Israel and the Qur'an

[leibowde84]

That was before the Jews started killing prophets and left the truth by breaking the covenant. Then the wrath of Allah descended upon them. That is because they said with pride " we killed the son of Mary" pbuh and they beheaded John the Baptist and his father without right.

And when prophet Muhammad pbuh came hey said how can we follow an arab?! So arrogance made them flee from the straight path.

Save it for the book burning, Adolf.

 

[TashaN]

First of all, the verses talk about sons of Israel, not Jews. We all know that not any Jew is automatically from the sons of Israel. Secondly, the land doesn't belong to any but Allah, he give it to whom he pleases whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims.

It seems to me from reading the Quran that sons of Israel were being rewarded by Allah only when they obey him and follow the Prophets he was sending to them, and he was punishing them when they were not doing so.

Interestingly enough, most of the Quran talks about Moses and sons of Israel because whatever happened to them also can happen to us Muslims of today anytime we stop obeying God and stop following his guidance. Prophet Mohamed already told us we are going to go through what those before us have gone through (sons of Israel, Christians, etc).

Obeying God doesn't mean only going to the mosque but it means spreading justice and having mercy amongst each other and toward others, which many or most Muslims currently lack today.

Unless we go back to what Allah want us to be, we will remain miserable and divided because Allah may allow non-Muslims to win and prosper if they were just and may strip lands and authority from Muslims who are unjust.

Therefore, lands being given to sons of Israel in the Quran doesn't mean it will be permanent and even the ones given to Muslims of today also are not permanent. No nation has any ultimate and unconditional promise except with the fruit of their doings and obedience to Allah.

 

[TashaN]

lol, just now i have realized that i replied twice to the OP.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Jews broke the Covenants made with Abraham and Moses:

Circumcision/Identity
Circumcision was the sign of Covenants made with Abraham:
"Being circumcised is not a condition of being Jewish. Girls do not need to be circumcised to receive the gifts of covenant, i.e., being bat-mitzvahed. A boy is Jewish if his mother is Jewish from the moment he is born. In fact:

• A boy may be excused from circumcision permanently if his health would be endangered by it (for example, hemophilia).
• Jewish boys in countries where routine circumcision is not common, such as Holland, may be left intact and yet remain Jews in good standing.
• In Sweden, 60% of Jewish boys are intact.
• Many Soviet Jews, left intact for fear of communist persecution, have chosen to remain so, even though communism no longer exists.
• Contrary to popular opinions, an intact boy may have a Bar Mitzvah. As one rabbi simply put it, “We don’t check.”
• Since many American Christians practice circumcision, it does not distinguish the Jewish boys from the non-Jewish.

Thus, the claim that circumcision is essential for the survival of the Jewish people is, therefore, invalid."

So, on pretexts the covenant does not remain intact.
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/brisshalom.htm
The Jews loose title of land, if any, they claim from Abraham from Bible.
Regards

#26 #35 #38

 

[metis]

The Jews broke the Covenants made with Abraham and Moses:

Circumcision/Identity
Circumcision was the sign of Covenants made with Abraham:
"Being circumcised is not a condition of being Jewish. Girls do not need to be circumcised to receive the gifts of covenant, i.e., being bat-mitzvahed. A boy is Jewish if his mother is Jewish from the moment he is born. In fact:

• A boy may be excused from circumcision permanently if his health would be endangered by it (for example, hemophilia).
• Jewish boys in countries where routine circumcision is not common, such as Holland, may be left intact and yet remain Jews in good standing.
• In Sweden, 60% of Jewish boys are intact.
• Many Soviet Jews, left intact for fear of communist persecution, have chosen to remain so, even though communism no longer exists.
• Contrary to popular opinions, an intact boy may have a Bar Mitzvah. As one rabbi simply put it, “We don’t check.”
• Since many American Christians practice circumcision, it does not distinguish the Jewish boys from the non-Jewish.

Thus, the claim that circumcision is essential for the survival of the Jewish people is, therefore, invalid."

So, on pretexts the covenant does not remain intact.
http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/brisshalom.htm
The Jews loose title of land they claim from Abraham from Bible.
Regards

#26 #35 #38

And of what difference is this to you? If I point out the significant number of Muslims that are terrorists, along with a significant number that don't hardly ever set foot into a mosque or have ever gone on the haj, how do you feel? What would I really accomplish by pointing out such atrocities and weaknesses of those in your own faith?

