Israeli Cabinet passes loyalty bill, Arabs angry

[croak]

Ah, so the Cabinet did pass the bill. Can't say I'm surprised, but disappointed, sure.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It is unrealistic that every state can eventually become democratic with guaranteed human rights, a stable regulated economy that supports all, and personal liberty?

OK, I will bite.

How do you suggest we accomplish this?

 

[dust1n]

Boohoo, then they can move elsewhere. They are not being stripped of their rights, it's pretty obvious why this bill happened and they are not second-class citizen. Israel's declaration of independence states that it is a Jewish state but also it gives equal social and political rights regardless of person's race, sex and religion. You're exaggerating the situation.

No I'm not. There is anger within the minority groups within Israel... am I exaggerating this? Expect it. You stated that Israel should be for the Jewish people first and foremost... that would put everyone else as a second class citizen.

 

[Yona]

No I'm not. There is anger within the minority groups within Israel... am I exaggerating this? Expect it.

I never said there wouldn't be anger or resentment but they can either conform or get out.

You stated that Israel should be for the Jewish people first and foremost... that would put everyone else as a second class citizen.

Not really, more it's a warning of what the main priorities will be.

 

[LuisDantas]

Luis, how is this any different than Saudi Arabia? Try wearing a cross around your neck there.

I suppose that it would make people avoid me to some degree. Why is that relevant?

As for how it is different - where is Saudi Arabia employing its military, and how often? How serious are its engagements with neighbors?

I believe people should be able to run their countries as they wish.

What does that mean, however? Country is such an artificial concept, as is people. I have no idea how one would be supposed to know which country one is in, much less which of the dozens or hundreds of people that have some degree of self-identity in it would be supposed to run it.

Ultimately, I am afraid I simply see no meaning in that statement.

Thats why we have DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

Not as far as I know. Countries are nearly always inherited from historical circunstances that rarely have any current relevance, and are almost certain to lack personal significance as well.

Also, there is no such thing as a true "country of a specific people". Unless, I suppose, we restrict ourselves to Amish communities, Native People reservations, and the like. I very much doubt that any nation with more than a hundred thousand people even comes close to qualifying. Certainly not Israel. In fact, if it did, there would be no need or appeal for such a measure in the first place. Its clear intent is to approach that dystopic notion of a "land of a certain people", and it was only proposed because it is (correctly) understood to be far from the current reality.

If every country did everything the same, there would be no need for different countries.

There IS no need for different countries, of course. The very concept is of only marginal utility, and even morally questionable.

Surely your not advocating all countries to be the same are you?

Sort of. I'm not very fond of countries at all. Someday they will be forgotten and done with.

 

[LuisDantas]

Boohoo, then they can move elsewhere. They are not being stripped of their rights, it's pretty obvious why this bill happened and they are not second-class citizen. Israel's declaration of independence states that it is a Jewish state but also it gives equal social and political rights regardless of person's race, sex and religion. You're exaggerating the situation.

It is more like he is emphasizing the inherent contradiction of an explicitly Jewish state that also purports to grant everyone equal rights, don't you think?

I don't deny that the Jewish (or any other) people have a right to try and establish their own land and political authonomy. But unfortunately it does not automatically grant them the right to do as they please with the other people that might happen to live in the same territory. It is an administrative nightmare, sure, but it is still the welfare of various people that is at stake.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Sort of. I'm not very fond of countries at all. Someday they will be forgotten and done with.

Are you promoting a one world government? If so, we should start a thread. I believe it would be interesting. :yes:

 

[Yona]

It is more like he is emphasizing the inherent contradiction of an explicitly Jewish state that also purports to grant everyone equal rights, don't you think?

I don't deny that the Jewish (or any other) people have a right to try and establish their own land and political authonomy. But unfortunately it does not automatically grant them the right to do as they please with the other people that might happen to live in the same territory. It is an administrative nightmare, sure, but it is still the welfare of various people that is at stake.

What are you getting on about? It's a simple oath of loyalty to the Israeli state, that's it and not only this it was voted upon and passed through the usual channels of government.

 

[LuisDantas]

What are you getting on about? It's a simple oath of loyalty to the Israeli state, that's it and not only this it was voted upon and passed through the usual channels of government.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. I find it most unfortunate that it happened, however, and more so because apparently that oath also makes a point of linking Israel to the Jewish People.

Incidentally, I can't help but wonder what will happen to the Muslims who swear the oath without embracing Judaism. I suppose the oath is one of loyalty to the Jewish People, but not of adoption by same.

Either way there are serious pitfals ahead. Maybe the oath will bring Muslim members of the Jewish People into being (I doubt it, but who knows). Or most likely, it will force citizens to choose between becoming illegal aliens or being explicitly (if symbolically) subjects of Jewish or even Rabbinic authorities.

I abhor mixing government power with religious activities as a rule, and I see no reason to make an exception of this situation. It is simply not a good idea, although I guess it may be an inevitable one.

 

[kai]

Even if the Jewish part was ommited it would still upset the Arabs as they aren't to keen on Democracy .

well it doesnt really matter what it says does it ,because how can people that do not even accept Israel as an entity "like" anything about it? we all know certain people in the Arab /Muslim world would like Israel omitted from the middle East.

 

[Etritonakin]

Agreed, but...



You mean that there is a practical use for the oaths? Which would it be?

AFAIK they are just a national/ethnic pride thing and would best be disposed of altogether.

