Israel is a racist endeavor

[exchemist]

Your point is perfectly correct. The issues are separate. But often they are not, they
become conflated by people who dress up antisemitism as mere statements against
Israel. This pernicious racism was dressed up in the past too. People weren't killing
Jews because they are Jews but because of Jerusalem, or the plague, or Jesus, or the
world's banks or even sacrificed Christian boys. And some Shia Arab in France who
attacks a Jew might say it's because of Israel's policies. But chances are he won't attack
a Sunni Arab for his government's policies. And as Nikki Haley would say it, something
becomes antisemitic when it attacks Israel's policies, BUT NO-ONE ELSES.

OK I see what you mean. Yes it is of course possible for antisemites to latch on these actions of Israel because they serve their general agenda. And I also agree that quite a few Arab countries have become antisemitic in outlook - largely I suggest due to the conflict in the Holy Land. So I would completely agree that we in the West who think Israel needs to be criticised must be careful in our choice of language, so that we make crystal clear that we are not tarring Jews as such with the same brush as Netanyahu's government.

 

[Nakosis]

No the US actually bribed these nations decades ago to shift many from the Soviet sphere to an America one.

Thanks for the correction...
Ok, rhetoric, force of arms or bribery.

 

[exchemist]

So it isn’t a calumny against those that illegitimately do? Oh, and who decides which are legitimate or not?

We all decide for ourselves, based on how the argument is framed, just as for any other hot issue. The antisemite will eventually show his true colours because he will show he is not relying on reasonable geopolitical points but on irrational prejudice and lies.

And thus, yes of course, there is a difference between legitimate and illegitimate criticism of Israel's policies re Palestine and Palestinians. There is, if I'm not mistaken, plenty of criticism of those policies from within Israel itself. And a fair amount, from some Arab countries for example, that is based on fairly naked hatred of Jews.

 

[PruePhillip]

OK I see what you mean. Yes it is of course possible for antisemites to latch on these actions of Israel because they serve their general agenda. And I also agree that quite a few Arab countries have become antisemitic in outlook - largely I suggest due to the conflict in the Holy Land. So I would completely agree that we in the West who think Israel needs to be criticised must be careful in our choice of language, so that we make crystal clear that we are not tarring Jews as such with the same brush as Netanyahu's government.

Yes, we can learn from one another on this forum.
I have a personal dislike of the Jewish Settler - a pox on them all.
But I am also bothered to see, in Arab airports, books like Mein Kampf
and Protocols of Zion.

 

[exchemist]

Yes, we can learn from one another on this forum.
I have a personal dislike of the Jewish Settler - a pox on them all.
But I am also bothered to see, in Arab airports, books like Mein Kampf
and Protocols of Zion.

Well exactly. The key thing it seems to me is to treat each argument on its merits and not jump to conclusions about the motivations of the speaker.

In fact, I think one of the lessons for us all, from the rise of the far right at the moment, is that well-meaning attempts to make certain types of uncomfortable discussion off-limits can backfire nastily.

 

[Stevicus]

Speaking as a Brit who has lived in the US and travelled in the Middle East a fair bit, I must I say I encounter this confusion fairly regularly among Americans. There is in the US a powerful Israel lobby, which does its best to mix the two things up as much as possible. Walt and Mearsheimer wrote a book about it, which I have read and which rang very true to me. (The most amusing thing about that book was that one of the authors got told (1) there was no such thing as an "Israel lobby" and (2) if he continued to write about it, they would make sure he never got another academic post! )

I think most countries have some kind of "lobby" where they advocate for their countries' interests when it comes to US policies towards their country. That just seems normal to me, just as we have representatives in other countries to advocate for our interests.

I guess the real question is just how powerful the "Israel lobby" happens to be. I've known of some people who really are anti-Semites who play this up quite a bit with grandiose conspiracy theories.

But I've also known quite a few Christians who see that Israel and the US have some kind of special role to play in biblical prophecy. It's all about the Holy Land in their eyes.

The trouble is that some of these lobby organisations claim, quite wrongly, to speak on behalf of all Jewish people, which, if one is not careful, actually causes antisemitism, because people can be tricked into thinking that's true.

We get the same sort of phenomenon in the UK, with muslim organisations that claim to speak for British muslims, but have been taken over by political islam, which is actually just a political project and not part of the religion at all.

I've noticed this among other groups as well, often if they're speaking on behalf of an oppressed class (or what they perceive to be oppressed). I can understand it to some extent, since having a sense of solidarity and unity among an oppressed group can be an effective weapon against oppression. On the other hand, if one is not careful, the same group mentality and mindset can degenerate into the same kind of oppression which they initially formed to fight against.

This seems to be what the main problem is today. Anti-Semitism has been seen as causing centuries of persecution and atrocities committed against Jewish people, while racism and colonialism have caused centuries of misery and atrocities committed against the peoples of Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and the Americas.

