Israel (is) my son...my firstborn.

[Shaul]

Personal opinion again? I could care less if you copied the TaNaKh, and printed it in sign language, makes no difference to me.

and you're not the only one who read and understand the Original Hebrew. so no thanks to YOUS understanding.... (smile) ....



let's see, Shiloh is the "gathering" of the people correct? Isaiah 43:5 "Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;" Isaiah 43:6 "I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;" Isaiah 43:7 "Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him."

now, the Gathering under Jesus the Christ, Matthew 23:36 "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Matthew 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:39 "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

Matthew 8:11 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."

Luke 13:28 "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." Luke 13:29 "And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." Luke 13:30 "And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last."

John 1:45 "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

101G.

Are you a contortionist by any chance? Because I have not seen such a display of twisting in quite some time!

You failed to provide any New Testament reference to Shiloh. Which is what I asked for. Because you can't, as I knew you could not. Since none exist.

But let's look at your attempt to equate Shiloh with Jesus' so-called gathering together. First of all, no, "Shiloh" doesn't mean a gathering together. That isn't what the word means. You keep repeating this unsupported nonsense. What part of "it doesn't mean that" is too hard to understand?

As for Jesus gathering together, he didn't. After Jesus' time the Jews were scattered, not brought together. So if gathering the people together is supposed to be a sign that Jesus is Shiloh the opposite is proven.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, David was hunted by Saul, and lived in a cave. There are similarities in that Saul hunted David, and "Saul of Taurus" hunted the disciples of the "son of man". David was also defeated and pursued by his son's army following his falling from the face of God due to his sin and was later forgiven and brought into the presence of God due to his confession, repentance, and production of good fruit.

What you say is not relevant to Psalm 22. The opening words were spoken by Jesus as he died on the cross. This should be enough to make one look again at how HE interpreted this Psalm.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It is incredible how Christians try to use the Roman destruction to try to prop up their theology. They ignore many facts to do so. First of all the Second Temple destruction happened long after Jesus' crucifixion, about 40 years. Also the Jewish kingdom wasn't destroyed until the second century, over a hundred years after Jesus died. So Jewish kings and priests continued after Jesus.

The temple is used by Jesus as a symbol of his own body. Clearly there has been no ruler in Judah since the temple was destroyed. The last rulers were not even kings, but High Priests working through the Sanhedrin.

Let's read the words of Genesis 49:10 again:
'The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be'.

So, in the text there is no hint of the 'sceptre' or 'lawgiver' not being a continuous governance. The words 'shall not depart' give me to understand that the governance is to be continuous and unbroken.

 

[2ndpillar]

What you say is not relevant to Psalm 22. The opening words were spoken by Jesus as he died on the cross. This should be enough to make one look again at how HE interpreted this Psalm.

The "son of man" was "fulfilling" the Law and the prophets (Matthew 5:17). David was actually "forsaken" by God for his sin (Psalm 22), the "son of man" was not "forsaken" (separated from God) and did his Father's will. All the nations who survive, will worship before the king (Zechariah 14:17), and the "king" will be My servant David (Ezekiel 37:24). The son of man (Matthew 24:30) will return as the seed of David. (Psalm 89:3-4). Yeshua knew the Law and the prophets and knew all that was to come. What the "son of man" didn't know was the "hour and the day" (Matthew 24:36). With respect to the millennium, he knew it would be on the 3rd day (on the 3rd millennium) (Hosea 6:2).

You said, “I have made a covenant with my chosen one,
I have sworn to David my servant,
4 ‘I will establish your line forever
and make your throne firm through all generations

 

[2ndpillar]

The temple is used by Jesus as a symbol of his own body. Clearly there has been no ruler in Judah since the temple was destroyed. The last rulers were not even kings, but High Priests working through the Sanhedrin.

Let's read the words of Genesis 49:10 again:
'The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be'.

So, in the text there is no hint of the 'sceptre' or 'lawgiver' not being a continuous governance. The words 'shall not depart' give me to understand that the governance is to be continuous and unbroken.

