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Featured Israel, the Servant of God

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The battles are spiritual battles in heaven, such as detailed in Daniel 10:13. As of yet, the beast, the rulers/dictators/Caesar still rule, but there will be 10 dictators/Caesars with respect to the 8th head of the beast of Revelation 17. The "beast" still rules, but now with 10 heads during the period of the 8th head, which was and is not and is to be. Dictators, whether of the city, state, or federal government, who rule by pen and phone, were given their power by the dragon (Revelation 13:4), and are nearing their end (Daniel 2:45 & Revelation 17:11).

    As for your "church", it has no spiritual power, nor does it have understanding as to what the "kingdom" represents, and the rock that Zion (mountain of God) is built on (Isaiah 28:16-17). The "woman" (Babylon the Great), the Roman church and it's daughters, have historical received their power from the beast it sits on, whose power comes from the dragon (Revelation 13:2). The beast's power is based on fear and intimidation. Off with your head or off with your job, if you spurn the dragon's beast. When one worships the beast, they worship the dragon (Revelation 13:4). Apparently, the people are turning away from the beast to cheer for Brandon instead.

    As for the writings of the unknown writers of Hebrew and 2 Peter, the "beast"/enemies still rule, and the day equivalence was taken from Psalms 90:4. As for Hebrews, which is sometimes attributed to Paul, Paul is simply the "false prophet" of Revelation 16, whose unclean spirit is to be used to deceive world. He is simply one of the two horns like a lamb of the beast (Revelation 13), the other being Peter, the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:17, and the Beast being the Roman emperor Constantine, the establisher of the foundational dogma of that church, who built a basilica to glorify both Peter and Paul The current Saint Peter's basilica was built on the indulgency money paid by widows in order to get their dead husbands out of hell. You cannot buy forgiveness of sins by paying to build something to impress the peasants, in order to get more money from them. .
     
  2. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    There's a big difference between the claim that falsehood is found in the [visible] Church, and the claim that Peter and Paul were false prophets. The first accusation holds some truth, but the second holds none at all.

    To accuse Peter and Paul of false prophecy is to make Jesus Christ a liar, and in making Jesus Christ a liar you also attribute falsehood to the Hebrew scriptures.

    Using Zechariah 11:17 as the basis for denouncing Peter is just an act of private interpretation. For there to be consistency, it's necessary to look elsewhere in the scriptures to discover who the false shepherds refer to. If one looks closely at Ezekiel 34, we have exactly what we are looking for; a prophecy specifically aimed at the false shepherds of Israel [see Ezekiel 34:2 and all that follows].
     
    #122 Redemptionsong, Oct 23, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  3. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Well, you might want to read what Yeshua says a little more closely. He said he came to fulfill the Law and the prophets (Matthew 5:17), and Zechariah was a major prophet who he was to fulfill, and with respect to Peter being told to care, feed, and tend the sheep as their shepherd, that was pointed out in John 21:16, per Zechariah 11:16, he apparently left them.. Apparently, per some unknown writer of Acts 15:7, Peter supposedly said he was going to the Gentiles, apparently not in line with his promise to Yeshua, in line with denying Yeshua 3 times, and apparently he went to Antioch and apparently spent some time in the Gentile Rome. As per the church "falling away", simply look to who Yeshua quoted when Peter denied him 3 times. Yeshua quoted that Peter was fulfilling Zechariah 13:7. As for the quote concerning "false prophets" per Matthew 7:15-23, that is a spot on description of Paul, whereas the fruits of his followers, the Roman church, produced rotten fruit, as you apparently conceded too above. I never said Peter was a false prophet, I said he was the "worthless shepherd", who would not care, feed, or tend the sheep (Zechariah 11:16). As for interpretation, the apparent only true source is the "anointing" (1 John 2:27), and teaches you all things, and not from some theocracy set up by the false prophet Paul. Don't you wonder why you don't understand Yeshua's message, and the varying interpretations by the 38,000 sects kind of leaves you wondering?

    As per Ezekiel 34, in reference to Israel, who are by the way, "scattered among the nations" (Ezekiel 36:19), whereas many among the "Christian" nations claim to the spiritual Israel, and many are indeed part of the 10 lost tribes. None of them feed the sheep, nor do they heal them. The Christian shepherds eat the fat of the sheep, and also do not heal them, nor do they gather them. Regardless, the Lord God will judge between the fat and the lean sheep (Ezekiel 34:22) and assign them "one shepherd, My servant David" (Ezekiel 34:23).

    The father of lies is the dragon/devil/Satan, and his followers, the tares, the followers of the gospel of lawlessness, who would accept his lies, and suffer the consequences (Matthew 13:47-50 & 41-42).
     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Wait, are you judging Jonah as "innocent" because in Jonah 1:14, a bunch of non-Jews who knew nothing about Jonah said so? And yet he clearly was NOT innocent because he was noted as ignoring God's command and he prays and repents in verses 9 and 10?
     