As a result, it appears to have made individual ethnic/religious groups keenly aware of their own identity, with the concurrent side effect of potentially excluding members of other ethnic/religious groups who might have been just as oppressed as any other group. Some people scornfully refer to this phenomenon as the "oppression olympics," but there are those who seem to make it their life's work to convince everyone that their group is far more persecuted and oppressed than any other group.

 

[exchemist]

I think most countries have some kind of "lobby" where they advocate for their countries' interests when it comes to US policies towards their country. That just seems normal to me, just as we have representatives in other countries to advocate for our interests.

I guess the real question is just how powerful the "Israel lobby" happens to be. I've known of some people who really are anti-Semites who play this up quite a bit with grandiose conspiracy theories.

But I've also known quite a few Christians who see that Israel and the US have some kind of special role to play in biblical prophecy. It's all about the Holy Land in their eyes.



I've noticed this among other groups as well, often if they're speaking on behalf of an oppressed class (or what they perceive to be oppressed). I can understand it to some extent, since having a sense of solidarity and unity among an oppressed group can be an effective weapon against oppression. On the other hand, if one is not careful, the same group mentality and mindset can degenerate into the same kind of oppression which they initially formed to fight against.

This seems to be what the main problem is today. Anti-Semitism has been seen as causing centuries of persecution and atrocities committed against Jewish people, while racism and colonialism have caused centuries of misery and atrocities committed against the peoples of Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and the Americas.

As a result, it appears to have made individual ethnic/religious groups keenly aware of their own identity, with the concurrent side effect of potentially excluding members of other ethnic/religious groups who might have been just as oppressed as any other group. Some people scornfully refer to this phenomenon as the "oppression olympics," but there are those who seem to make it their life's work to convince everyone that their group is far more persecuted and oppressed than any other group.

Yes all fair points. All countries lobby for sure. The specific issue with the Israel lobby in the US is that cheap accusations of antisemitism are on occasion used as a tool to snuff out political criticism.

I had not heard the term "oppression olympics" but it strikes a chord, certainly. I suppose it is all varieties of identity politics, which is one of the scourges of our time.

 

[Mister Emu]

Never could figure out this "there's no such thing as race" business.

It is because of how the concept of race has been abused historically. It's a scare word; so "race" isn't real, even though we know that there are divergences of development based on regionally isolated populations(which is what the idea of race is). The scientific community recognizes real genetic differences between what were traditionally racially categorized populations.

It's rather like saying there are not different breeds of dog.

 

[Shad]

Thanks for the correction...
Ok, rhetoric, force of arms or bribery.

Not force of arms, arms sales.

 

[PruePhillip]

... while racism and colonialism have caused centuries of misery and atrocities committed against the peoples of Africa, Asia, the Middle East, and the Americas.

At the risk of getting off topic. It's a strange that nations that were under colonialism seem
to have done better than those who never saw it.
India wasn't even a nation until Britain arrived. It's various groups either engaged in empire,
or were subject to it. The wealth of the British Raj was when leaders no longer had to pay
for armies, and spent the wealth on themselves. And today India had a Westminster style
of democracy, railways, industry and they don't even burn brides or engage in much caste
persecution.

 

[PruePhillip]

There is no difference between an African and an Asian except by the difference between language and ethnic group. An ethnic group is a group that has members of the same or similar national and cultural traditions. Race is not recognized by the scientific immunity because there is no difference between humans. We are not of a different species and because of that we are able to breed with each other. And because of that, we are of the same species therefore there is no real concept such as race.

As much as I respect science - I dispute the claim there is no such thing as race.
I could do a scientific test:
Get 10,000 native Somalis and 10,000 native Chinese to present themselves.
No mention of culture, no checking for language.
I maintain that I could probably discern which is African and which is Asian with
close to 100% reliability.
Methinks this is race belief is a "social construct" and not science at all.

 

[rosends]

As much as I respect science - I dispute the claim there is no such thing as race.
I could do a scientific test:
Get 10,000 native Somalis and 10,000 native Chinese to present themselves.
No mention of culture, no checking for language.
I maintain that I could probably discern which is African and which is Asian with
close to 100% reliability.
Methinks this is race belief is a "social construct" and not science at all.

this may be true, but if race is always visible and a clear marker, then, if your two groups interbreed, what race are the children if they share characteristics? Or if they develop new hybrids? Or have neither (or neither is visible)? Which characteristics and how many make someone a member of the race? Placing race at the feet of physical appearance just shows that race is a construct that can be deconstructed, not a hard and fast rule that is endemic to the human species.

 

[PruePhillip]

this may be true, but if race is always visible and a clear marker, then, if your two groups interbreed, what race are the children if they share characteristics? Or if they develop new hybrids? Or have neither (or neither is visible)? Which characteristics and how many make someone a member of the race? Placing race at the feet of physical appearance just shows that race is a construct that can be deconstructed, not a hard and fast rule that is endemic to the human species.