According to traditions, the sons of David were killed, yet the daughters were taken to Scotland by Isaiah, and the ancient throne on which Queen Elizabeth sat stems from that time. Right now, we are at the "end of the age" and the claimed holder of the keys of David, the pope, the proclaimed heir of Peter, is ready to "fall", and all hanging on to him will be "cut off" (Isaiah 22:15-25). The reigning Queen just died, and the non-heretical pope just died, and the traditionalist Jews are preparing to build the temple, which will probably bring the "surrounding nations" down upon their necks (Zechariah 14:1-3), and the result is the "Great tribulation", after which comes the "son of man" (Matthew 24:29-30), "after two days (2000 years)", on the "3rd day" (Hosea 6:2).

 

[2ndpillar]

Believe it or not, I visited that cave back in 1998, and what I found so striking is that there's a spring with a small waterfall feeding it right in front of it. It was a 118 F., so I did jump into the water.

The people who had to drink from it must have been extremely happy.

 

[Redemptionsong]

David was actually "forsaken" by God for his sin (Psalm 22), the "son of man" was not "forsaken" (separated from God) and did his Father's will.

I don't agree with this. When Jesus bore the sin of mankind in his own flesh upon the cross, he was separated from his Father. It was only for a short period, but it led to his death.

 

[101G]

Are you a contortionist by any chance?

what do my body have to do with the Word of God? instead of worrying if I'm a contortionist, you should be thanking God if he's a disciple of his.

Because I have not seen such a display of twisting in quite some time!

speaking of twisting ..... the word of God. some, not all Jews twist the Hebrew language to get the result THEY want, not the TRUTH, but their TRUTH, it's like different translations of the SAME ONE BIBLE, all say theirs are correct. ...... LOL, LOL, LOL, (smile).... what a joke.

As for Jesus gathering together, he didn't. After Jesus' time the Jews were scattered, not brought together. So if gathering the people together is supposed to be a sign that Jesus is Shiloh the opposite is proven.

"After Jesus' time the Jews were scattered?". ERROR, was not Jews from all nations under heaven in Jerusalem for Pentecost? only the persecution sent more away. and is not the Lord Jesus everywhere, he's just waiting for harvest time now......
and he will gather his wheat, (the saved, Jews and Gentiles) to his barn after the tares, the unsaved) are gathered first. ......... and then burned.

now, if you're not in Christ Jesus don't worry if it get a little hot, it'll be over soon..... as a song says, "it's getting hot in here" ..... (smile).

101G.

 

[Shaul]

The temple is used by Jesus as a symbol of his own body. Clearly there has been no ruler in Judah since the temple was destroyed. The last rulers were not even kings, but High Priests working through the Sanhedrin.

Let's read the words of Genesis 49:10 again:
'The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor the lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be'.

So, in the text there is no hint of the 'sceptre' or 'lawgiver' not being a continuous governance. The words 'shall not depart' give me to understand that the governance is to be continuous and unbroken.

Since Ezekiel describes a Third physical earthly Temple, Jesus is not the Temple.

Of course there were Jewish rulers after the Temple was destroyed. The last one was Bar Kokhba in 136 C.E. Nor were they priests. You are factually in error.

Since there were discontinuities in independent rule before Jesus' time (i.e. during the Babylonian exile) it is not possible to maintain that Beresheit 49 can be interpreted as continuous and uninterrupted. In addition scripture tells us explicitly that there would be long periods during which Israel would not have a king. (see Hosea)

 

[Shaul]

"After Jesus' time the Jews were scattered?". ERROR, was not Jews from all nations under heaven in Jerusalem for Pentecost? only the persecution sent more away. and is not the Lord Jesus everywhere, he's just waiting for harvest time now......

The Jews were certainly scattered more after Jesus' time. No, the Jews from all nations were certainly not gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost. At the time of Jesus most Jews didn't even live in the land of Israel. There were more in Babylon and Egypt.

Trying to have it that the gathering together is "spiritual" rather than actual physical does not work. The Prophets are quite clear that the gathering is a physical one.

