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Israel ...the land of darkness unto the nations.

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah, gotcha. I thought you would bring up any recent refugees Israel has taken in, but it doesn't look like any such thing happened. So I take it you don't actually disagree with the assessment that Israel hasn't taken in substantial amounts of war refugees in a long while?
You said "in the past 20 years". Nice job moving the goalposts. Was it hard? Were they heavy?
But since you asked oh so nicely, here: Ukrainian Jewish Orphans Evacuated To Israel - VINnews
If you don't see any morality in Israel's refusal to take in war refugees
No. I don't necessarily see immorality in its refusal.
then you should have made that your argument, rather than trying to attack the morality of other posters for not personally sacrificing themselves.
And my actual argument, which I see you completely missed, is that a great many of the anti-Israelis of RF constantly attack Israel for not being perfect per their own personal moral standards, which are not necessarily consistent, i.e., they continuously ignore good things that Israel does, as well as ignoring bad things other countries do, on a daily basis. For some reason, Israel has been placed on a pedestal.
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
Palestinian terrorist groups are literally armed by Iran.
Where else do you think their rockets come from?




Could I have that again with some sort of sentence reconstruction?
I have no idea what you are trying to say.




Of course you are. Which is why you are so vocal about all the other conflicts in the world.




Nah you are wrong.




Oh a new claim, now Israel is discriminating also against Jews?




As if you even know what Israel has offered in the past.



Israel’s hugely controversial "nation-state" law, explained
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I am not denying anything about the Jewish claim, but it's not factual that because you were there once that it is yours whenever you return.
I will play along with this. What gives Arabs rights to the land? Don't forget that in a few decades' time, the last remnants of the people who fled during the '48 and the '67 Wars will likely have passed away. And when that happens, per your logic, their descendants will no longer have any right to the land, correct? Having never lived there, that is.
Now they made new laws ...demeaning the arabs, the language and the non Jews as second class citizens.
Please, evidence. Quote the laws from the official Israeli book of laws.
If everyone thought how the Zionists think now, that because over 2000 years ago it is their land, then imagine what the world would be like if the Native Americans were to do the same, restoring the Arabs back to Spain, the Serbs to Kosovo and many many others
I wouldn't mind that. Although, don't forget that some of the land was lawfully bought or gifted.
Wars happen.
Indeed, wars happen. Here are some wars that happened over the last 73 years:
1948 Arab–Israeli War - Wikipedia
Six-Day War - Wikipedia
Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia
1982 Lebanon War - Wikipedia
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
That's not an Arab writing that but an Israeli. I agree with him. The Israel I supported in my youth is dead. What's left gives preference to a Russian oligarch who contributes to a memorial over the suffering of children. In a time when nations are standing up to be counted, Israel is showing how far she's fallen from the path of virtue.

Israel’s Rejection of Ukrainian Refugees Shows That It’s the Darkness Unto the Nations


The country whose ethos is based on a scathing indictment of the world that kept silent, looked away and locked its gates is doing the exact same thing in this moment of truth.
...
To look after your own poor is fine, but to look after them alone is monstrous. Concern for your own people is understandable, but concern for them alone is perverted.
...
Is there really a difference between a Ukrainian child fleeing for his or life, someone who doesn’t have a Jewish great-grandmother, and a Ukrainian child who does? What’s the difference? The difference is called racism. This rummaging in blood, at a time of war yet, is called selection.
...
In this hour of darkness that has descended on the world, Israel is emerging as the land of darkness unto the nations. Nobody should have expected it to be a light unto the nations. Why on earth light, why? But at least we could have expected it to be like everybody else.
...
Israel has a commitment to refugees not only because of its past – it’s also obligated to the Ukrainian refugees mainly because of the large community of Ukrainian workers in Israel. A country that forbids the devoted caretakers of its elderly and cleaners of its homes to invite in their relatives to save their lives is clearly an immoral country. The welter of shabby excuses about Ukraine’s conduct during the Holocaust only makes the picture worse, punishing the grandchildren’s grandchildren for the sins of their fathers and mothers.
...
It’s something buried deep in the national DNA, amid years of brainwashing about the need to be strong, only strong, amid tall tales of the Chosen People and the only victims in history, allowed to do anything. And this image is accompanied by a cultivation of xenophobia in dimensions illegal in any other country. All this is now coming to light in a particularly ugly display.

