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Featured Israel, the Servant of God

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. clara17

    clara17 Member

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    Do you know of a source where the original Hebrew texts can be seen? I dont. The oldest OT I know of is in Latin.
    What I'm saying is, none of really know what the oldest originals said, since we have translations of translations.
    I can't say for certain which version of Psalm 16:10 is closest to the original, nor can you
     
  2. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The KJV also uses the Greek Septuagint and Latin vulgate as foundations for its translation. Its one of the reasons is the worst translation out there.
     
  3. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Ah, so your approach is to deny the validity of the entire canon of Jewish text because it can't be twisted to say the words that you think should be there. Got it and TFP.
     
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  4. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    I feel we've gotten too side-tracked. We can talk about the messiah somewhere else. First, do you now agree with me that using the word sheol does not necessarily literally the person is in sheol/"hell"?
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    In the JPS 1985 notes on Psalm 6.6, it says, ' Biblical lsrael knew of no afterlife with reward and punishment - everyone, irrespective of behaviour or social status, descended to 'She'ol', the dark underworld, and lived a quasi-life there. Among the dead may be translated 'in the place of death,' paralleling 'She'ol'.'

    So if a person is in 'the belly of She'ol' they are most definitely in the place of death. This may only be the death of the body, but it is certainly 'a place of death'.
     
  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    That's ridiculous. How can all lsrael ascend to the throne of God 'as a human being' [JPS] and be granted dominion over 'All peoples and nations of every language'?

    Do you not believe that 'David my servant' [Ezekiel 37:24 ] will be king over lsrael?
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Here's quoting from the JPS, Daniel 7:13, 14.
    'As l looked on, in the night vision,
    One like a human being
    Came with the clouds of heaven;
    He reached the Ancient of Days
    And was presented to Him.
    Dominion, glory, and kingship were given to him;
    All peoples and nations of every language must serve him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away,
    And his kingship, one that shall not be destroyed'.


    Please read it carefully. We know that the 'Ancient of Days' is God. 'One like a human being' reaches God. So, where is God? Is His throne not in heaven?
     
  8. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Well, bully for the JPS. Nonetheless, whatever the "Biblical Israel" view was, it is irrelevant to our discussion. Was David dead and was he then resurrected and only then did he write the psalms where he mentioned sheol? Yes or no?
     
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    God is everywhere.
     
  10. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Go back and read what I wrote again. Your comment here makes no sense at all given what I actually said.
     
  11. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I want to distinguish, first of all, between David [1], who lived three thousand ago, and 'David [2] my servant' [Ezekiel 37:24] who 'shall be king over them'. The first was a temporal king, the second is the everlasting king.

    There are many parallels between David 1 and David 2. But there are also some important differences. David 1, for instance, commits sin, whereas David 2 does not.

    David 1, who wrote many of the Psalms, is in the grave, and dead, at the present time.
    David 2 is waiting to return to earth, having already been resurrected, and having already ascended to heaven. When he does return to earth, he will raise the saints from the dead, and that will include David1.

    IMO.
     
    #211 Redemptionsong, Oct 27, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Well, you obviously don't believe your own scripture, which states emphatically that the throne of God is in heaven.

    JPS lsaiah 66:1.
    'Thus saith the LORD:
    The heaven is My throne
    And the earth is My footstool:'


    Is there, at this time, a kingdom of God on earth? I understand that you still await your Messiah?
     
    #212 Redemptionsong, Oct 27, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Which post are you referring to?
     
  14. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    This is the only David that is relevant to our current discussion. This David, who composed psalms describing himself in "sheol" - did not die and was then resurrected and then wrote psalms about "sheol". Agree?
     
  15. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    No. How can David 1 be alive when the resurrection of the dead has not yet taken place?
     
  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    Thank you. So evidently we're in agreement that when David is speaking about him in "sheol", he doesn't literally mean a place where dead people dwell. Hence, evidence for Jonah as well.
     
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  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    When you say 'him' in She'ol', are you referring to David 1 or David 2? David 1 is a prophet, and his prophecies do not refer to himself. For example, the death described in Psalm 22 is not a death that David 1 experienced. It was a prophecy depicting the death of David 2.
     
    #217 Redemptionsong, Oct 27, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  18. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    Yeshua's message was the coming kingdom, which is encapsulated in the "law and the prophets" (Matthew 5:17-18). The "Law and the prophets" is the "Word" of God. The "Word of God" is coming to to "smite the nations/Gentiles" (Revelation 19:13-14) in the day of the Lord.

    New King James Version Colossians 2:14
    having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
     
  19. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    You will find that David confessed his sin, repented, and produced good fruit, to end his being cut off from God, which is the condition of the walking dead, the sinners (Psalsm 51).. The same message given in Matthew 3. The "mercy" in the present sense, is God is giving everyone a chance to repent, such as turn away from sin. The definition of "sin" is transgression of the Law. The message of Yeshua in Matthew 3, was that without production of "good fruit", one is cut off and tossed into the fire.

    Isaiah 30:18 Therefore the Lord waiteth that he may have mercy on you: and therefore shall he be exalted sparing you: because the Lord is the God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

    The "waiting" ends on the day of the Lord.

    In the day of the Lord, there will be survivors from Jerusalem and Zion (Joel 2:31-32). As for the nations/Gentiles, they will be judged (Joel 3:2) and smitten/crushed (Revelations 19:13-21) & (Daniel 2:45).
     
  20. Harel13

    Harel13 Am Yisrael Chai
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    This differentiation between Davids is of your own making and not something I agree with or particularly care about. We are talking here about King David, son of Jesse, second king of Israel, slayer of Goliath, conquerer of Jerusalem, among other things. One of those other things are psalms that were authored by him. In some of those psalms he refers to himself being in "sheol". Do you agree that he was not dead nor previously dead when he said those things?
     
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