Jews have been witnesses to Torah since it was given to us. Many empires, kingdoms and religions have come and gone. The Pharoahs, Medes, Babylonians, Hittites, Hellenists, Greeks and Romans have all come and gone. Each of them told the Jews that they had it wrong and that Torah was not true. At times they were powerful and the Jews have always been small. Yet today, they are gone, but the Jews remain. Now Christians tell the Jews, "You're wrong". They say Jews don't know their own scriptures. They claim to know what the scriptures "really" mean. But they are wrong, not the Jews.

You joke that I will regret it when I feel the "heat". Ignoring how that is decidedly unkind of you to wish that upon me, it assumes you have the truth. But like so many before, the Christians will one day learn that they were the ones that were wrong and the Jews had it right all along. When the genuine, actual moshiach comes, and it isn't Jesus of Nazareth, you will have much to answer for. On that day "he will astonish many". The kings of the nations shall "put their hands over their mouths" (in shame and astonishment). In scripture we are told to never add to nor take away from it. Yet Christians do exactly that. One day you will know this too.

 

[101G]

I don't agree with this. When Jesus bore the sin of mankind in his own flesh upon the cross, he was separated from his Father. It was only for a short period, but it led to his death.

Correct, don't agree with that. the word forsaking, (forsook), means leave, the present of Father in that body came out of the son, because the sins of the whole world will be laid on him. This word forsook is interesting. Forsook, or forsaking is the act of, or the allowing of one to be sacrifice. Note, to clearly see this, another word for, or words that are synonyms with the word forsook is, renounced, relinquished, “sacrificed”. Sacrificed is the word we are looking for. For the Lord God did provide for himself a sacrifice, (a lamb), yes the Lamb of God. John 1:29 "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". the Lord Jesus mission was to lay down his "NATURAL LIFE", BLOOD. for the blood atones for the soul. supportive scripture, Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

and the Lord Jesus blood was for the atonement of the whole World.

and with this atonement, of sacrifice, or DEATH, the Lord Jesus, the lamb of God, was made/design to suffer, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5 " Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross". And upon that death, it released, or relinquished, (that's what forsook means), the full power and attributes of God in human form. (see John 175). Glory to Jesus. No more blood to hinder the Power of God. now the same eternal Spirit, that is, and was, is now to come, the Holy Spirit. is Spirit in Glorified form in resurrected flesh. by forsaking the Son on the cross to die, God released the Full power of himself in flesh. this is the OFFICE of THE HOLY SPIRIT in Glorified Flesh. this is why he, the Son, the Ordinal Went to the Father, to be Glorified in the Spirit, as he was before the Wiorld and now in the form of a man. Glory to God.

they Just didn't know, (the Romans), which was in God's Holy Plan all alone to release, (crucified in Death), and risen in the full power of God in Flesh.. supportive scripture, Matthew 28:16 "Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them." Matthew 28:17 "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted." Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

so the FORSAKING was in God plan all alone, without it no NEW TESTAMENT, and NO "OFFICE of the HOLY SPIRIT" only God is GOOD, and GREAT.

keep up the Good work, and be not deceived. be blessed.

101G

 

[101G]

The Jews were certainly scattered more after Jesus' time. No, the Jews from all nations were certainly not gathered in Jerusalem for Pentecost. At the time of Jesus most Jews didn't even live in the land of Israel. There were more in Babylon and Egypt.

let's check the record, Acts 2:5 "And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven." BINGO. Acts 2:6 "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language." Acts 2:7 "And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?" Acts 2:8 "And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?" Acts 2:9 "Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,"Acts 2:10 "Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,"Acts 2:11 "Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." Acts 2:12 "And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?" Acts 2:13 "Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine."

well the record doesn't agree with you.

101G.

 

[101G]

Since Ezekiel describes a Third physical earthly Temple, Jesus is not the Temple.

ERROR. The temple of God is the place where God dwells among human beings, which the Old Testament scriptures promises, is the body of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:15 "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."1 Corinthians 6:16 "What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh."1 Corinthians 6:17 "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."1 Corinthians 6:18 "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."1 Corinthians 6:19 "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"1 Corinthians 6:20 "For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's."

