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Israeli Cabinet passes loyalty bill, Arabs angry

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It doesn't make a difference if Israel is secular or not, it is not your business to decide that, worry about the country you live in.

Do you really mean that?

Majority of the countries in the world have kicked Jews out

Which countries, and how long ago? Unless you mean European nations, and mostly some centuries ago, that is a great exageration.

and the same people complain that Israel has no right to be there, are you serious?

That is another exageration, you know. Most anti-zionists are more worried about the Palestinian's rights than with anything else.

should we Jews just stop to exist? what would you do without all those Mendeleyevs, Einsteins, Baruch Blumbergs, Landaus and so on? still live in a cave?;)

Get a life man.

AFAIK Einstein never even lived in Israel, and he even declined an invitation to yield political powe there. Apparently Jews can live and thrive outside Israel. In fact, it seems that not too many that live abroad even want to move to Israel.

And really, why would they?
 

Midnight Pete

Well-Known Member
We probably should. Just to clarify, it is not as much that I propose a global government as that I think the idea of national governments is obsolete in various ways. On the one hand no one much trusts his own government anymore, and on the other the world has become much smaller than it used to be.

Some sort of tree-like political and administrative arrangement is probably called for, with a government that is considerably empowered at a neighborhood level and has progressively less clout the further up the ladder it gets.

Of course, that can only happen if and when the citizens decide that they want it.

Who would trust a one-world government if they don't trust national government?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
then let those thousands of people demand home, who's stopping them?

Existing governments too, of course, but mainly practical considerations. It is not feasible or even truly desirable for any and all people to have their own "pure" governments and nations. That is the one lesson we all should have learned from World War I (and to a lesser degree, WW II as well).

We bombed the hell out of Kosovo to give the land to those to who it doesn't belong and no body is complaining

Excuse me, what are you talking about here?

but you seem to have moral problems with Israel being there,

Not as such. I do have a big problem with its militarist stance, of course. Which I guess amounts to much the same, since there is no reason to expect it to change.

for some reason I'm not surprised,

Why would you expect to be surprised?

You shouldn't. The Israeli responsibility for its warfare acts should be recognized, that much is crystal clear.

speaking of morals if Europeans and all those who think like you would act as human beings towards Jews there wouldn't be a need for a Jewish home land,

I don't believe there is such a need anymore, anyway. Israel would probably be a good idea some centuries ago. But these days the Jewish People are better off moving abroad, generally speaking. The days when they were mistreated in "foreign" territory are long past.

how dare you say that Jews do not deserve a home land?

No one "deserves" a "home land". Land just is, people live in it. Everything beyond that is just a bunch of political constructs that needs to eventually deal with the inescapable reality that land is a finite resource; that there is no objective or practical way of separating people from each other into so-called home lands; and that it is a bad idea in the first place, since it would only reinforce ethnic and national rivalities and mistrust.

are trying to right off 6million innocent people?

No. I am trying to encourage people to think rationally and avoid shameful, pointless bloodshed.

did you forget what your ancestors did for the past 2000 years as not enough for us to demand a home?

Sure, big time. Neither do I feel responsible for what my ancestors supposedly did 2000 years ago, nor to I see how any people could ever legitimally make claims for a home land.

Unless, I suppose, it is some sort of native people such as the Inuit or the Xavantes. The Jewish People might have qualified once upon a time, but they have been very cosmopolitan for literally millenia now. Time to move on already.

you compliantly crossed the line having guts to come here and claim that everything is fine?

Pardon me, what are you talking about again?

Get this fact straight, when all of you haters

Who? I'm hardly a "hater". I wish well of the Jewish People. I just don't accept the excuse of having a homeland as justification for so many decades of violent acts.

finally learn that Jews are people just like everybody else then we might have a descent conversation but if you can't get it inside your head perhaps use a nail.

Do you really believe that "everybody else" is entitled to a homeland? I'm sure there are a lot of Palestinians who would welcome to know that.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I think a world-state would have the same problems that nation-states do. Just multiplied.

True enough. That is why those troubles should be addressed. I propose doing so by largely stripping it of true power, making it somewhat like a bureaucratic office, and a heavily watched one at that.

True power would ideally be employed at a very local level and basically communicated higher up.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Do you really believe that "everybody else" is entitled to a homeland? I'm sure there are a lot of Palestinians who would welcome to know that.