No -they are practical for the time being because "national/ethnic pride" things might lead to the extinction of peoples when twisted and distorted. Their use is practical in the short term to prevent genocide and loss of identity and culture -and, in extreme cases -existence.

If the Nazis had allowed the Jews to live peacefully in Germany so long as they did not act against Germany -and its purpose as a homeland for Germanic peoples, all would have been well -but they weren't given any options.

Israel was formed and inhabited primarily by people escaping the holocaust. Do we really begrudge them that??????????????????????????????????????????????

When they inhabited the "homelands" of other peoples, they were usually persecuted -then they formed their own nation in the most logical place on earth -and people declared war on them.

They gained land in those wars -and people whined.

They (some) were willing to give land back for peace -but this was not enough.

Their not being accepted has led some Israelis to err -and even God has issue with some of their tactics used against their neighbors -no matter who instigated what....

...but they have a right to exist.

They are willing to share the land so long as people acknowledge their right to exist -Israel does not demand expulsion or extermination for those willing to dwell peacefully -though some individuals might -and some of those may have certain authority. (I have dealt with such goobers here in the states)

 

[arimoff]

You mean, to demand an explicitly Jewish homeland?

Quite frankly, I just don't see why it would be so. There are hundreds if not thousands of people that never had or demanded one. From a practical standpoint I'm not convinced that the very existence of Israel is even morally defensable.

Note that I don't at all mean that the Jewish people should suffer or be homeless. But to have their own country? That is something else entirely.

then let those thousands of people demand home, who's stopping them? We bombed the hell out of Kosovo to give the land to those to who it doesn't belong and no body is complaining but you seem to have moral problems with Israel being there, for some reason I'm not surprised, speaking of morals if Europeans and all those who think like you would act as human beings towards Jews there wouldn't be a need for a Jewish home land, how dare you say that Jews do not deserve a home land? are trying to right off 6million innocent people? did you forget what your ancestors did for the past 2000 years as not enough for us to demand a home? you compliantly crossed the line having guts to come here and claim that everything is fine?

Get this fact straight, when all of you haters finally learn that Jews are people just like everybody else then we might have a descent conversation but if you can't get it inside your head perhaps use a nail.

 

[arimoff]

Well, I mean, the only publications I know from that entire area I have saved are Ha'areetz, Africa Times, Al'Jazeera, Indian Times, The Hindu and Asia Times. Do you have a suggestion?



Yes, mainly because the word 'Jewish' could have three meanings. It could be a racist state, a bigoted state, or a state which claims cultural superiority or any combination of the three. I don't understand you, would you expect a Jew to take oath to a caliphate?

How interesting that out of all 3 meanings all are hateful, maybe lack of education on your part or have you been going to an Arab history class?

no a Jew would not take an oath to caliphate but you wouldn't even care if the caliphate would demand an oath, by the way caliphate in its history have demanded an oath to Islam from Jews or death.

The Israeli bill of oath is created to defend it's existens, you having problems with the oath Leads me to believe that you have a problem with Israels existens, why? are you a Jew hater? I suspect you are because that state came in to existens out of survival.

 

[Sufi]

Arimoff stop being simplistic because people disagree with you it doesn't mean they are anti semitic, Israelis themselves are the biggest anti semites for their oppression and racism towards Arabs(Semites).

 

[arimoff]

I do not agree with American's pledge or immigration qualities, but if I did, I wouldn't mind a pledge to Israel. It's the pledge to a 'Jewish state' which is more than just Jewish.

More then just Jewish? and you a man for freedom and equality can't stand that oath it is racist to you, where have you been for all other racist occasions through out the world? where are your concerns that you have to be Muslim to survive in Arab lands? isn't it racist? what about the fact that a none Muslim can't enter the city of kabbah? isn't it racist and religious rules? why have you the man of freedom and equality have been silent? or has the word Jew drives the guts inside you to so much hate that you come here waisting your time constantly bashing a group of people?

The pledge as you called it, yet again proves that Israel is a Jewish home land weather you like or not it is going to stay that way, anybody who lives in Israel and don't like the rules and want to destroy I repeat DESTROY Israel and Jews can get the hell out of there, go to Rome or go to Mecca.

 

[arimoff]

No, it really just boils down to whether or not Israel is a secular state.

It doesn't make a difference if Israel is secular or not, it is not your business to decide that, worry about the country you live in.

Majority of the countries in the world have kicked Jews out and the same people complain that Israel has no right to be there, are you serious? should we Jews just stop to exist? what would you do without all those Mendeleyevs, Einsteins, Baruch Blumbergs, Landaus and so on? still live in a cave?

Get a life man.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Arabs are angry?

That's not news.

 

[AuroraWillow]

Arimoff stop being simplistic because people disagree with you it doesn't mean they are anti semitic, Israelis themselves are the biggest anti semites for their oppression and racism towards Arabs(Semites).

Pot. Kettle. Black.

 

[kai]

Arabs are angry?

That's not news.

Arabs are angry with Jews! thats not news either

 

[LuisDantas]

Are you promoting a one world government? If so, we should start a thread. I believe it would be interesting. :yes:

We probably should. Just to clarify, it is not as much that I propose a global government as that I think the idea of national governments is obsolete in various ways. On the one hand no one much trusts his own government anymore, and on the other the world has become much smaller than it used to be.

Some sort of tree-like political and administrative arrangement is probably called for, with a government that is considerably empowered at a neighborhood level and has progressively less clout the further up the ladder it gets.

Of course, that can only happen if and when the citizens decide that they want it.