Isolation and determinism

[bobhikes]

How does determinism work with isolation. Causes are limited with isolation. Some examples a crew maintaining a submarine at depth, astronauts on the ISS the mars rover or the voyager.

Eventually we are going to loose communication with the voyager at that point how does anything done by a person on earth effect the voyager.

On earth I could build a box with a certain bacteria that could be self contained for years so that the bacteria will evolve many times. During the time in the box how is there causation with the outside world. If the box breaks open and the evolved bacteria causes new problems to the environment isn't this a new cause.

What are your thoughts.

 

[Nakosis]

How does determinism work with isolation. Causes are limited with isolation. Some examples a crew maintaining a submarine at depth, astronauts on the ISS the mars rover or the voyager.

Eventually we are going to loose communication with the voyager at that point how does anything done by a person on earth effect the voyager.

On earth I could build a box with a certain bacteria that could be self contained for years so that the bacteria will evolve many times. During the time in the box how is there causation with the outside world. If the box breaks open and the evolved bacteria causes new problems to the environment isn't this a new cause.

What are your thoughts.

Reminded me of the game of life. It was all determined by the rules but the starting conditions could create numerous results. Sometimes the "life" would die. Other times one part could become isolated from the rest both developing a fairly stable colony but interact at some future both causing both to die out.

 

[David T]

How does determinism work with isolation. Causes are limited with isolation. Some examples a crew maintaining a submarine at depth, astronauts on the ISS the mars rover or the voyager.

Eventually we are going to loose communication with the voyager at that point how does anything done by a person on earth effect the voyager.

On earth I could build a box with a certain bacteria that could be self contained for years so that the bacteria will evolve many times. During the time in the box how is there causation with the outside world. If the box breaks open and the evolved bacteria causes new problems to the environment isn't this a new cause.

What are your thoughts.

there is no such thing as void. So even in a box there are interactions with reality outside. The problem is multiple can the bacteria survive isolated? will it evolve? It's the chopping the tail off a million generations of rats idea. It actually won't cause the rat to not grow a tail.

 

[Quintessence]

How does determinism work with isolation. Causes are limited with isolation.

The thing about isolation is that it's relative, never absolute. Everything is connected on some level, even if that level is through something else.

Some examples a crew maintaining a submarine at depth, astronauts on the ISS the mars rover or the voyager.

Eventually we are going to loose communication with the voyager at that point how does anything done by a person on earth effect the voyager.

I'm not sure I understand the question. Why would impacts and affects be limited to human verbal communication? Isn't that a strange way of looking at it? I mean, it seems apparent to me that the humans involved in the building and financing the voyager have an obvious influence, as without them, the voyager wouldn't exist in the first place.

On earth I could build a box with a certain bacteria that could be self contained for years so that the bacteria will evolve many times. During the time in the box how is there causation with the outside world. If the box breaks open and the evolved bacteria causes new problems to the environment isn't this a new cause.

Well, you need to think about the box, and think outside of the box. Someone in the "outside world" built the box. The box itself was caused by the "outside world" and the impact of the box existing is certainly not trivial.

 

[bobhikes]

there is no such thing as void. So even in a box there are interactions with reality outside. The problem is multiple can the bacteria survive isolated? will it evolve? It's the chopping the tail off a million generations of rats idea. It actually won't cause the rat to not grow a tail.

I'm not saying a void exists, I can and scientists do isolate many things for testing purposes. They build a closed system that requires only specific interaction. A clean room or a biosphere would be an example. A biosphere for bacteria would easy to build for an extended period without any external interaction needed. Yes you need to set it up but once you closed the system you could make it so no outside interaction possible for a set time period.

 

[bobhikes]

The thing about isolation is that it's relative, never absolute. Everything is connected on some level, even if that level is through something else.



I'm not sure I understand the question. Why would impacts and affects be limited to human verbal communication? Isn't that a strange way of looking at it? I mean, it seems apparent to me that the humans involved in the building and financing the voyager have an obvious influence, as without them, the voyager wouldn't exist in the first place.



Well, you need to think about the box, and think outside of the box. Someone in the "outside world" built the box. The box itself was caused by the "outside world" and the impact of the box existing is certainly not trivial.

Another way of putting it is that cause chains are relative and you are able limit the causes around you.

 

[Quintessence]

Another way of putting it is that cause chains are relative and you are able limit the causes around you.

Not quite how a determinist would phrase things, because the phrasing here implies there's choice in the matter with "you are able to limit the causes."