Mmmmmmyah -I think they call it "PALESTINE"

Palestine -as we know it today -came into existence essentially as a response to the creation of the Israeli state.

From Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ...

On the same day that the State of Israel was announced, the Arab League announced that it would set up a single Arab civil administration throughout Palestine,[186][187] and launched an attack on the new Israeli state. The All-Palestine government was declared in Gaza on 1 October 1948,[188] partly as an Arab League move to limit the influence of Transjordan over the Palestinian issue. The former mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was appointed as president. The government was recognised by Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, but not by Transjordan (later known as Jordan) or any non-Arab country.

The population of Palestine was previoously comprised of primarily Jews and Arabs.They usually got along quite well.

Arabs definitely have a "homeland" -and a pretty honkin' huge one....

From: Arab World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ...

The Arab world (Arabic: العالم العربي‎ / ISO 233: al-ʻālam al-ʻarabi) refers to Arabic-speaking countries stretching from the Atlantic Ocean in the west to the Arabian Sea in the east, and from the Mediterranean Sea in the north to the Horn of Africa and the Indian Ocean in the southeast. It consists of 25 countries and territories with a combined population of 358 million people straddling North Africa and Western Asia.

Israel is a speck of dust in comparison. It's not as if they need more room.

arabworld.jpg
 
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dust1n

Zindīq
I never said there wouldn't be anger or resentment but they can either conform or get out.

I have a feeling that they will either be forced to conform or forced to get out if they choose to stay where they are.



Not really, more it's a warning of what the main priorities will be.

Yea, which you have clearly stated Jews are the main priority when **** hits the fan and everyone else would be a second-class citizen.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
How interesting that out of all 3 meanings all are hateful,...
In the context of "We pledge our allegiance to a Jewish state," yes.

...maybe lack of education on your part or have you been going to an Arab history class?

I ignore insults.

no a Jew would not take an oath to caliphate but you wouldn't even care if the caliphate would demand an oath,

Nice assumption.

...by the way caliphate in its history have demanded an oath to Islam from Jews or death.

Um.. yup, don't support that neither. For the same reason I don't support Arab-Israelis taking allegiance to a Jewish state. Pretty inconsiderate of a decent portion of a population of people. Really, the giant ghetto-making wall is pretty harsh.

The Israeli bill of oath is created to defend it's existens, you having problems with the oath Leads me to believe that you have a problem with Israels existens, why?

I don't have a problem with a oath, I have a problem with Arabs being told to pledge allegiance to a 'Jewish state'.

are you a Jew hater?

Here we go again.. :facepalm:

I suspect you are because that state came in to existens out of survival.

...isn't that true for every state?
 

Yona

Frum Mastah Flex
I have a feeling that they will either be forced to conform or forced to get out if they choose to stay where they are.

As I think another member pointed out Israel is a relatively small in comparison to it's neighbors. You have countries like Iran threatning to wipe Israel off the map, creating nuclear weapons, funding groups like Hamas. Not to mention other numerous groups and countries against the Israeli state. Oh, no, hell forbid a promise of loyalty to the Israeli state, that's totalitarianism isn't it?

Yea, which you have clearly stated Jews are the main priority when **** hits the fan and everyone else would be a second-class citizen.

If you take history into account, I say, point? 2,000 year exile not ring a bell?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
More then just Jewish? and you a man for freedom and equality can't stand that oath it is racist to you,
Yup.

where have you been for all other racist occasions through out the world?
Logical fallacy. I've been living the South. I am well aware of what racism is.

where are your concerns that you have to be Muslim to survive in Arab lands? isn't it racist?

Logical fallacy. Irrelevant to the topic. Also, I despise it just as much as I despise some of Israel's various actions.

what about the fact that a none Muslim can't enter the city of kabbah? isn't it racist and religious rules? why have you the man of freedom and equality have been silent? or has the word Jew drives the guts inside you to so much hate that you come here waisting your time constantly bashing a group of people?

Some me one time where I bashed a Jew or the Jewish people. I invite to find one example.

The pledge as you called it, yet again proves that Israel is a Jewish home land weather you like or not it is going to stay that way, anybody who lives in Israel and don't like the rules and want to destroy I repeat DESTROY Israel and Jews can get the hell out of there, go to Rome or go to Mecca.

