Israel and the soon return of Yeshua Christ

[sandy whitelinger]

The type of wisdom I depend on is in considering all possibilites measured against a broad range of potential causes, influences, motivations, and likelihoods. I accept or reject nothing out of hand, but rather utilize knowledge and experience covering and bridging a myriad of fields, disciplines, and areas of knowledge in order to ascertain as objective of an anlysis as possible for understanding the most consistent and likely explanations for things.

Yawn.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

...History.

What does a Michael Jackson album have to do with this?

 

[Yahyaa Waahid]

So, if I do good works, it means my scholarship on ancient history is validated? Somehow? No, one scholar doesn't mean much of anything, considering the religious biases present. This is not real scholarship, but religious propaganda.

I didn't say "good works." John 10:37-38 describes works that prove that God is in a man; perhaps a better word would be "miracles." You must read more carefully and be more careful about making interpretations of what people say.

Peace.
Yahyaa Waahid

 

[Yahyaa Waahid]

I guess if you start with the answers already secured in your religious beliefs, there is no point in discussion. You already have the answers and will reject whatever challenges those.

Aside from that, this understanding is a mythological understanding, written in heaven by mythological creatures and whatnot. That fine for you. I cannot think in terms like this. I have too much exposure to modern scholarship.

LOL. Nothing is mythological about the 24 Elders. They are 24 Men who write the Scriptures, and perhaps do other things as well.

If works do testify of a man, then we can see from the state of man that the scholarship of this world's scholars is not anything too special.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

My goodness. You mean there are Christians who don't read the Bible the same as each other? How can this be, when the scriptures speak for themselves? Say it's not so.

Yes, it is true. Many so called Christians have the remarkable ability to inject, at random, their wild concepts of prophetic nonsense. It is hard for me to read Revelation under the precepts that John was talking about our current time when so many Christians were being slaughtered.

 

[metis]

I said altered the content, not "context." And my proof is the work of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad among the American so-called Negroes. Jesus said:

"(37)If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. (38)But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." John 10:37-38

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the teacher that the Qur'an, which says that the Jews altered the original content of Bible, is a true book. And his work of resurrecting the American so-called Negroes (spiritually & mentally) is the proof that God is in the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad is in God.

If you have never heard of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, he is the man who is the teacher of Minister Louis Farrakhan, and, he is the man whom Minister Farrakhan is the National Representative of. Their group, which I am not a member of, is called the Nation of Islam and they have a website @ NOI.org - The Nation of Islam Official Website . If you would like to hear a lecture by Minister Farrakhan, go to: The Time And What Must Be Done Series by Minister Louis Farrakhan at 6PM any Saturday for the rest of this year. They also have a website for their weekly publication, the Final Call Newspaper, @ FinalCall.com News - Uncompromised National and World News and Perspectives .

Peace & Blessings to you.
Yahyaa Waahid

Sorry, I did mean to write "content". As far as the rest is concerned, that's opinion-- not evidence.

Shalom

 

[Windwalker]

Yes, it is true. Many so called Christians have the remarkable ability to inject, at random, their wild concepts of prophetic nonsense. It is hard for me to read Revelation under the precepts that John was talking about our current time when so many Christians were being slaughtered.

I have been refraining from throwing the book of Revelation itself on the table for examination. But I will here. When we look at Revelation, most people just assume it was automatically destined to be one of the books of the NT, via some well-greased slide down the inspiration shoot towards canonization. Most do not know that this book was nearly thrown into the heap of the other rejected Christian texts in use during this process, and not by just a few, but by some very prominent figures in early Church history.

Firstly, it is not written by John the Apostle. It is written by another John. John of Patmos is what they call him. The writing style is not even close to Gospel John. Furthermore, it has a very Jewish-oriented bent calling down the heavens against Rome (which was what it is all about in its all its cryptic coded messages, a common practice of the day when criticizing Rome).

The reason it ended up in the Bible is because it proved itself so flexible politically. How people interpreted it evolved over the years, and yet again it is proving itself up to it's real strength of fitting whatever people want it to say and wielding so much power to their arguments through apocalyptic decrees against whomever that those reading it want it to be. That's the Book of Revelation. The ever-useful tool of the prevalent ideology.

So much for being "revelation".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have been refraining from throwing the book of Revelation itself on the table for examination.