Maybe it’s the original sin of a country that was established on the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of refugees, maybe it’s the Zionist religion that advocates Jewish supremacy in every facet. Whatever the reasons, none of this justifies requiring a deposit of a single shekel from a war refugee at Ben-Gurion Airport.

And darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Maybe it's the consequence of surviving 6 wars and infitadas,maybe it's made them cold hearted,maybe whatever Israel does will be condemned,maybe it's a response to constantly being attacked on every level,condemned in it's inception in 1948 for taking refugees and now ironically for not taking them now,of course though they are guilty as accused of some things but maybe a consequence of the above imo,
 

MyM

Well-Known Member
ok let's imagine.

The arab israelis still have the "special status" ...it's all for the Israelis and they will continue to harm the Palestinians as they see fit. They made a state, they named it, now they have even more control and no one can say one word anymore and yet, they still occupy the Palestinians.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Shimon HaTzadik, there's an entire gravesite to him which was not surrounded by any buildings prior to Jews building there in the Ottoman era.

You are of course educated on this issue right?
You do know that Israeli courts have had the residents back since 1967 and even assisted in a compromise which included reduced rent to the owners (Ottoman records are quite clear on it) and a stronger renter safety than normal, right?
You do know that the residents accepted this compromise in the 80s but were called back by the PLO which convinced them to go back on it, right?
And that despite that Israeli courts continued to hold their hand over the issue despite the owners insisting on action for 40 years, right?

Of course you know all that.

That's a typical nationalist narrative to extricate Israel. Meanwhile, independent observers say otherwise:

“We wish to emphasize that East Jerusalem remains part of the occupied Palestinian territory, in which international humanitarian law applies,” Colville said.

“The occupying power… cannot confiscate private property in occupied territory,” he said, adding that transferring civilian populations into territory considered occupied under international law was illegal and “may amount to war crimes.”

Colville demanded that Israel halt actions that “further contribute to a coercive environment or leads to a risk of forcible transfer.”

UN: Pending Israeli evictions in East Jerusalem could be a ‘war crime’

Also:

UNRWA Joins Other Entities in Raising Alarm Over Eight Sheikh Jarrah Families at Risk of Forced Eviction - Statement - Question of Palestine

Security Council Delegates Urge Israel to End Evictions of Palestinians, as Chief Mediator Calls for Political Leadership, ‘Firm’ Actions That Enable Dialogue | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases

When independent investigators, international human rights organizations, and the UN point in one direction while Israeli nationalists and religious fanatics point in another, it seems clear which side is being more reasonable and concerned with human rights rather than pursuit of an apartheid state based on their preferred scriptural interpretation or political inclination.

Israel dropped thousands of bombs on Gaza last year.
Yet only 128 civilians (as per UN) died.

Why? Because of warning leaflets, calls and SMS warning the population that an attack would take place giving them time to evacuate.

So stop crying your crocodile tears, literally no other country does this.

And once again, we have an idealized image of Israeli military operations versus this:

JERUSALEM (AP) — Human Rights Watch on Tuesday accused the Israeli military of carrying out attacks that “apparently amount to war crimes” during an 11-day war in May against the Hamas militant group.

The international human rights organization issued its conclusions after investigating three Israeli airstrikes that it said killed 62 Palestinian civilians. It said “there were no evident military targets in the vicinity” of the attacks.

The report also accused Palestinian militants of apparent war crimes by launching over 4,000 unguided rockets and mortars at Israeli population centers. Such attacks, it said, violate “the prohibition against deliberate or indiscriminate attacks against civilians.”

Human Rights Watch: Israeli war crimes apparent in Gaza war

Furthermore:

OHCHR | No Justification for Israel to Shoot Protesters with Live Ammunition

I don't usually cite so many sources in one post, but since your claims simply go against so much evidence to the contrary from organizations and investigators who aren't Islamist extremists or Zionist fanatics, it seems necessary to underline the problem with such casual dismissal of a years-long habit of violating international law and abusing Palestinian civilians.

Perhaps UN resolutions had more weight if the world concentrated on far bigger and bloodier conflicts first instead of some tiny conflict.
Btw the Ukraine invasion is almost half way to the 27.000 deaths of the Israeli-Arab conflict in a bit over a week.

But hey facts are really annoying.

Ukraine and Russia are also multiple times the size of Israel and Palestine, not to mention that deaths aren't the only metric by which we can measure abusive practices in a given region.