Would you please just leave us alone.

 

[ukok102nak]

this is getting interesting
for someone who could perceived
the weaknesses of one's arguments
in regards of the said debate

. ... just for thought
if we may say so ... .


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[Aamer]

Hello,
It's recently come to my attention, that the land of Israel is actually mentioned in the Qur'an in connection with the Jews. And that historically, there have been a number of important Mulsims, who have understood this to be true as well.



Since I am not at all familiar with the Qur'an nor with Arabic, I was wondering if there might be some Arabic readers out there who might be able to tell me if there are any other verses in Qur'an and Hadith associating the land of Israel with the people of Israel.

Secondly, I was wondering if there is any Qur'anic (or Hadith) justification for being anti-Zionist. Now, I'm not looking for ideological reasoning. I just want to know if Allah (swt) told Muhammad that He intended to permanently take away the land for the Jews at some point and that the umma should ensure that it never returns to them. Thanks for your help and your time.

Regards,

Tumah,
The problem with this discussion so far is that it seems all of you, from both sides have missed the most important detail. God never said the land belongs to JEWS. He said it belongs to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (Bani Israel in Arabic).

The Children of Israel are NOT a religion. They are a bloodline. They are the descendants of Israel (Jacob). So as far as I can see, the land does not belong to Jews or Muslims. It belongs to the descendants of Israel. Whenever God says in the Quran, "Children of ___", he is referring to descendants of a person... Not a religion that you can convert into.

The majority of Jews of today are Ashkenazi. They are not of Semitic descent and are definitely not the descendants of Israel (Jacob). So they have ZERO claim to the land.

When the real Bani Israel realize who they are and return, it'll be lights out for the imposters.

Peace,
Aamer.

 

[Tumah]

Tumah,
The problem with this discussion so far is that it seems all of you, from both sides have missed the most important detail. God never said the land belongs to JEWS. He said it belongs to the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL (Bani Israel in Arabic).

The Children of Israel are NOT a religion. They are a bloodline. They are the descendants of Israel (Jacob). So as far as I can see, the land does not belong to Jews or Muslims. It belongs to the descendants of Israel. Whenever God says in the Quran, "Children of ___", he is referring to descendants of a person... Not a religion that you can convert into.

The majority of Jews of today are Ashkenazi. They are not of Semitic descent and are definitely not the descendants of Israel (Jacob). So they have ZERO claim to the land.

When the real Bani Israel realize who they are and return, it'll be lights out for the imposters.

Peace,
Aamer.

I'm sure you are saying this knowing that genetics proves that European and Middle Eastern Jews are more closely related to each other than they are to their host countries. A bloodline as you call it, that even those of us with Ashkenazi heritage descend from the same Middle Eastern background as do Middle Eastern Jews (and some Middle Eastern non-Jews).

Genetic studies on Jews - Wikipedia

And repudiating the claims of a student who claimed a link to Khazars

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints

There have even been genetic links found between Palestinians and the larger Jewish population, such that some believe they were originally Jews who remained in Israel who eventually converted to Islam.

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

Spoiler

“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots,” as Ostrer and Skorecki wrote in a review of their findings that they co-authored in the journal Human Genetics in October 2012...

and interestingly

The lost Palestinian Jews

Spoiler

And the evidence for the Jewish ancestry of the Palestinians is persuasive - very persuasive, when all the information is taken into account. First, there are the names - not just place names, but family names. "Many villages here have names that are not Arabic, and very rarely appear in other Arab lands. Among such names are Kafr Yasif, Kafr Kana, Kafr Yatta, Kafr Manda, Kafr Samia, and many others," says Misinai. Indeed, Ben-Zvi in his 1932 book The Peoples of Our Land wrote that west of the Jordan River, 277 villages and sites - nearly two-thirds! - had names that were similar to or the same as the Jewish settlements on the same sites during Second Temple times. That in itself, said Ben-Zvi in his book, is proof that the inhabitants of those villages were Jews who had remained after the destruction. "If in fact the Jewish settlements became inhabited by entirely different people, they would not have preserved the Hebrew names (which in fact, did occur in most of those settlements where the population did change, such as in the eastern part of the Jordan). Such is not the case in western land of Israel where the old Hebrew names are preserved, which proves the continuity of settlement in this place," he wrote. It's not just place names; many Palestinians have Hebrew-derived family names as well, reflecting their origins, says Misinai. Already in the 1860s, "Colonel Condor of the Institute for Israel Research found biblical names among Palestinian fellahin [peasants]. Many of these names have no root in the Arabic lexicon. Large, distinguished families from various parts of the country carry Hebrew names or Jewish family names." Among the surnames of some of the larger clans are the Abu Khatsiras, who control much of the fishing in Gaza; Elbaz, a family of Jews who immigrated from Morocco; Abulafia, the family with the famous Jaffa bakery which is descended from the 13th-century Spanish kabbalist Rabbi Abraham Abulafia; the Almogs of Jenin; the Dawouda (Davids) of Hebron; and even, believe it or not, 4,000 forced converts to Islam named Cohen living in Jordan.