Such constraint is to be commended. :clap

 

[Windwalker]

Such constrain is to be commended. :clap

I'm sorry, I couldn't help myself.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

If you read Revelations with absolutely no context of when it was written, it will come off as a frightening "things to come" or a guy who had way to much fun with the peyote. If you read it with the understanding of the time though...it's a rather genre savvy FU and political rage against the empire...with some peyote thrown in.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

And you can believe whatever you like. Yet, according to the biblical scriptures a true prophet of God must be 100% accurate. So tarot card readers and other religious or mythical predictors prove themselves false even with one mistaken prediction.

And all of the prophets have been 100% correct always?

 

[InChrist]

I have been refraining from throwing the book of Revelation itself on the table for examination. But I will here. When we look at Revelation, most people just assume it was automatically destined to be one of the books of the NT, via some well-greased slide down the inspiration shoot towards canonization. Most do not know that this book was nearly thrown into the heap of the other rejected Christian texts in use during this process, and not by just a few, but by some very prominent figures in early Church history.

Firstly, it is not written by John the Apostle. It is written by another John. John of Patmos is what they call him. The writing style is not even close to Gospel John. Furthermore, it has a very Jewish-oriented bent calling down the heavens against Rome (which was what it is all about in its all its cryptic coded messages, a common practice of the day when criticizing Rome).

The reason it ended up in the Bible is because it proved itself so flexible politically. How people interpreted it evolved over the years, and yet again it is proving itself up to it's real strength of fitting whatever people want it to say and wielding so much power to their arguments through apocalyptic decrees against whomever that those reading it want it to be. That's the Book of Revelation. The ever-useful tool of the prevalent ideology.

So much for being "revelation".

I think you forgot to mention that these are all your opinions.

 

[InChrist]

And all of the prophets have been 100% correct always?

I believe the prophecies contained in the Bible are 100% accurate.

 

[Windwalker]

I think you forgot to mention that these are all your opinions.

Which happens to be based on modern scholars who do the research. In my opinion, their learned research has revealed things worthy of our understanding and consideration in how we too view these things. It's my opinion, it's better to be receptive to scholarship than ignoring it in favor or our prejudices.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I believe the prophecies contained in the Bible are 100% accurate.

So all the ones that have not come to pass will simply come to pass one day? Is that the general stance you take I assume?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I have been refraining from throwing the book of Revelation itself on the table for examination. But I will here. When we look at Revelation, most people just assume it was automatically destined to be one of the books of the NT, via some well-greased slide down the inspiration shoot towards canonization. Most do not know that this book was nearly thrown into the heap of the other rejected Christian texts in use during this process, and not by just a few, but by some very prominent figures in early Church history.

Well said and I would like to add the book of John was also a text that might have hit the cutting room floor.

Firstly, it is not written by John the Apostle. It is written by another John. John of Patmos is what they call him. The writing style is not even close to Gospel John. Furthermore, it has a very Jewish-oriented bent calling down the heavens against Rome (which was what it is all about in its all its cryptic coded messages, a common practice of the day when criticizing Rome).

Interesting.

The reason it ended up in the Bible is because it proved itself so flexible politically. How people interpreted it evolved over the years, and yet again it is proving itself up to it's real strength of fitting whatever people want it to say and wielding so much power to their arguments through apocalyptic decrees against whomever that those reading it want it to be. That's the Book of Revelation. The ever-useful tool of the prevalent ideology.

So much for being "revelation".

LOL! It is a commonly misinterpreted book. Without a firm grip on Jewish symbolism, the western world will cookie cut themselves a dramatic end day scenario that motivates their base to some action. But hey, the Millerites had to drink that Koolaid twice before they turned to the fledgling Seventh Day Adventist's and the Witness's. Some people never learn.

 

[InChrist]

Which happens to be based on modern scholars who do the research. In my opinion, their learned research has revealed things worthy of our understanding and consideration in how we too view these things. It's my opinion, it's better to be receptive to scholarship than ignoring it in favor or our prejudices.

I would like to highlight what you said above...based on modern scholars. Personally, I prefer to believe the scholarship and opinions of those near contemporaries who were closer to the situation than the modern-day scholars.