I don't care.
Pro-Palestinians want to turn Israel into an Arab-majority country and the odds that it would be the unusual Arab country which doesn't persecute its non-Arab population are next to zero.

So, in order to respond to that, Israel chooses to persecute Palestinians. It feels like a kettle painting itself black before the pot can accuse it of being so.

Like what?
Btw safety is indeed different because Arab majority cities have in the past opted for no Israeli police due to resentment towards the police.
This resulted in Arab majority cities to be policed by Arab clans.

They have since changed their opinion. I wonder why.

Not sure why it would be hard to see where the resentment toward the police comes from when there are reports showing that they have used excessive violence (up to and including lethal violence) against civilians.

Good luck disproving facts.

Like independent investigations and international reports, or pro-Israeli narratives from nationalists and religious extremists? Politically and religiously motivated "facts" often have more to them than meets the eye.
 
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Reactions: MyM

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
And the Sheikh Jarrah reference? Comical. People don't pay rent, people get evicted. Yes, sometimes it takes years and years and people get comfy refusing to pay rent, but eventually, courts are allowed to say "pay rent."

I responded to this argument in my previous post. No, it isn't simply a matter of "no rent = evicted"... unless, as has previously happened many times in discourse about Israel, independent reports and human rights organizations are swept side for the benefit of political and religious zeal.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
I have spoken the truth. I have friends as EYE-WITNESSES. I have said nothing that is not the truth. You can even google everything I have said and find out for yourself about the atrocities that go on. It's nothing new.

The other Jewish guy, brought up so many different things that he jumps all over the place. I brought up something, he jumps somewhere else. Now he brought up Jerusalem and how many times it's mentioned in the Quran as if it has any bearing on what we were saying. sighs

Oh didn't you know,Jerusalem is an Islamic waqf according to Hamas where Jews hide behind a gharkad tree,Jerusalem isn't mentioned in the Quran directly,it is in the hadith of the night flight of Muhammed on a Buraq,a Mule like creature,really it has zero claims made by Hamas unless you believe in flying Mules.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I responded to this argument in my previous post. No, it isn't simply a matter of "no rent = evicted"... unless, as has previously happened many times in discourse about Israel, independent reports and human rights organizations are swept side for the benefit of political and religious zeal.
When you portray the two sides as
"When independent investigators, international human rights organizations, and the UN"
on one side and
"nationalists and religious fanatics"

on the other and ignore that the UN has a history of being anti-Israel (as admitted to by a previous sec'y general of the UN) HRW has been criticized by its own founder and former chairman as anti-Israel while also ignoring that the issue is discussed in a legal and court system in a democracy (a court which has Arabs in it, and Jews of both the religious and non-religious variety)

then you show that your agenda is demonization and creating false binaries.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
The arab israelis still have the "special status"

No. Israeli Arabs are full Israeli citizens protected by law.


.it's all for the Israelis and they will continue to harm the Palestinians as they see fit. They made a state, they named it, now they have even more control and no one can say one word anymore and yet, they still occupy the Palestinians.

Perhaps the Palestinians should stick their heads together and urge their political representation to engage in peace talks.
With a bit of luck they'll get Israel to go back to the Camp David peace plan (which the Palestinians refused) or the Olmert peace plan (which the Palestinians
refused).

But as it stands they don't want that.
They continue to support a violent struggle in which they only ever lose.
All for the faintest shimmer of hope that they'll get to paint Tel-Aviv red.
Yet they don't stop whining about the results of their choices and people all over the world continue to strengthen them in these suicidal choices.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
When you portray the two sides as
"When independent investigators, international human rights organizations, and the UN"
on one side and
"nationalists and religious fanatics"

on the other and ignore that the UN has a history of being anti-Israel (as admitted to by a previous sec'y general of the UN) HRW has been criticized by its own founder and former chairman as anti-Israel while also ignoring that the issue is discussed in a legal and court system in a democracy (a court which has Arabs in it, and Jews of both the religious and non-religious variety)

then you show that your agenda is demonization and creating false binaries.

Dismissing the UN as "anti-Israel" requires very strong evidence. I don't see it being any more anti-Israel than it is anti-any other state that frequently commits human rights violations. The same goes for Human Rights Watch, which calls out abuses in a significant number of countries besides Israel.

