Israelis and Palestinians can’t go on like this. Weep for us.

[Harel13]

Yes, I feel comfortable being critical of military killings of civilians regardless of where they stand or with what religious belief they seek to justify their atrocities.

Really? I hadn't noticed.

Hopefully that is not a problem for your identity

I don't see why that would be, given our continuous debates in recent days.

but to be fair, even if it was, it wouldn't bother me all too much.

Good for you, sticking to your principles. I do that as well.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

However, in my view, and this is also the view currently held by the government of Israel, were we to never fire upon areas with civilians, we would never be able to stop Hamas, being that they shrewdly and despicably always surround themselves with civilians.

That's a pretty horrible thing, and I'm sorry that anyone the region has to deal with that, but I am reminded of the afghanistan/iraq situation with american tactics back after 9/11. They talked about that as well, and it seemed like I read often about the restrictions that our american forces underwent because of the civilian proximity issue, which I think might explain why they would go through objectives building by building or area by area, and the whole 'hearts and minds' idea. I want to say that if this was case, though we did seem to 'lose,' a more indiscriminate position doesn't seem like it would be as just. Not that I think the invasion itself was really warranted or effective anyway

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hamas is guilty of many more attacks than Israel, but they are largely ineffective. When Israel strikes back there is a high price to pay. They are very efficient at killing the "enemy" and anyone close to them.

Both sides are losing right now. There is no winning in the current approach of both sides.

 

[Poisonshady313]

What would you say was the military purpose behind attacking a hospital?

I have my own theory, but I'd like to hear yours first.

Without relying on either religious or ideological beliefs, upon seeing this picture with this headline, here are the questions that come to mind:

Is this image actually from Gaza? (I have seen instances where destruction in Israel caused by Palestinians was given a headline to make it appear to be destruction by Israel in Gaza. Also, I have seen instances where destruction by Syrians in Syria was given a headline to make it appear to be destruction by Israel in Gaza.)

Is this image actually related to the current situation? (I have seen instances where destruction in Gaza in the past was given a headline to make it appear to be destruction in Gaza in the present.)

IF the answer to the above two questions are "yes",

Are we sure that the destruction wasn't caused by an errant Hamas missile that fell far short of its intended mark?

Are we sure that the destruction wasn't staged/caused by an intentional Hamas missile in an effort to blame it on Israel?

IF the answer to the above two questions are "yes",

Given a historical tendency for Palestinians to do things like transporting fighters/weapons in ambulances and to use hospitals and schools as weapons storage/rocket launching sites/military HQ, it would only be fair to start from the possibility that this is what's happening here.

If this is NOT the case, then given Israel's history of calling off strikes, even after deploying the weapon, if they were able to spot Palestinian civilians, especially children, one would have to consider whether it might have been an accident.

I have to go through an awful lot of effort answering an awful lot of questions before even beginning to suggest the possibility that Israel purposefully and maliciously attacked a Gazan hospital, because several decades of this conflict show that this is unlikely.

 

[Lyndon]

oh brother!!

 

[Kooky]

Without relying on either religious or ideological beliefs, upon seeing this picture with this headline, here are the questions that come to mind:

Is this image actually from Gaza? (I have seen instances where destruction in Israel caused by Palestinians was given a headline to make it appear to be destruction by Israel in Gaza. Also, I have seen instances where destruction by Syrians in Syria was given a headline to make it appear to be destruction by Israel in Gaza.)

Is this image actually related to the current situation? (I have seen instances where destruction in Gaza in the past was given a headline to make it appear to be destruction in Gaza in the present.)

IF the answer to the above two questions are "yes",

Are we sure that the destruction wasn't caused by an errant Hamas missile that fell far short of its intended mark?

Are we sure that the destruction wasn't staged/caused by an intentional Hamas missile in an effort to blame it on Israel?

IF the answer to the above two questions are "yes",

Given a historical tendency for Palestinians to do things like transporting fighters/weapons in ambulances and to use hospitals and schools as weapons storage/rocket launching sites/military HQ, it would only be fair to start from the possibility that this is what's happening here.

If this is NOT the case, then given Israel's history of calling off strikes, even after deploying the weapon, if they were able to spot Palestinian civilians, especially children, one would have to consider whether it might have been an accident.

I have to go through an awful lot of effort answering an awful lot of questions before even beginning to suggest the possibility that Israel purposefully and maliciously attacked a Gazan hospital, because several decades of this conflict show that this is unlikely.

I have no way to corrobate this information further, except to trust that Doctors Without Borders, an international humanitarian organization, are not deliberately spreading misinfornation, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Do you have ways to back up your claim that "Palestinians [...] things like transporting fighters/weapons in ambulances and to use hospitals and schools as weapons storage/rocket launching sites/military HQ", by anything other than the one-sided, self-serving claims of the IDF's PR department?

So far, several international humanitarian organizations have reported children killed or missing in the air strikes, so I am calling your claim of "Israel's history of calling off strikes, even after deploying the weapon, if they were able to spot Palestinian civilians, especially children" into question here.

 

[Kooky]

Both sides are losing right now. There is no winning in the current approach of both sides.

You say that, but so far, it seems that Israel has achieved its goals of preventing an anti-Netanyahu coalition from taking shape by driving a wedge between Arab and Jewish Israeli political parties (thus stalling the further prosecution of his corruption charges), has discredited Hamas as a credible threat to their security, further undermined Fatah's authority in West Bank, and garnered enough sympathy among Western governments to maintain its crucial supply of international developmental and military aid.

 

[rosends]

I have no way to corrobate this information further, except to trust that Doctors Without Borders, an international humanitarian organization, are not spreading political propagana, either intentionally or unintentionally.

