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Featured Israel, the Servant of God

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Oct 18, 2021.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Are Jews (as 'Israel') correct in claiming to be the 'My [God's] servant' ? [Isaiah 42:1];

    [JPS] 'This is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one, in whom I delight. I have put my spirit upon him,
    He shall teach the true way to the nations'
    /

    [KJV] 'Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles'

    Is this a future hope for national Israel? If so, it must occur after the Gentiles have been taught the 'true way' (by the Church). Do Jews have the 'spirit upon him'?

    Isaiah 59:21. [JPS] 'And this shall be My covenant with them, saith the LORD: My spirit which is upon you, and the words which I have placed in your mouth, shall not be absent from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your children, nor from the mouth of your children's children - saith the LORD - from now on, for all time'.

    [KJV] 'As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever'.

    IMO, the new covenant is, therefore, the covenant of GOD'S SPIRIT, the Spirit of Christ. Israel, the true body of Christ, lives in the way of 'spirit and truth'.

    As John the Baptist said,
    'I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost'.[Mark 1:8]

    And as Paul asked [Acts 19],
    'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed'?

    'And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied'.[verse 6]
     
  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    There are at least 4 different interpretations that the Jews have for the servant character in this text. None is reliant on anything to do with the gospels or Christianity.
     
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  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I wanted to ask you an unrelated question. I was speaking on another thread and the member I spoke with said Abraham was not Jewish but a pagan. Is that true from your point of view?
     
  4. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    No, it is not true. In Judaism Abraham is considered not even the first monotheist, but the first monotheist who came upon a monotheistic view based on his own realization and logic, rather than a personal experience or being taught to believe something.
     
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  5. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    In my opinion: they might be partially right. It (if there is a future hope for what you here call national Israel) depends on the interpretation of "and thus all Israel will be saved passage." Is all Israel saved by God filling the number of the Elect from the world or is it that God fills the number of the Elect from the world and adds to it as a symbol those others living at the end of time as a capstone, so that there is the first and last? I am not sure, the last opinion seems more certain to me but I need to study the commentary of the Fathers on it to see what they think, St. John Chrysostom, St. Thomas of Aquinas, and others.

    I do agree with you about the Holy Spirit being poured out in the New Covenant though, as St. Peter said in his first sermon after Pentecost.
     
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    (I read) When you say monotheist I assume he's not pagan but was he Jewish (Israelite-if I'm not mistaken)?
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    According to the JPS, they are: Cyrus (a 'type' of Christ), Isaiah (although prophets do not witness of themselves, John 5:31), the Israelite nation, and the Messiah.

    So, if one takes out Cyrus and Isaiah, one is left with the Messiah (the individual 'Israel', or head) and his people 'Israel' ( according to the NT this is Jew and Gentile in one body).

    For the Israelite nation this may appear as having no relevance - except that the Israelite nation has not yet seen its Messiah, or head! [Zecharaiah 12:10]
     
  8. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    The concept of "Jewish" did not exist, at least not formally. There is a Jewish tradition that Abraham studied the laws which would eventually be part of Judaism and followed many of them voluntarily, but he was not "Jewish" in a sense that would make sense to people today. He also wasn't an "Israelite" because that name also post-dated him. He was a "Hebrew".

    (He was not Pagan as there is no evidence that he worshipped nature or anything like that.)
     
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  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I think that they are partially right, too, because God has never abandoned the Jews. The return to the land of Israel, is IMO, a prophetic fulfilment (still in process). But the return to the land has not, as yet, brought a national recognition of Jesus as the Christ. I think this has still to happen, and will happen when Christ appears.

    I believe that a remnant of the old Israel (Jacob) will be found in Christ, the true spiritual 'Israel'. Salvation is found in Christ, which is why ALL (spiritual) Israel will be saved.

    I think it's worth reading Jacob's struggle at Peniel [Genesis 32]. What happened that his name should be changed to Israel? Did Jacob not see God 'face to face'?
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Those are indeed four of them. Quoting John to make any statement about what a prophet in the Jewish tradiion does or does not do is silly.

    If one takes out the letters P and L, "place" becomes "ace." But why take out the P and L? Oh, so you can have the answer you want to find. Got it.
    Then you don't know what a messiah is because Israel has seen many of them. And Zech 12:10?

    9: In that day I will all but annihilate all the nations that came up against Jerusalem.

    10: But I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born.
     
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  11. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    My Church teaches that God never abandoned them and finding out the exact nature of that is a mini-quest of mine. I am not sure what the significance of the modern state of Israel would be prophetically. Politically I can see the usefulness but not otherwise. I am not sure how the Antichrist thing will go down either, or if the common view of the Antichrist is even correct. Massive subjects.

    I have just been looking at some commentaries on what will happen when "all Israel is saved." It seems to me (from my opinion in reading these) that first the nations will be subjected and then Israel after the flesh will re-enter by faith (and so also be spiritual Israel), and after that the Resurrection of the Dead. I say so because St. Paul says "for if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean except life from the dead?" and the Lord Jesus says "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." So it seems that is related. St. Theodoret of Cyrus seems to think so at least, and his commentary on Romans is beautiful. I'll have to check others.