The idea that critics of Israel are singling it out or being unfair even when so many of them share similar observations is a convenient way to shut down criticism of Israel's problematic practices. It bears striking resemblance to Islamists' claims of "Islamophobia" when other people bring up legitimate concerns about their practices or beliefs.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Dismissing the UN as "anti-Israel" requires very strong evidence. I don't see it being any more anti-Israel than it is anti-any other state that frequently commits human rights violations. The same goes for Human Rights Watch, which calls out abuses in a significant number of countries besides Israel.
The former secretary general of the UN dismissed the UN as anti-Israel. But what position does he have to know, I guess? And the founder and former chairman of HRW levelled accusations of anti-Israel bias against HRW, but what would he know? Clearly, neither of them has evidence to support the contentions.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
The former secretary general of the UN dismissed the UN as anti-Israel. But what position does he have to know, I guess? And the founder and former chairman of HRW levelled accusations of anti-Israel bias against HRW, but what would he know? Clearly, neither of them has evidence to support the contentions.

Those are massive organizations with thousands of volunteers and employees worldwide, so yes, if we're going to dismiss all of their concerns about a state as biased, I think we need much more evidence than the opinions of two individuals, no matter their current or former positions. It's also worth emphasizing that those two organizations are far from alone in calling out some of Israel's policies as problematic and abusive.

By the same token, there are Israelis who believe Israel's current policies constitute persecution and illegal occupation. Why shouldn't we believe them the same way you argue we should those who claim international organizations are anti-Israel?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Those are massive organizations with thousands of volunteers and employees worldwide, so yes, if we're going to dismiss all of their concerns about a state as biased, I think we need much more evidence than the opinions of two individuals, no matter their current or former positions. It's also worth emphasizing that those two organizations are far from alone in calling out some of Israel's policies as problematic and abusive.

By the same token, there are Israelis who believe Israel's current policies constitute persecution and illegal occupation. Why shouldn't we believe them the same way you argue we should those who claim international organizations are anti-Israel?
I'm simply reporting that those with intimate knowledge of the inner workings of two organizations attest to the failings of those organizations as independent judges when it comes to middle east political issues. Their claims are supported by statistics, examples and much evidence to support them so dismissing them as lone voices is specious at best. Another organization recently issued a report about Israel which has been widely disproven, and that organization's track record has been similarly shown to be disproportionate in its focus and uneven in its coverage. As to Israelis who disagree with their own government? Sure, there are many. That's a big part of Israel -- criticism of the government. Democracies are like that.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
That's a typical nationalist narrative to extricate Israel. Meanwhile, independent observers say otherwise:

Calling factual history a narrative.
Are you by any chance orange?

"The Shimon HaTzadik tomb and its surroundings, with an area of 17 dunam, was purchased by the Sephardi Community Council and Knesset Yisrael in 1875. Near the neighbourhood is the Cave of the Minor Sanhedrin. The area was subdivided in 1890 for the purpose of establishing a residential neighborhood, and the neighborhood passed to the Sephardi Community Council. at the year 1890 , the Sephardi Jews community in the aria north to the site, on the slope above the area of Shimon HaTzaddik 6 houses for people with Economic difficulties, known as "בתי הקדש שמעון הצדיק" . during that time people started to build private houses in the area, and the rest converted to Agricultural land and olive harvest site.

in the book" ירושלים שכונות סביב לה[1]" kluger describes the construction of the neighborhood:
"In the month of Tishrei 1851, the foundation stone was laid for houses "shelters for the poor and needy, widows and orphans", in the field plot that the heads of the Sephardic community in Jerusalem bought for several years next to the cave in which the holy Tanna north of the Knesset remains. In Hadrat Kodesh, the cornerstone was laid in the presence of the city's rabbis, greats and dignitaries. The money for the construction of these houses was collected by Rabbi Shlomo Suzin in the cities of Gibraltar, Kaza-Blanka, Mazgan, Izomer and Mogador. Being there on a mission including the Spaniards, he volunteered to collect special alms for this purpose without any reward. Rabbi Suzin brought with him a total of 10,000 francs and handed them over the banker ce' Chaim Aharon and Liro, the head of the committee, with these money they began to build several houses. By-laws: The apartments are intended for the poor, by fate, and will be replaced every three years. "

In the year 1916, 13 families lived in the neighborhood; there were 45 persons.