Do you have ways to back up your claim that "Palestinians [...] things like transporting fighters/weapons in ambulances and to use hospitals and schools as weapons storage/rocket launching sites/military HQ", by anything other than the one-sided, self-serving claims of the IDF's PR department?

So far, several international humanitarian organizations have reported children killed or missing in the air strikes, so I am calling your claim of "Israel's history of calling off strikes, even after deploying the weapon, if they were able to spot Palestinian civilians, especially children" into question here.

I guess it depends what sources you choose to believe. DWB is not a group I think is reliable.

UN admits Palestinians fired rockets from UNRWA schools - UN Watch

UN report outlines how Hamas used kids as human shields

 

[Harel13]

Do you have ways to back up your claim that "Palestinians [...] things like transporting fighters/weapons in ambulances and to use hospitals and schools as weapons storage/rocket launching sites/military HQ", by anything other than the one-sided, self-serving claims of the IDF's PR department?

Just some random sources:

The Use of Palestinian Ambulances as Weapons of Terror
Israel catches weapons-smuggling ambulance
DEFINE_ME
Bomb found in Red Crescent ambulance

 

[Kooky]

Just some random sources:

The Use of Palestinian Ambulances as Weapons of Terror
Israel catches weapons-smuggling ambulance
DEFINE_ME
Bomb found in Red Crescent ambulance

So, we have evidence of ambulances being used as a method to smuggle weapons, but nothing about "hospitals and schools" being used "as weapons storage/rocket launching sites/military HQ".

 

[Harel13]

So, we have evidence of ambulances being used as a method to smuggle weapons, but nothing about "hospitals and schools" being used "as weapons storage/rocket launching sites/military HQ". So there is so far no evidence at hand that would justify the IDF targetting schools and hospitals.

Ah, my mistake. Should've just quoted the first bit of your post. Didn't look for sources for the other things.

 

[Kooky]

Ah, my mistake. Should've just quoted the first bit of your post. Didn't look for sources for the other things.

It still does not justify the moral calculus that you seem to be using here:
Because the IDF claims that Hamas may use an unspecified number of hospitals to clandestinely stockpile weapons or ammunition, this makes all hospitals valid military targets and the patients located within an acceptable casualty in war.

By the same logic, using your evidence for ambulances smuggling weapon, every ambulance in Israel could freely be targeted by IDF or Israeli police, their drivers exexuted without mercy, and the entire vehicle destroyed pre-emptively, just on the off chance that it may potentially have been used by Palestine gun runners.

Do you agree with this assessment? Are ambulances valid targets of military attacks because an unspecified number could potentially have been used to smuggle guns for the enemy?

 

[Harel13]

It still does not justify the moral calculus that you seem to be using here:
Because the IDF claims that Hamas may use an unspecified number of hospitals to clandestinely stockpile weapons or ammunition, this makes all hospitals valid military targets and the patients located within an acceptable casualty in war.

No, it doesn't. But when a hospital is destroyed, it should still raise a red flag, seeing as the IDF has yet to implement an "Operation Destroy All Hospitals".

 

[Kooky]

No, it doesn't. But when a hospital is destroyed, it should still raise a red flag, seeing as the IDF has yet to implement an "Operation Destroy All Hospitals".

And that red flag is "there are people who will defend literally anything the IDF does, no matter how atrocious and indefensible, because they have a vested interest in being uncritically supportive of their actions".

Do you believe that Israeli bombs and bullets only ever kill bad guys, or do you grant that the IDF also causes civilian casualties?

 

[Harel13]

Do you believe that Israeli bombs and bullets only ever kill bad guys, or do you grant that the IDF also causes civilian casualties?

You know that "bad guys" isn't the opposite of "civilian(s)", right?

 

[Kooky]

You know that "bad guys" isn't the opposite of "civilian(s)", right?

And how is that supposed to relate to the issue under discussion?

 

[Harel13]

And how is that supposed to relate to the issue under discussion?

If we go by what you define in your previous post, a civilian that masterminds a terror attack, or even "merely" assists in implementing it should not be killed, being a "civilian" and not a "bad guy" (=military).

 

[Kooky]

If we go by what you define in your previous post, a civilian that masterminds a terror attack, or even "merely" assists in implementing it should not be killed, being a "civilian" and not a "bad guy" (=military).

You went into this discussion under the premise that the IDF does not deliberately target civilians and any potential or actual civilian losses must be either a Hamas lie or a regrettable accident; and now you turn around and try to argue that killing civilians is morally justified, after all?

Consider this: If we hold that killing civilians is not in principle immoral, then we can't condemn Hamas for it, either, unless we desire to be massive hypocrites rooting for one side for completely extramoral reasons.

 

[Harel13]

You went into this discussion under the premise that the IDF does not deliberately target civilians and any potential or actual civilian losses must be either a Hamas lie or a regrettable accident; and now you turn around and try to argue that killing civilians is morally justified, after all?

Not argue that killing civilians is morally justified, don't be ridiculous. Merely that even among civilians there are "bad guys", as you call them. I do not point at every dead Gazan and say: He deserved it. However, if intel were made public that a certain person was actually actively assisting Hamas, his killing would be justified.

 

[Kooky]

Not argue that killing civilians is morally justified, don't be ridiculous. Merely that even among civilians there are "bad guys", as you call them. I do not point at every dead Gazan and say: He deserved it. However, if intel were made public that a certain person was actually actively assisting Hamas, his killing would be justified.

Then you do believe killing civilians is morally justified, you just require military PR departments to do a little extra work in order to justify their killing. (Needless to say, I never trust a military source when it claims that such-and-such civilian killing was justified. For the record, I also do not think there is any moral justification to be had for the victims of Hamas' rocket attacks - but, it should also be on the record that neither Hamas nor their supporters so far have even tried to invent flimsy excuses to justify child murder.)