    With Genesis 32, are you reading this prophetically that they will see the Lord Jesus and then be placed against into Israel (spiritual Israel) so that in this way their name is changed? That would make sense to me although where would they see the Lord before the end? For if it is true that the Resurrection happens after their re-entry then where would the Lord be before this end?
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What the JPS says in its notes will help to bring some clarity.
    'An alternative and more common type of translation, which is at home in christological interpretation, is represented by "And l will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn"(NRSV)

    The notes also refer to the expression 'in that day' which we find used extensively throughout the Prophets as the day of the Lord's appearance.
     
  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    This is John referring to the words of Jesus; and the words of Jesus are always rooted in the Law, the Prophets and the Writings.

    So, in the case of a prophet not witnessing of himself, the source is to be found in Deuteronomy 13:1-5. Here it says that a prophet always speaks the words of God and never prophesies with the intention 'to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in'. A prophet, in other words, will not witness of themselves because this would lead people away from the LORD God. 'Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet'!
     
  14. 2ndpillar

    2ndpillar Well-Known Member

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    It was eventually Ephraim who wound up with the title of Israel, and represents the lost 10 tribes, who have the "holy name" (Ezekiel 36:21), in which "the house of Israel" has profaned. The Jews are representative of the tribe of Judah, a "stick", which has of today, not been combined with the "stick" of Ephraim/Israel.(Ezekiel 37:16). The "house of Israel" remains scattered among the nations/Gentiles, and has yet to be gathered out (Ezekiel 37:19-25), and joined with the stick of Judah in the land given to Jacob, under the kingship of "my Servant David"..
     
  15. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    First, claiming that the words of Jesus are rooted in anything is silly. They are rooted in the fictional approach of the various gospel authors.

    Second, Deut 13:1-5 talks about a false prophet who tells people to do something which goes against the word of God. There is nothing about a prophet mentioning his own existence and calling. A prophet saying "I was sent by God" isn't a problem if what the prophet says is in line with God's law. So, starting with a lack of understanding of the text leads you to strange and false conclusions.
     
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  16. Shaul

    Shaul Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah refers to the servant of HaShem unqualified (not explicitly identified) and explicitly identified. When Isaiah explicitly identifies a servant of HaShem he uniformly identifies the servant as the collective nation of Israel. He uses several synonyms such as Judah, Jeshrun, and Israel. Assuming that when Isaiah uses “servant” he is speaking of the nation is reasonable and in harmony with the rest of the book of Isaiah.
     
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  17. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The words Jesus spoke were always rooted in the Hebrew scriptures. Maybe you would like to quote some that are not!

    Secondly, the issue is not about a prophet being sent by God, but a prophet claiming the words of God for himself. In lsaiah 61 :1,2, for example, the prophecy cannot be about lsaiah because lsaiah makes the same prophecy throughout his book. 'The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me' is not lsaiah speaking, it's the one mentioned in lsaiah 59:21, lsaiah 42:1 and Isaiah 11:2. It would be a very careless use of language to suggest otherwise.
     
  18. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this, but only in the light of the spirit. Christ, 'my Servant David', is the king, and all in Christ will be saved. This means that both sticks, lsrael and Judah, become one in Christ.

    But who, exactly, is the stick 'lsrael' if they are now scattered amongst the nations without a 'Hebrew' identity? Are these people not Christians?

    Judah, to whom the Messiah first came, will be the last to receive Christ, and that will be at his coming again. As l see it.
     
  19. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The problem with always identifying lsrael as the nation is that it is headless and without a king. 'My servant David' is identified as the individual king on a number of occasions, such as Ezekiel 37:24. Israel is an individual, as well as a nation. Israel is both a head, and a body.
     
  20. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    You mean the words that other writers attributed to Jesus were usually loosely linked to ideas developed in Judaism. So that when Jesus makes a wrong statement about plucking wheat kernels on the sabbath it is connected to a biblical event. The word "the" is in the Hebrew scriptures but that doesn't mean that when I use it, the Hebrew scriptures become relevant.
    "For himself"? What does that mean? A prophet who says "God sent me and here is the message" claims the words "for himself."
    Yes, it is.
    this verse is explicitly God speaking to and of the prophet in second person. The other verses are in the first person.
    Clearly, the opinion that this refers to the prophet, himself, is informed by the context. Ignoring the later Christian-inserted chapter headings, one would see that only 3 verses earlier God (first person) speaks of the prophet he sends as distinct from the false prophets of Baal.
    11:2 is separate -- the Ibn Ezra writes, "The majority of commentators apply this chapter to the Messiah, as if the prophet said, The Assyrian army, which is now attacking Jerusalem, will perish; but besides this partial deliverance, a time of complete redemption will come for Jerusalem. R. Moses Hakkohen refers the chapter to Hezekiah, on account of its being the continuation of the prophecy recorded in the preceding chapter."

    So who says 11:2 is about the prophet?

    You have some very sloppy readings going on here.
     
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