to the rise of the robber barons and the Great Depression. The America that used children to do factory work. The America that choked on pollution and working class poverty. The America of 'Jim Crow'. That's the America the Republican Party are working hard to return us to.

Certainly not to the America that created social security and unemployment insurance. Or public assistance or Medicare. Or the America that had strong labor unions and good wages, and lots of jobs producing real goods and services. That's definitely not the America they want to return to. The one in which the wealthy paid a significant share of taxes and where monopoly was illegal, and so was bribing state and federal legislators. They certainly don't want to return to that democratic socialist hell-scape! No sir!

Yep, that pretty much sums it up. I think the question we need to ask ourselves is why.

Sure, it's easy to say that the Republicans are bad people (because they are), but why do Democrats seem to be facing such an uphill struggle against them these days? Why is this election not a slam dunk?

Is it because the Republicans are such brilliant thinkers and orators that they're able to convince millions of people that their way is right? Or is it because the Democrats themselves have become ideologically and economically compromised, having acquired their wealth through the same ways and means as you describe here?
 
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