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  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I believe you are making a big mistake attributing to the Church prophecies that are intended for national Israel.

    The following words of Paul make it clear that the Church are to live by faith in the Lord Jesus. This is not 'lawlessness', as you keep claiming, but the faith that allowed Abraham to be accounted as righteous before God.

    Romans16:25,26. 'Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:'

    In 1 Corinthians 2:7,8 Paul elaborates on this 'mystery' and says 'Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory'.

    This revelation tells us that the cross was central to God's plan of redemption, because faith in Jesus as the Son of God, and Saviour, cannot become the means of justification until after there has been crucifixion, resurrection and ascension to heaven. Had the 'princes of this world' known these things, they would not have crucified Jesus.

    What you appear to be arguing is that there is no justification by faith. So, how, exactly, do you think righteousness before God is achieved?
     
    #125 Redemptionsong, Oct 24, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2021
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Yes, even allowing for his attempt to run away, Jonah was seen as 'innocent' in the eyes of God. So God must have been looking at the man's heart, at his faith, as the condition for his forgiveness.
     
  7. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    No, he is listed as being "innocent" in the eyes of non-Jewish sailors, not in the eyes of God. Show me otherwise.
     
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  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Jonah repeats much of what we find written in the Psalms. When the water 'compassed' Jonah about [Psalm 42:7-9], he prayed, 'and my prayer came before You, Into Your holy Temple'. JPS then says,
    [Jonah 2:10]
    'But I, with loud thanksgiving,
    Will sacrifice to You;
    What I have vowed I will perform.
    Deliverance is the LORD's!'

    Exactly the same sentiment is expressed in Psalm 50:14
    'Sacrifice a thank offering to God,
    and pay your vows to the Most High.
    Call upon Me in time of trouble;
    I will rescue you, and you shall honor Me.'


    Jump to verse 23 of Psalm 50:

    'He who sacrifices a thank offering honors Me,
    and to him who improves his way
    I will show the salvation of God.'

    In Jonah, the picture painted is of a prophet who is descending into the pit. His final prayer is a prayer of thanksgiving to God, demonstrating that he honours his God. What is God's response to the prayer of thanksgiving, and the promise to improve his way?
     
  9. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Psalm 42 is about someone who feels forgotten by God though he has done nothing wrong.

    Jonah is about the admission that he has done something wrong.

    Psalm 50 speaks of ways of connecting with God -- through a sacrifice (which Jonah didn't do) and prayer when one is "in a day of trouble".

    If this parallels Jonah then one cannot say that Jonah descended into a pit/grave or died and was resurrected (which was your earlier claim in post 90, " If you look at Jonah 2, then the soul is in the grave (sheol) and only after prayer is the soul and body" and 92, "But the body was dead. It would not have been in sheol, the grave, otherwise.") but that he was just in a time of trouble. So you have just undone your "resurrection" claim.
     
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  10. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    The "righteous" are those who keep God's commandments. The wicked, the lawless, are those who do not. The "wicked"/lawless are doomed to be tossed into the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:49-50). To worship on God's mountain, one must keep the commandments and keep from profaning the Sabbath (Isaiah 56:6). God first gathers the "dispersed of Israel", which would be Judah and Ephraim (given the name of Israel), and then I will gather "others"... "to those already gathered" (Isaiah 56:8). Ephraim, the house of Israel, has not been gathered out of the nations (Ezekiel 36:24-26) & (Jeremiah 31:31-34). Those "days", have not come, and after the nations/Gentiles have confessed that their fathers taught them falsehoods, after the "day of distress" (Great tribulation) (Jeremiah 16:19). That day of the Lord (Joel 2:31) has not come, and the judgment of the nations is still behind the door (Joel 3:1-2) & (Daniel 2:45).

    As for following the "words of Paul", "words of mankind" (Jeremiah 17:5), that carries a curse. Well, the tares/lawless, those "who practice lawlessness", follow the "words of Paul", the false prophet of Matthew 7:13-23, and their broad way leads to "destruction", according to Yeshua. Now those who make it through the coming "great tribulation", will have to confess "our fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood" (Jeremiah 16:19).

    And what is "national Israel"? The state of Israel commenced in 1948, and is composed of Judah (Jews), and not Ephraim (Israel, the lost 10 tribes), which is still scattered among the nations. And the Jews are not living under king David (Ezekiel 37:24-28) as a sanctuary of God "forever". They are still looking for "the day is coming" when all the nations will gather against Jerusalem for battle (Zechariah 14:2). It is after the nations are all crushed, that the "house of Israel"/Ephraim, is gathered out of the nations/Gentiles, and joined with Judah, and the "kingdom" (Daniel 2:45) is established, "forever". None of that has happened as of 9:19 AM of 10/24/2021.
     