" It was the almost universal belief of the ancient church from the middle of the second century that the author was the apostle John. Justin and Hippolytus at Rome, Tertullian in North Africa, Clement and Origen of Alexandria, Irenaeus of Lyons, all spoke of this John as one of the Lord’s apostles (or disciples). Modern scholarship, however, has remained unconvinced, preferring to identify the John of Revelation rather with John Mark, John the Elder, an otherwise unknown John, or a pseudonymous writer claiming for his work the prestige attaching to the name of the apostle.” (The Interpreters Dictionary of the Bible, p. 60.)

-------

"Also, early church historians attributed the book of Revelation to John the apostle as well.
Justin Martyr [Dialogue with Trypho, p. 308] (a.d. 139–161) quotes from the Apocalypse, as John the apostle’s work, the prophecy of the millennium of the saints, to be followed by the general resurrection and judgment. This testimony of Justin is referred to also by Eusebius [Ecclesiastical History, 4.18]. Justin Martyr, in the early part of the second century, held his controversy with Trypho, a learned Jew, at Ephesus, where John had been living thirty or thirty-five years before: he says that “the Revelation had been given to John, one of the twelve apostles of Christ.”1"

http://carm.org/who-wrote-revelations

 

[hexler]

I believe the prophecies contained in the Bible are 100% accurate.

If they are accurate then I have some quotations for you:


◄ 1 Thessalonians 5:2 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

New Living Translation
For you know quite well that the day of the Lord's return will come unexpectedly, like a thief in the night.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

5:1-5 It is needless or useless to ask about the particular time of Christ's coming. Christ did not reveal this to the apostles. There are times and seasons for us to work in, and these are our duty and interest to know and observe; but as to the time when we must give up our account, we know it not, nor is it needful that we should. The coming of Christ will be a great surprise to men. Our Lord himself said so. As the hour of death is the same to each person that the judgment will be to mankind in general, so the same remarks answer for both. Christ's coming will be terrible to the ungodly. Their destruction will overtake them while they dream of happiness, and please themselves with vain amusements. There will be no means to escape the terror or the punishment of that day. This day will be a happy day to the righteous. They are not in darkness; they are the children of the light. It is the happy condition of all true Christians. But how many are speaking peace and safety to themselves, over whose heads utter destruction is hovering! Let us endeavour to awaken ourselves and each other, and guard against our spiritual enemies.

Pulpit Commentary

Verse 2. - For yourselves know perfectly; namely, not from Scripture, nor from oral tradition, but from the teaching of the apostle when in Thessalonica. That the day of the Lord. "The day of the Lord" is a common Old Testament expression, denoting the coming of the Divine judgments (Joel 1:15; Joel 2:1); and by the phrase here is meant, not the destruction of Jerusalem, nor the day of one's death, but the day of the Lord's advent, when Christ shall descend from heaven in glory for the resurrection of the dead and the judgment of the world. The idea of judgment is contained in the term "day." So cometh as a thief in the night. The same comparison is used by our Lord himself (Matthew 24:43; Luke 12:39), and the very words are employed by Peter (2 Peter 3:10). The point of resemblance is evidently the unexpectedness and suddenness of the coming. The thief comes upon people in the night season, when they are asleep and unprepared; so, in a similar manner, when Christ comes, he will find the world unprepared and not expecting his advent. The ancient Fathers inferred from this passage that Christ would come to judgment in the night season, and hence they instituted vigils, or night watches. Some, still more precisely, fixed the coming on Easter night, from the analogy of the deliverance of the Israelites from Egypt on the paschal evening.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

For yourselves know perfectly,.... With great exactness and accuracy, with great clearness and perspicuity, as a certain truth, which was made plain and evident to them, and about which there could be no question; and which perfect knowledge they had, either from the words of Christ, Matthew 24:42, or from the ministration of the apostle and his fellow labourers, when among them:

that the day of the Lord; of the Lord Jesus, when he will show himself to be King of kings, and Lord of lords, and the Judge of the whole earth; and which is sometimes styled the day of the Son of man, and the day of God, for Christ will appear then most gloriously, both in his divine and human nature; the day of redemption, that is, of the body from the grave, and from corruption and mortality; and the last day in which will be the resurrection of the dead, and the day of judgment, in which Christ will come to judge the quick and dead: and which

so cometh as a thief in the night; at an unawares, and the Lord himself in that day will so come, Revelation 3:3 respect is had not to the character of the thief, nor to the end of his coming; but to the manner of it, in the dark, indiscernibly, suddenly, and when not thought of and looked for; and such will be the coming of Christ, it will be sudden, and unknown before hand, and when least thought of and expected: and since the Thessalonians knew this full well, it was needless for the apostle to write about the time and season of it; which they were sensible of, could no more be known and fixed, than the coming of a thief into anyone of their houses.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