 

[FearGod]

I'm sure you are saying this knowing that genetics proves that European and Middle Eastern Jews are more closely related to each other than they are to their host countries. A bloodline as you call it, that even those of us with Ashkenazi heritage descend from the same Middle Eastern background as do Middle Eastern Jews (and some Middle Eastern non-Jews).

Genetic studies on Jews - Wikipedia

And repudiating the claims of a student who claimed a link to Khazars

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints

There have even been genetic links found between Palestinians and the larger Jewish population, such that some believe they were originally Jews who remained in Israel who eventually converted to Islam.

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

Spoiler

“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots,” as Ostrer and Skorecki wrote in a review of their findings that they co-authored in the journal Human Genetics in October 2012...

and interestingly

The lost Palestinian Jews

Spoiler

And the evidence for the Jewish ancestry of the Palestinians is persuasive - very persuasive, when all the information is taken into account. First, there are the names - not just place names, but family names. "Many villages here have names that are not Arabic, and very rarely appear in other Arab lands. Among such names are Kafr Yasif, Kafr Kana, Kafr Yatta, Kafr Manda, Kafr Samia, and many others," says Misinai. Indeed, Ben-Zvi in his 1932 book The Peoples of Our Land wrote that west of the Jordan River, 277 villages and sites - nearly two-thirds! - had names that were similar to or the same as the Jewish settlements on the same sites during Second Temple times. That in itself, said Ben-Zvi in his book, is proof that the inhabitants of those villages were Jews who had remained after the destruction. "If in fact the Jewish settlements became inhabited by entirely different people, they would not have preserved the Hebrew names (which in fact, did occur in most of those settlements where the population did change, such as in the eastern part of the Jordan). Such is not the case in western land of Israel where the old Hebrew names are preserved, which proves the continuity of settlement in this place," he wrote. It's not just place names; many Palestinians have Hebrew-derived family names as well, reflecting their origins, says Misinai. Already in the 1860s, "Colonel Condor of the Institute for Israel Research found biblical names among Palestinian fellahin [peasants]. Many of these names have no root in the Arabic lexicon. Large, distinguished families from various parts of the country carry Hebrew names or Jewish family names." Among the surnames of some of the larger clans are the Abu Khatsiras, who control much of the fishing in Gaza; Elbaz, a family of Jews who immigrated from Morocco; Abulafia, the family with the famous Jaffa bakery which is descended from the 13th-century Spanish kabbalist Rabbi Abraham Abulafia; the Almogs of Jenin; the Dawouda (Davids) of Hebron; and even, believe it or not, 4,000 forced converts to Islam named Cohen living in Jordan.

Not all Jews are the sons of Israel, so as Aamer said it's about the children of Israel and not the Jews.

 

[Tumah]

Not all Jews are the sons of Israel, so as Aamer said it's about the children of Israel and not the Jews.

And how do you distinguish between them?

 

[Aamer]

I'm sure you are saying this knowing that genetics proves that European and Middle Eastern Jews are more closely related to each other than they are to their host countries. A bloodline as you call it, that even those of us with Ashkenazi heritage descend from the same Middle Eastern background as do Middle Eastern Jews (and some Middle Eastern non-Jews).

Genetic studies on Jews - Wikipedia

And repudiating the claims of a student who claimed a link to Khazars

http://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1040&context=humbiol_preprints

There have even been genetic links found between Palestinians and the larger Jewish population, such that some believe they were originally Jews who remained in Israel who eventually converted to Islam.