It'd be more accurately framed as "causal variables are a matter of degree, so the impact any particular variable is limited and rarely (if ever) total" from the standpoint of determinism.

 

[bobhikes]

Not quite how a determinist would phrase things, because the phrasing here implies there's choice in the matter with "you are able to limit the causes."

It'd be more accurately framed as "causal variables are a matter of degree, so the impact any particular variable is limited and rarely (if ever) total" from the standpoint of determinism.

How do you explain scientists control experiments where they do limit interactions building closed biosphere's.

 

[Quintessence]

How do you explain scientists control experiments where they do limit interactions building closed biosphere's.

What's there to explain? From a deterministic perspective, causal variables and limitations apply to everything. In other words, the people building the box and the box itself are determined (aka, limited) as much as the contents. It sounds like this statement is still coming from a perspective that supposes that human agents are acausal (e.g., they can choose how an experimental design is constructed). For a determinist, they are not. The experiment is determined by other variables as much as anything.

Yes, it's weird - humans don't think like determinists (mostly) and behave as if they have free will (even if they don't).

 

[siti]

Causes are limited with isolation.

That's the problem with your...er...problem. In determinism there is no isolation just increasingly long and complex causal chains. In the voyager example, for example, say in a million years time a rivet holding one section of one side panel that was fitted slightly less firmly by a technician working late one Friday afternoon works lose as the remains of the craft swerve slightly around the gravitational pull of a distant star causing the entire structure to rip apart and scatter its remains through an alien solar system in a shower of unobserved sparks - does the fact that voyager is now isolated by thousands of light years and 40 thousand generations from its now extinct human creators alter the fact that it was that particular rivet on that particular panel fitted by that technician on that Friday afternoon that finally caused the spacecraft to disintegrate?

 

[Orbit]

How does determinism work with isolation. Causes are limited with isolation. Some examples a crew maintaining a submarine at depth, astronauts on the ISS the mars rover or the voyager.

Eventually we are going to loose communication with the voyager at that point how does anything done by a person on earth effect the voyager.

On earth I could build a box with a certain bacteria that could be self contained for years so that the bacteria will evolve many times. During the time in the box how is there causation with the outside world. If the box breaks open and the evolved bacteria causes new problems to the environment isn't this a new cause.

What are your thoughts.

What do you mean by "determinism"? What is doing the determining?

 

[Skwim]

How does determinism work with isolation. Causes are limited with isolation.

Keep in mind that something is not a cause unless it causes something. So if a hypothetical event never occurs it's because there was nothing to cause it. So, causes in themselves aren't really limited; however, if a potential casual event must work with other causal events to effect an outcome event and those other causal events don't materialize, then one could say the potential cause was limited.

On earth I could build a box with a certain bacteria that could be self contained for years so that the bacteria will evolve many times. During the time in the box how is there causation with the outside world. If the box breaks open and the evolved bacteria causes new problems to the environment isn't this a new cause.

If I understand you correctly, during the years in the box the bacteria only has effects within its sphere of influence; the confines of the box; perhaps causing the death of fellow bacteriums, or increasing the bacteria population. They have no effect on the room they're in, the building they're in, or the country they're in. However, once outside the box they can cause reactions in other organisms, and reactions even in other organisms they don't even come in direct contact with.

My question is, So what? Where events occur determinism is always at work. Where events don't occur determinism is not at work. It doesn't make any difference the size of its sphere of operation.


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[RedDragon94]

How does determinism work with isolation. Causes are limited with isolation. Some examples a crew maintaining a submarine at depth, astronauts on the ISS the mars rover or the voyager.

Eventually we are going to loose communication with the voyager at that point how does anything done by a person on earth effect the voyager.

On earth I could build a box with a certain bacteria that could be self contained for years so that the bacteria will evolve many times. During the time in the box how is there causation with the outside world. If the box breaks open and the evolved bacteria causes new problems to the environment isn't this a new cause.

What are your thoughts.

The universe began in isolation. So there's hope.

 

[bobhikes]

That's the problem with your...er...problem. In determinism there is no isolation just increasingly long and complex causal chains. In the voyager example, for example, say in a million years time a rivet holding one section of one side panel that was fitted slightly less firmly by a technician working late one Friday afternoon works lose as the remains of the craft swerve slightly around the gravitational pull of a distant star causing the entire structure to rip apart and scatter its remains through an alien solar system in a shower of unobserved sparks - does the fact that voyager is now isolated by thousands of light years and 40 thousand generations from its now extinct human creators alter the fact that it was that particular rivet on that particular panel fitted by that technician on that Friday afternoon that finally caused the spacecraft to disintegrate?