  11. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Because jumping head-first into a stormy ocean possibly infested with sharks is scary?
    Of course, you might be wondering why defying God isn't scarier. It probably is, it's just less tangible.
    They were afraid it might be viewed as murder. What did they know of the Jewish religion or of the God of the Hebrews?
    An expression would be my guess. Jonah is talking about how low he has sunk (pun intended). David uses similar wording about himself. Are you suggesting that David also died and was resurrected? When did that happen?
    Man walks, trips and falls into a hole in the ground. According to you, that's it. He will never be able to come out of the pit. Ever. Unless he dies down there, and God pities him. Okay, if you're comfortable with that scenario.
     
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  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    There is constant repetition in the Psalms of the same idea. Let's take Psalm 88:
    Here it says, verse 4,
    'I am on the brink of Sheol
    I am numbered with those who go down to the Pit'

    [at which point, one may think, Jonah must also have been 'on the brink of death' but...]
    I am a helpless man
    abandoned among the dead,
    like bodies lying in the grave
    of whom You are mindful of no more,
    and who are cut off from your care.
    You have put me at the bottom of the Pit,
    in the darkest places, in the depths.
    Your fury lies heavy upon me;
    You afflict me with all Your breakers. Selah.'


    I understand from all these passages that the physical body dies, but the soul continues in a conscious state (at least for a time). Resurrection of the individual occurs when a new incorruptible body is raised with the soul and Spirit.
     
  13. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    If you understand that in ALL these passages, the physical body actually (and in Psalm 88, this happens every night) dies then I can't help you.
     
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  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I agree, the righteous are those that keep the commandments. But, how can a man be righteous if he is also a sinner?

    Psalm 51:5. 'Behold, I was shapen in iniquity: and in sin did my mother conceive me'.

    Job 25:4. 'How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?'

    Psalm 58:1-3. 'Do ye indeed speak righteousness, O congregation? do ye judge uprightly, O ye sons of men?
    Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
    The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.'


    1 Kings 8:46. 'If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;'

    Psalm 130:3. 'If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?'

    God has given man the opportunity to prove himself worthy of the law, but the impure heart of man has failed him.
     
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  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Well, you do bring a smile!

    Am I suggesting that David died and was resurrected? If you're talking about 'My servant David' then, yes, I believe he did die, and was resurrected. I believe all these Psalms are like parables. They lay the 'earthly' side by side with the 'heavenly'. If we have 'eyes to see' then we'll peer through the earthly window and get glimpses of the kingdom of heaven.

    The same is true of Jonah. Jesus said, 'A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed'. [Matthew 16:4]
     
  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    You believe King David, seventh son of Jesse, husband of several wives and father of several children, slayer of Goliath and successor of Saul, died and was resurrected? That guy - or is "My servant David" some title for Jesus?
     
  17. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    If one repents of sinning, such as turns away from sinning, confesses their sins, and baptized in the spirit, as in born of God, they cannot sin, which will be reflected in their good fruit, not bad fruit (1 John 3:9) & (Matthew 3:). The missing dimension is being "born of God", for first one must die to themselves to be born again. Yeshua showed the way per Matthew 3. It is the "deceitful heart" (Jeremiah 17:9-10) which allows men to think they are now justified for believing what the devil already knows, that God is one, and not three (James 2:19), and now they surely shall not die, the first gospel of the serpent/dragon/devil, which is mirrored in the false gospel of grace. The devil's belief will not get him out of the lake of fire (Revelation 20) (Genesis 3:4) All men will be judged according to their deeds (Jeremiah 17:10). There is no salvation by faith alone. Faith in what? The faith of Abraham was one shown by action. Rahab the harlot was justified by works. (James 2:18-26).

    You are not supposed to remain a child of the devil and remain sinning (1 John 3:8). Sin only separates one from God. Grace does not increase with your increased sinning (Romans 5:20). The promise of rapture, and you never sleeping/dying are all fake news. Paul is apparently sleeping in his grave, in as that he is dead and supposedly buried outside of Rome. One either "comes out of her"/daughters of Babylon, or they receive her plagues. Your church can pray for your health, but God does not listen to sinners (John 9:31), and you will remain in your sins (James 5:15).
     
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand 'the dark' to be talking about what happens at night, or simply when you sleep.

    Psalm 88:11, 12.
    'Do you work wonders for the dead?
    Do the shades rise to praise You?
    Is Your faithful care recounted in the grave,
    Your constancy in the place of perdition?
    Are Your wonders made known in the netherworld,
    [darkness]
    Your beneficent deeds in the land of oblivion?'

    It strikes me that all these things are linked.
     
  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The title used of the Messiah, and the 'suffering servant' before him.
     
  20. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I see that impurity is attachment to this world (materialistic tendencies) and neglect of the Spirit that is the guiding Light of our One God.

    Regards Tony
     
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