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Featured Israel, the Servant of God

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    I can pen that X is a daughter of the devil. It does not make it true. As for an intimate of Paul, writing that Paul is an apostle, and of course that being according to Paul, that would make it "untrue" for a self witness is "not true" per Yeshua in John 5:31.

    You can say Lord, Lord, and do miracles in my name, but in the end, you are not "saved", and Yeshua will tell you , "I never knew you; Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:22). Well, Paul's message is one of that the Law is obsolete, and you can do what ever I say you can do, such as I am a Gentile to the Gentiles, but a Jew to the Jews. It is a message of appearance and not of substance. And as you quoted, it is justice and judgment that are paramount, which is to say, everyone is judged on their deeds, and not on their false perceptions. (Revelation 20:12).

    And if Yeshua was the "Word" made flesh, the "Word of God", how is it you believe in him, if you nail his message to the cross? I think you have some problems with your message, and with the messenger who brought you your doctrine.

    Keep in mind that those with the "mark of the beast", will drink from the cup of God's anger (Revelation 14:10). And the "day of the Lord" is "right at the door" (Matthew 24:33). You might want to do a deeper search for "truth", and what "mercy" means in the present context. As for Paul's Lord, when in trouble in Jerusalem, he called on his lord, Caesar, with his cohorts, to save him.
     
  2. clara17

    clara17 Member

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    how is it you believe in him, if you nail his message to the cross?

    It wasnt his message on the cross, it was his body.
     
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    That leaves the case of a man dying, being resurrected with an incorruptible body, and then ascending to heaven. That did not happen to Enoch, to Elijah, or to the lad that Elijah restored to life.

    In Psalm 16:10 the reference is to the 'Holy One' or 'Faithful One'. This cannot refer to David because he is dead in Sheol, the grave, where he remains to this day. The one who is not abandoned, and who sits at the right hand of God must be 'David my servant' [Psalm 110:1], the one chosen to be Messiah.
     
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    If you believe that the Messiah is born the 'son of David', at what point does he ascend to heaven? Or does he remain a king on earth forever?
     
  5. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    So the combination (resurrection and "ascending to heaven") as done by a specific person is what you hang your hat on because all the component parts have been shown not to be enough. Got it.
    Actually, Psalms 16:10, spoken as part of the first person statement of David, reads,
    "For You will not abandon me to Sheol,
    or let Your faithful one see the Pit."
    so it refers to David because he, himself, says it does. Deciding that it doesn't so that you can justify some other reading, but contradicting what the text says is intellectually dishonest.

    As a side note, if you assume that the one in 16:10 is not David, but is some figure that you say is at the right hand of God, then you would have to reconcile that with 16:8 which reads, "I am ever mindful of the LORD’s presence; He is at my right hand". So "David my servant" is at the right hand of God, but God is at the right hand of the first-person speaker you identify with "David my servant."
     
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  6. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I think you should look up the word 'mercy', because when you do you will find the book of Psalms contains more uses of the word than any other book in the Bible. The Psalms provide us with David's inner struggles and mindset, and show that God is merciful to those who approach him with a contrite spirit.

    Judgment and vengeance is not what Jesus Christ came to offer.
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    To have God at one's right hand means that he is acting as one's strength. To be at God's right hand means that you ARE God's strength. So, who is God's 'STRENGTH' ?

    It can only be the Messiah of God.
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, clara17. I agree.
     
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  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The "son of man" in Daneil refers to Israel. And in the vision, the son of man is not ascending into heaven, but descending out of heaven. I thought we already went through that.
     
  10. clara17

    clara17 Member

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    There are dozens of cases in the Old Testament of a name being used to represent the descendants of that name, Canaan, Ham, Jacob, Judah, David etc.
     
  11. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    cute invention. Since one text says "sit to my right" (שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י) and the other says "because from my right" (כִּ֥י מִֽ֝ימִינִ֗י) and you say they both apply to the same character, you do have to make something up I guess.
     
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  12. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Well, it does when it, contextually, says it does, not when it is talking in first person and is written by the person in question.
     
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  13. clara17

    clara17 Member

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    I dont know if you linked to Ps 16:10 or the system did it automatically
    but the link shows Holy One capitalized not lowercase faithful one.
    Religious Forums

    What translation are you reading that has "faithful one"?
     
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    I did not link to anything so that was the system's doing. I used this

    כִּ֤י ׀ לֹא־תַעֲזֹ֣ב נַפְשִׁ֣י לִשְׁא֑וֹל לֹֽא־תִתֵּ֥ן חֲ֝סִידְךָ֗ לִרְא֥וֹת שָֽׁחַת׃
    For You will not abandon me to Sheol,
    or let Your faithful one see the Pit.

    Available on sefaria.org

    Or you can use this one which has "pious one"
    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16237#v10
     
  15. clara17

    clara17 Member

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    Im not familiar with this text/translation. What is the origin?
     
  16. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The text is in Hebrew. The two translations are the JPS 1985 and the Judaica Press available on chabad.org.

    The Hebrew word is chasid'cha. Holy one would be "kodshecha". Different root and word.
     
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  17. clara17

    clara17 Member

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    I think the translations are going to be so different there would be no point in debating with someone who uses the kjv/masoretic version. They are different books entirely.
     
  18. Rival

    Rival Dex Me Gart
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    The Jewish version uses the Masoretic Text, it just translates it right - unlike the Authorised Version (KJV).
     
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  19. clara17

    clara17 Member

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    Its tough to say.
    Modern Hebrew is nothing like the original that the text was written in.
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Who says that I am discussing modern Hebrew? Biblical Hebrew has been studied and taught in Jewish contexts for a long, long time. It just so happens, I started learning it almost 50 years ago. My modern Hebrew skills are no where near as good.

    Unless you also think that because modern English is not the same as Shakespearean English, we can't study Shakespeare...
     
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