A question then If Isolation could be proven does it effect determinism.

 

[bobhikes]

Keep in mind that something is not a cause unless it causes something. So if a hypothetical event never occurs it's because there was nothing to cause it. So, causes in themselves aren't really limited; however, if a potential casual event must work with other causal events to effect an outcome event and those other causal events don't materialize, then one could say the potential cause was limited.

If I understand you correctly, during the years in the box the bacteria only has effects within its sphere of influence; the confines of the box; perhaps causing the death of fellow bacteriums, or increasing the bacteria population. They have no effect on the room they're in, the building they're in, or the country they're in. However, once outside the box they can cause reactions in other organisms, and reactions even in other organisms they don't even come in direct contact with.

My question is, So what? Where events occur determinism is always at work. Where events don't occur determinism is not at work. It doesn't make any difference the size of its sphere of operation.


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If the box is isolated and a random event causes it to no longer be isolated. I no longer need everything to be random but just occasional events. So in my reality causality is the normal path but it is interrupted periodically by random events. Now If I could prove that a section of the mind was isolated and at random times interjected idea's I could prove will.

 

[siti]

A question then If Isolation could be proven does it effect determinism.

I don't know how that could possibly be achieved. I can imagine an isolated object - lets make it simple and make the object an infinitesimally small sphere. If it were completely isolated from any other existing objects what could we say about it? Would there be any 'up' or 'down' for it? Could we possibly know whether it were spinning or stationary? Would it make any difference at all if the sphere were to suddenly zap itself (somehow) from one side of its cosmos to the other? How could it (or we) tell whether it were motionless or accelerating? None of these possibilities - motion, rest, spin, orientation...etc. could possibly have any effect on anything else at all. In that scenario, determinism would be irrelevant because there would be nothing to determine or to be determined. But that is not the universe we live in.

 

[Skwim]

If the box is isolated and a random event causes it to no longer be isolated. I no longer need everything to be random but just occasional events. So in my reality causality is the normal path but it is interrupted periodically by random events.

Thing is, so-called "random" events have causes. Nothing, N O T H I N G, happens that isn't caused.

Now If I could prove that a section of the mind was isolated and at random times interjected idea's I could prove will.

And even if the mind was controlled by random events, the working of the mind would be random, and hardly under any control by a free will. The will would be at the mercy of both deterministic causes and random causes. It would not be free.

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[bobhikes]

Thing is, so-called "random" events have causes. Nothing, N O T H I N G, happens that isn't caused.


And even if the mind was controlled by random events, the working of the mind would be random, and hardly under any control by a free will. The will would be at the mercy of both deterministic causes and random causes. It would not be free.

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You can't prove everything is caused or that nothing is truly random it is a belief, which is fine. I am saying that a part of the mind is Isolated (from causes) a belief as well. Isolation mixed with a truly random event is what I am going for. I'm poking for ideas.

 

[bobhikes]

I don't know how that could possibly be achieved. I can imagine an isolated object - lets make it simple and make the object an infinitesimally small sphere. If it were completely isolated from any other existing objects what could we say about it? Would there be any 'up' or 'down' for it? Could we possibly know whether it were spinning or stationary? Would it make any difference at all if the sphere were to suddenly zap itself (somehow) from one side of its cosmos to the other? How could it (or we) tell whether it were motionless or accelerating? None of these possibilities - motion, rest, spin, orientation...etc. could possibly have any effect on anything else at all. In that scenario, determinism would be irrelevant because there would be nothing to determine or to be determined. But that is not the universe we live in.

Can you imagine a separate dimension or traveling into the past? If it was completely isolated you couldn't know anything about it but if it was isolated like the past we could know about it but not interact with it. If a separate dimension existed you could only know it if you traveled to the dimension but to travel there it must be random. Now what I am isolating is a section of the mind.

 

[Skwim]

You can't prove everything is caused or that nothing is truly random it is a belief, which is fine.

Your smugness is amusing.

I am saying that a part of the mind is Isolated (from causes) a belief as well. Isolation mixed with a truly random event is what I am going for. I'm poking for ideas.

Nah, you're just looking for confirmation for your goofy assertion. Reminds me of the creationist method.

And this isn't a compliment.

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