2. as a thief in the night—The apostles in this image follow the parable of their Lord, expressing how the Lord's coming shall take men by surprise (Mt 24:43; 2Pe 3:10). "The night is wherever there is quiet unconcern" [Bengel]. "At midnight" (perhaps figurative: to some parts of the earth it will be literal night), Mt 25:6. The thief not only gives no notice of his approach but takes all precaution to prevent the household knowing of it. So the Lord (Re 16:15). Signs will precede the coming, to confirm the patient hope of the watchful believer; but the coming itself shall be sudden at last (Mt 24:32-36; Lu 21:25-32, 35).

1 Thessalonians 5:2 Additional Commentaries
Context
The Day of the Lord
1Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.…
Cross References
Luke 21:34
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap.

1 Corinthians 1:8
He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:4
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

2 Thessalonians 2:2
not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us--whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter--asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Revelation 3:3
Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

Revelation 16:15
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

know.

Jeremiah 23:20 The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and …

the day.

Matthew 24:42-44 Watch therefore: for you know not what hour your Lord does come…

Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour wherein …

Mark 13:34,35 For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his …

Luke 12:39,40 And this know, that if the manager of the house had known what hour …

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the …

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and hold fast, …

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and keeps...


My own comment: When it is said, that it is useless to think about the time when He comes again then why was there such a great Awakening Movement in the 19. century ?

 

[Windwalker]

I would like to highlight what you said above...based on modern scholars. Personally, I prefer to believe the scholarship and opinions of those near contemporaries who were closer to the situation than the modern-day scholars.

This is a poor argument. Why bother having any scholarship at all today, if people 2000 years are to be taken as the definitive word on all these matters? It can hardly be said that just because they were only a couple hundred years away from the origins of this that they therefore had better information. That is not a valid assumption to make. What we have access to today is actually greater than what they did. We have greater tools or research available to us. A broader base of knowledge to work from. A greater understanding of literature, culture, transmissions of texts, the evolution of mythmaking, and so on.

That they believed things as they said is understandable, given the limitations of what they had available to them, and the manner in which things came to them. There simply is no comparison between the two. Being closer in time, is not all that meaningful. And furthermore, modern sholars are in fact very well aware of what these earlier scholars (or church fathers) believed, and the basis upon which they did. They are not ignorant of this. They take it into account in what they see and say.

No, the majority of modern scholars recognize that these are not the same authors. That's just the way it is. And I consider that more reliable.

 

[InChrist]

This is a poor argument. Why bother having any scholarship at all today, if people 2000 years are to be taken as the definitive word on all these matters? It can hardly be said that just because they were only a couple hundred years away from the origins of this that they therefore had better information. That is not a valid assumption to make. What we have access to today is actually greater than what they did. We have greater tools or research available to us. A broader base of knowledge to work from. A greater understanding of literature, culture, transmissions of texts, the evolution of mythmaking, and so on.

That they believed things as they said is understandable, given the limitations of what they had available to them, and the manner in which things came to them. There simply is no comparison between the two. Being closer in time, is not all that meaningful. And furthermore, modern sholars are in fact very well aware of what these earlier scholars (or church fathers) believed, and the basis upon which they did. They are not ignorant of this. They take it into account in what they see and say.

No, the majority of modern scholars recognize that these are not the same authors. That's just the way it is. And I consider that more reliable.

I never said that modern scholars are not aware of what the earlier church fathers believed about the scriptures, they have just chosen to reject the views of those who were more closely associated with the writings and events and who believed the accuracy of the scriptures. If you prefer to accept modern scholarship which often has the blatant objective of discrediting the authority of the scriptures and attacking the supernatural revelations then that is your prerogative, although I think by doing so you will miss out on the communication God is expressing for those who seek to know Him. For myself, I accept God's word as is and that includes the prophecies concerning the soon return of Christ.