I can't imagine anything more from the minority of Arabs, since there opinion and existence is not of importance to the Israeli state.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
It doesn't make a difference if Israel is secular or not, it is not your business to decide that, worry about the country you live in.

Um... you live in New York? :facepalm:

Majority of the countries in the world have kicked Jews out and the same people complain that Israel has no right to be there, are you serious?

Never said anything of the such.

should we Jews just stop to exist?
I hope not, I love Larry David.

what would you do without all those Mendeleyevs, Einsteins, Baruch Blumbergs, Landaus and so on? still live in a cave?;)



Get a life man.

Read a book on debate. Your quickness to judge me as if you knew what I was makes me sick.

JUDGING FAIRLY Part 3

We have thus far discussed three of the four categories of people with regard to the command to judge fairly. The first three were the righteous man, the average man, and the unrighteous man. The fourth category is the stranger, a person whom we do not know and therefore cannot ascertain his level of righteousness. Because we do not know him there is no logical way of judging his actions. Consequently there is no obligation to judge his actions favorably. Nonetheless it is commendable to give him the benefit of the doubt when he does a dubious act. It is always praiseworthy to look for a positive interpretation of the actions of others. Moreover, doing so constitutes a fulfillment of the command to love thy neighbor as yourself: This commandment tells us that we should treat and view others in the same way that we would like to be treated ourselves. We would surely want onlookers to judge our actions in a favorable light.


Jewish Values - Torah.org
 

dust1n

Zindīq
As I think another member pointed out Israel is a relatively small in comparison to it's neighbors. You have countries like Iran threatning to wipe Israel off the map, creating nuclear weapons, funding groups like Hamas. Not to mention other numerous groups and countries against the Israeli state. Oh, no, hell forbid a promise of loyalty to the Israeli state, that's totalitarianism isn't it?

Once again, I do not have a problem with anyone having a promise of loyalty to the Israeli state, it (as I have repeated many times now) is the "Jewish" state, not the Israeli state, but the Jewish state. And why would you want Arab-Israelis to leave Israel and go to Iran? Isn't that just fueling more resentment and people willing to fight for Iran?



If you take history into account, I say, point? 2,000 year exile not ring a bell?

I know this may sound crazy to you, but Jews aren't the only people who are persecuted. And personally, I don't give a damn about your 2000 year old ancestors or anyone else's for a matter. I am more concerned with living being and future generations.
 

Yona

Frum Mastah Flex
Once again, I do not have a problem with anyone having a promise of loyalty to the Israeli state, it (as I have repeated many times now) is the "Jewish" state, not the Israeli state, but the Jewish state. And why would you want Arab-Israelis to leave Israel and go to Iran? Isn't that just fueling more resentment and people willing to fight for Iran?

What are you talking about? Where did I say anything about deportation to Iran? No where, read my posts better.

I know this may sound crazy to you, but Jews aren't the only people who are persecuted. And personally, I don't give a damn about your 2000 year old ancestors or anyone else's for a matter. I am more concerned with living being and future generations.

Do you live in Israel? If no, then you're opinion is pretty meaningless. Not only this but no one is being persecuted by this bill, no one's rights are being taken away and if you don't live in Israel you're opinion doesn't mean much. Come on now.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
What are you talking about? Where did I say anything about deportation to Iran? No where, read my posts better.

Oh I see; Now I am confused as to why you even brought up Iran at all, and in conjunction with your 'conform or get out' policy, I can only assume you refer to 'getting out' as into one of those countries that you are claiming seeks Israel's destruction.

And you still addressed me in the last post incorrectly again, as my problem is the pledge to a "Jewish" state... not a pledge to Israel.

Do you live in Israel? If no, then you're opinion is pretty meaningless.
Pot, meet Kettle.

Not only this but no one is being persecuted by this bill, no one's rights are being taken away and if you don't live in Israel you're opinion doesn't mean much. Come on now.
If I take this for truth than I would have to apply it to you as well. And an Israeli has already criticized the same thing I am criticizing. In which case, I will have to go with the Israeli's opinion over yours, won't I?
 

Rakhel

Well-Known Member
And you will find Israelis who agree with with having the oath, otherwise the bill never would have passed
 
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