2 Corinthians 6:16 "And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."

when did God say this? Leviticus 26:11 "And I will set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you." Leviticus 26:12 "And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people."

question, "if God is setting his tabernacle with us why are you building another TEMPLE?"

101G.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Since Ezekiel describes a Third physical earthly Temple, Jesus is not the Temple.

Of course there were Jewish rulers after the Temple was destroyed. The last one was Bar Kokhba in 136 C.E. Nor were they priests. You are factually in error.

Since there were discontinuities in independent rule before Jesus' time (i.e. during the Babylonian exile) it is not possible to maintain that Beresheit 49 can be interpreted as continuous and uninterrupted. In addition scripture tells us explicitly that there would be long periods during which Israel would not have a king. (see Hosea)

Once again, we may be faced with an ambiguous text, but the references are not just to the continuing 'sceptre' (kings), but also to the 'lawgivers' (religious authorities).

The genealogies of Jesus found in Matthew and Luke demonstrate that he alone fits the credentials of the Son of David/Son of God. He appears to be the only candidate able to circumvent the curse on Jeconiah's seed.

It does not go unnoticed that even the commentators in the Talmud refer to 'Shiloh' as the Messiah. So, we are still left asking whether the Messiah of the Jews is, in fact, Jesus.

Ezekiel's temple is distinct from the first two, and is described as a house of prayer for all nations. I don't see that the temple he envisioned as the one Jews presently plan for Jerusalem. [Isaiah 60:7; 66:23; Psalms 51:18,19; Zech.14:16,17] To my understanding, the millennial sacrifices will look back, and be a memorial to the atoning work of Jesus on the cross.

 

[2ndpillar]

I don't agree with this. When Jesus bore the sin of mankind in his own flesh upon the cross, he was separated from his Father. It was only for a short period, but it led to his death.

"Everyone dies for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30). Supposedly someone was scourged and wore a crown of thorns prior to being on the cross. Apparently 1 Peter 2:24 is not correct, as the Gentile church has not "died to sin" and been "healed" due to the "cross". The Gentile church, the "flock" of Zechariah 11:7 was "doomed for slaughter", and "pastured" by the two "staffs"/"shepherds", Peter and Paul, and apparently its "many" members are on a wide path to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13). Apparently according to James, it is the prayer of the righteous which heals the sick, and "raise him up" (James 5:15-16), much like the prayers of Elijah. Apparently, God doesn't hear the prayers of the "wicked"/"sinners" (members of the Gentile church). (John 9:31)

 

[2ndpillar]

The genealogies of Jesus found in Matthew and Luke demonstrate that he alone fits the credentials of the Son of David/Son of God. He appears to be the only candidate able to circumvent the curse on Jeconiah's seed.

I don't know. I kind of thought that the genealogies of Matthew and Luke didn't correspond with each other. Which one is based on Mary, as Joseph was supposedly, according to the Gentile church, not the father? If so, how was the seed passed down through Mary?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I don't know. I kind of thought that the genealogies of Matthew and Luke didn't correspond with each other. Which one is based on Mary, as Joseph was supposedly, according to the Gentile church, not the father? If so, how was the seed passed down through Mary?

Matthew's Gospel gives us Joseph's royal line, and Luke gives us Mary's line (through her father, Heli).
Mary's line is from Adam, through David, to Nathan, and is the natural line of descent through David rather than the royal line.

The impressive part about the two genealogies is that they are interdependent. Matthew's line, by itself, is a cursed line, but when Joseph marries Mary the firstborn child born to Mary becomes a legitimate heir to the throne of David. The son of Mary is of David's natural line, made royal and legal by marriage to Joseph.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Not sure what your point is here. The new covenant is not the same as the old.

The new covenant says jesus is the ONLY way. Thus it divides humanity just as the old covenant.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

My own opinion is to say that God is one, and the way to truth is through His only Son.

My opinion is that .Only. is a political redaction.

 

[3rdAngel]

The new covenant says jesus is the ONLY way. Thus it divides humanity just as the old covenant.

Sorry I still do not understand how what you posted is relevant to what I posted earlier. Could you explain yourself a little further? Many thanks