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots

Spoiler

“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots,” as Ostrer and Skorecki wrote in a review of their findings that they co-authored in the journal Human Genetics in October 2012...

and interestingly

The lost Palestinian Jews

Spoiler

And the evidence for the Jewish ancestry of the Palestinians is persuasive - very persuasive, when all the information is taken into account. First, there are the names - not just place names, but family names. "Many villages here have names that are not Arabic, and very rarely appear in other Arab lands. Among such names are Kafr Yasif, Kafr Kana, Kafr Yatta, Kafr Manda, Kafr Samia, and many others," says Misinai. Indeed, Ben-Zvi in his 1932 book The Peoples of Our Land wrote that west of the Jordan River, 277 villages and sites - nearly two-thirds! - had names that were similar to or the same as the Jewish settlements on the same sites during Second Temple times. That in itself, said Ben-Zvi in his book, is proof that the inhabitants of those villages were Jews who had remained after the destruction. "If in fact the Jewish settlements became inhabited by entirely different people, they would not have preserved the Hebrew names (which in fact, did occur in most of those settlements where the population did change, such as in the eastern part of the Jordan). Such is not the case in western land of Israel where the old Hebrew names are preserved, which proves the continuity of settlement in this place," he wrote. It's not just place names; many Palestinians have Hebrew-derived family names as well, reflecting their origins, says Misinai. Already in the 1860s, "Colonel Condor of the Institute for Israel Research found biblical names among Palestinian fellahin [peasants]. Many of these names have no root in the Arabic lexicon. Large, distinguished families from various parts of the country carry Hebrew names or Jewish family names." Among the surnames of some of the larger clans are the Abu Khatsiras, who control much of the fishing in Gaza; Elbaz, a family of Jews who immigrated from Morocco; Abulafia, the family with the famous Jaffa bakery which is descended from the 13th-century Spanish kabbalist Rabbi Abraham Abulafia; the Almogs of Jenin; the Dawouda (Davids) of Hebron; and even, believe it or not, 4,000 forced converts to Islam named Cohen living in Jordan.

Dear Tumah,
Would you like me to use YOUR scripture to prove that you are NOT the Children of Israel? And when I do prove it... Will you be willing to pack your bags and go back to the European-Turkish land that you belong to? Go ahead! Make my day... Ashkenazi!

 

[Kirran]

Dear Tumah,
Would you like me to use YOUR scripture to prove that you are NOT the Children of Israel? And when I do prove it... Will you be willing to pack your bags and go back to the European-Turkish land that you belong to? Go ahead! Make my day... Ashkenazi!

Genetic evidence shows that the ancestry of Ashkenazi Jews is substantially Middle Eastern. There's no scientific support for the Khazar stuff.

 

[Flankerl]

Ah its Khazartime again.

Oh well.

 

[rosends]

Dear Tumah,
Would you like me to use YOUR scripture to prove that you are NOT the Children of Israel? And when I do prove it... Will you be willing to pack your bags and go back to the European-Turkish land that you belong to? Go ahead! Make my day... Ashkenazi!

The text speaks of the Children of Israel. That same text recounts the giving of Mosaic law to that group which detailed rules of determining who is of "the children" even including "strangers" who dwell within the community and become part of it. The text, thus, includes in the "children" the converts who abide by a set of laws making this not exclusively a matter of bloodline and familial connection, but of belief and adherence to a legal/ritual code. Until you decide to ignore the entirety of the text, or question its historical validity, you cannot get around that the descendants through the chronological end of the text belong to the group in question and have a system by which others are brought into that group. As we who are alive now can trace ourselves back to earlier groups either familially or by adoption of the code (as per the text!) you would be wrong to try and relabel us because of your agenda.

 

[Tumah]

Dear Tumah,
Would you like me to use YOUR scripture to prove that you are NOT the Children of Israel? And when I do prove it... Will you be willing to pack your bags and go back to the European-Turkish land that you belong to? Go ahead! Make my day... Ashkenazi!

Sure.

 

[Flankerl]

Someone is almost blowing up from excitement that he gets to show the world how fake the European Jews are.

 

[whirlingmerc]

Since the Koran acknowledges the Psalms of David, The books of Moses (the Torah) and the Gospels ( Matthew Mark Luke and John) seems it would acknowledge quite a bit about Israel to be consistent?

Am I wrong?

It also acknowledges Jesus as the Messiah (and by implication the Jewish Messiah)

Psalm 72
18 Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel,
who alone does wondrous things.
19 Blessed be his glorious name forever;
may the whole earth be filled with his glory!
Amen and Amen!

20 The prayers of David, the son of Jesse, are ended.