If a Somali and Chinese have a child it would appear as a dark Asian, perhaps, or its reverse.
Race DOES exist. There is a race of Chinese, there is a race of Somalis.
You can call it a "breed" if you like, like in dogs, but it aint no "construct"

As an aside. Once people said there was "no such thing as a Jew" but now we can not only
identify Jews genetically but for some Jews we can pinpoint which of the 12 tribes of the Old
Testament they came from.

 

[rosends]

If a Somali and Chinese have a child it would appear as a dark Asian, perhaps, or its reverse.
Race DOES exist. There is a race of Chinese, there is a race of Somalis.
You can call it a "breed" if you like, like in dogs, but it aint no "construct"

I won't call it a breed as breeds seem to have genetic differences while races do not. Saying that the child would appear one way or the other doesn't answer any of the questions I posed about "racial" identity.

As an aside. Once people said there was "no such thing as a Jew" but now we can not only
identify Jews genetically but for some Jews we can pinpoint which of the 12 tribes of the Old
Testament they came from.

Actually, you can't. You can find DNA markers which seem to correlate with geography and some familial connection, but one cannot identify Jews by DNA simply because the laws of Judaism allow for conversion and one cannot change his DNA. In isolated cases, the rabbinic authorities have allowed some DNA information to supplement other facts to cement, but not establish, Jewish lineage. Shared ancestry does not equate to identifying either religion or tribal affiliation as neither is definitively tied to DNA.

 

[PruePhillip]

I won't call it a breed as breeds seem to have genetic differences while races do not. Saying that the child would appear one way or the other doesn't answer any of the questions I posed about "racial" identity.

Actually, you can't. You can find DNA markers which seem to correlate with geography and some familial connection, but one cannot identify Jews by DNA simply because the laws of Judaism allow for conversion and one cannot change his DNA. In isolated cases, the rabbinic authorities have allowed some DNA information to supplement other facts to cement, but not establish, Jewish lineage. Shared ancestry does not equate to identifying either religion or tribal affiliation as neither is definitively tied to DNA.

I am part Jewish. Found out from DNA. Yes, you can become a "Jew" through conversion, but that's
not what I am talking about. There exists a genetic line, for instance, for the lineage of Jews who were
of the ancient tribe of Levi. And that's incredible.
You can get people like the pygmy who have very short life spans, and are short of stature. You can get
Zulus who are unusually large for Africans. And you can get the Khoisan with their strange tuffed short hair. These are sub-races of the larger Negroid race. If humans were domestic animals you would call them "breeds" due to their distinctions.
Saying there's no such thing as race begs the question - how do you define "race" ?
Are you American? Is so, bear in mind that in the USA this is largely a political thing - and its racist
people driving racial divides.

 

[rosends]

I am part Jewish. Found out from DNA. Yes, you can become a "Jew" through conversion, but that's
not what I am talking about. There exists a genetic line, for instance, for the lineage of Jews who were
of the ancient tribe of Levi. And that's incredible.
You can get people like the pygmy who have very short life spans, and are short of stature. You can get
Zulus who are unusually large for Africans. And you can get the Khoisan with their strange tuffed short hair. These are sub-races of the larger Negroid race. If humans were domestic animals you would call them "breeds" due to their distinctions.
Saying there's no such thing as race begs the question - how do you define "race" ?
Are you American? Is so, bear in mind that in the USA this is largely a political thing - and its racist
people driving racial divides.

There is no "part Jewish." That's the point. Judaism is passed through the mother which gives it the appearance of a genetic/racial marker, but it isn't.
As to the question of the tribe of Levi, what there actually is is a communal tradition (called a "chazakah") which we neither confirm nor deny in practical application on the basis of genetic tests. As to what determines "race" I don't know if anything does. I recall way back in college discussing the question of race vs. ethnicity vs a number of other words. Different disciplines approached each one differently until it was apparent that there were no hard and fast rules because the terms were fluid and dependent on the agenda of the person using them.

 

[PruePhillip]

There is no "part Jewish." That's the point. Judaism is passed through the mother which gives it the appearance of a genetic/racial marker, but it isn't.
As to the question of the tribe of Levi, what there actually is is a communal tradition (called a "chazakah") which we neither confirm nor deny in practical application on the basis of genetic tests. As to what determines "race" I don't know if anything does. I recall way back in college discussing the question of race vs. ethnicity vs a number of other words. Different disciplines approached each one differently until it was apparent that there were no hard and fast rules because the terms were fluid and dependent on the agenda of the person using them.

Methinks that "agenda" comes from the politicized humanities.
Negroid is a race, so too is Mongoloid and Caucasoid.
If they aint races then they are breeds. But they aint the same.
There's a gene test for Levites - Google Haplogroup R1a1a (R-M17)
Levites come from the Cohanem line of genetic Jews.

 

[rosends]

There's a gene test for Levites - Google Haplogroup R1a1a (R-M17)
Levites come from the Cohanem line of genetic Jews.

again, that's a scientific claim that has no bearing on religious law or identity.
https://www.torahmusings.com/2010/10/kohanic-lineage/