Beside that neighborhood, during the 20th another neighborhood was built named "Nahalat Shimon" , neighborhood purchased by the bankers: Johannes Frutiger, and Yosef Navon. At first the neighborhood was developed by yosef mayuhas and later Nissim Elishar and Bezalel Kopel Kantrowitz Swap with him. Dozens of Jewish families established their homes on the purchased land , and before the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine (1936) hundreds of Jews lived there. When the riots broke out, the Jews fled the area, but returned to these neighborhoods a few months later.[2 1]

During the 1947–1949 Palestine war residents of the Shimon Hatzadik neighborhood suffered attacks from Sheikh Jarrah residents. On 7 January 1948, three Jews were murdered, and other people wounded by Arab gangs.[2] On 11 February 1948, the British ordered the residents of the "Shimon Hatzadik" and "Nahalat Shimon" neighborhoods to leave their homes out of concern for their lives. On 13 April of the same year, 78 members of Hadassah Medical Centerl staff, patients, members of Hebrew University of Jerusalem and fighters near the evacuated neighborhoods were murdered in the Hadassah medical convoy massacre. Forces of the Palmach rushed to help them but they were repulsed by the British forces during Mandatory Palestine. On Chol HaMoed of Passover holiday, the Palmach Occupied Sheikh Jarrah and the territory of the Jewish neighborhoods. The British forced them to retreat under the reasoning they needed the transport route that passed through the area. The British said they would update the Palmach when they finish transferring their forces through. Later when the British forces left, they only updated the Arabs who rushed and occupied the place, and the area of the neighborhood passed to Jordanian control."

Oh no historical facts.
I bet the Jews are responsible.


And once again, we have an idealized image of Israeli military operations versus this:
I don't usually cite so many sources in one post, but since your claims simply go against so much evidence to the contrary from organizations and investigators who aren't Islamist extremists or Zionist fanatics, it seems necessary to underline the problem with such casual dismissal of a years-long habit of violating international law and abusing Palestinian civilians.

You are behaving quite foolish.

128 civilians died as per United Nations. That is a fact.

Israel dropped thousands of bombs on the Gaza Strip. That is a fact.

This means civilians weren't targeted, if they were far more civilians would've died due to Israeli bombing. Unless you are saying Israel is incapable to do that, which would only negate the position of danger from Israel.
They didn't because residents of the Gaza Strip were warned before air strikes and artillery fire to vacate the area. Which most did.

If the residents of the Gaza Strip have a problem with being pulled into the conflicts of Hamas or Islamic Jihad with Israel they should take it upon themselves to remove these individuals from their society and positions of power.
After all they themselves voted them into power.

I'll wait for them to do that.


Ukraine and Russia are also multiple times the size of Israel and Palestine, not to mention that deaths aren't the only metric by which we can measure abusive practices in a given region.

Oh should we do a per 100.000 calculation? That's not going to be much better you know.


So, in order to respond to that, Israel chooses to persecute Palestinians. It feels like a kettle painting itself black before the pot can accuse it of being so.

Nah the whole persecution stuff is inside your head.
Most Palestinians suffer mostly under the PLO which suppresses them.
They mostly only interact with Israeli border police if they want to venture into Israel for work.

Which I think they shouldn't do. That supporting the oppressor.


Not sure why it would be hard to see where the resentment toward the police comes from when there are reports showing that they have used excessive violence (up to and including lethal violence) against civilians.

Arab Israelis never even encountered the police you genius.
The special status of Arab cities goes back decades.

You, like so many others are incapable of distinguishing Arab Israelis from Arabs in the Palestinian territories.
These are not the same as per Israeli law and are not treated the same.


Like independent investigations and international reports, or pro-Israeli narratives from nationalists and religious extremists? Politically and religiously motivated "facts" often have more to them than meets the eye.

He said while not disproving anything.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm simply reporting that those with intimate knowledge of the inner workings of two organizations attest to the failings of those organizations as independent judges when it comes to middle east political issues. Their claims are supported by statistics, examples and much evidence to support them so dismissing them as lone voices is specious at best. Another organization recently issued a report about Israel which has been widely disproven, and that organization's track record has been similarly shown to be disproportionate in its focus and uneven in its coverage. As to Israelis who disagree with their own government? Sure, there are many. That's a big part of Israel -- criticism of the government. Democracies are like that.

Good thing both organizations have thousands of volunteers and employees worldwide, then, as I previously mentioned. Then there's the fact that others with similar knowledge of their inner workings don't claim they're biased against Israel of all countries. Why would they be, anyway? It's not like they don't call out Israel's primary neighbors and enemies on human rights violations in a similarly vocal and direct manner.

Do Israelis who echo the observations of organizations like the UN also have an anti-Israeli bias?
 
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