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Featured Island of Neanderthals (Thought Exercise)

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Samantha Rinne, Aug 23, 2019.

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  1. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Uh what? Your OP stated...


    Who did they learn the art of refining steel from? Who did they learn how to create and control electricity from? Who showed them how to build skyscrapers?

    If you are going to post a "thought experiment" you need to take the time, in advance, to make it plausible.
     
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  2. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Most important, you have to explain why you felt it necessary to proselytize to these people instead of leaving them alone. Maybe you should have taken the time to learn from them about how they became so great without the need for your silly religious views.

    Does your superior attitude exist in real life as it does in the OPs you create?
     
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  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
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    We all see the world around us through a lense that is engineered to have tunnel vision. It is very clear to me that there is a Creator. Abraham, before him Ahura Mazda, and who knows before that were likely part of those who served that Creator. It is disappointing to find that most of us, including myself, miss the mark a lot. It seems impossible to know if our failures are a result of evil influence, or simply due to the not so perfect functionings of a biological "computer" that we call a Brain? We have an inappropriately inflated view of our own competence.

    Sometimes Jewish ideas make sense, and others, Christian, or Muslim Ideas do. There are Hindu ideas and Buddhist thoughts that appeal to me.

    It is disappointing to not be able to talk to adherents of all the other faiths, but it is your sandbox. If I have to adhere to a list of faiths then I'll just choose Agnostic perhaps?
     
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  4. Bob the Unbeliever

    Bob the Unbeliever Well-Known Member

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    Although Star Trek all too often ignored the Prime Directive? I think it was a very good idea.

    That is to say-- I would not try to force-fit a Cro-magnon religion onto these people.

    Instead, I'd do my best to try to communicate with them, perhaps they (in contrast to all human theists) have in fact, found proof of a god.

    I would be very interested, either way what their ideas with respect to theism, turned out to be.

    This would be the first "non-human" species we know of, and could possibly communicate with, and I'd be interested in their concepts of the Ultimate Questions about Life, The Universe And Everything.

    Will they, too, discover the Ultimate Answer is 42? Or will they have a different reply?

    Maybe they will have the Ultimate Question! That would be nice.

    But the last thing I'd try to do? Would be to introduce religion-- look how much religion in human space, has entirely messed up the world...
     
  5. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

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    They don't need a those religions that time
    Because they understand the true faith and know who created them and where they came from

    Religion is a message to inform people about their reality and what they have to do
    Correct their course
    Every time people get lost and every time a new message is sent
    All messages have the same content and are not different

    Islam, Judaism, Christianity and others but the difference in the ability of generations to retain this message after long time

    Islam as a Muslim is the last corrective message to introduce people to the truth

    Thanks
     
  6. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Okay, so when the West visited China and Japan, exactly this happened. They showed them how to do stuff they had known, either by defeating them in war, or by actually teaching them. One way or another, they learned how to do this. And the reverse happened, at the time of Marco Polo.

    I'm implying by my original post is that some foreigners came and built vacation houses, and the islanders saw them smelting stuff and basically the entire process, and these guys pieced this together. They realize these guys are brilliant and a valuable trade partner, so they teach them more stuff. But culturally, their religion gives them different values. Think about the pagan cultures in early Africa, some of these had no objections to nudity. Then Christian missionaries were all like "modesty and stuff" and suddenly they're wearing these shiny dresses. So yeah, there is some background for all of this. Except, well the whole deal where they can't speak at all.

    How they became great is because these people are genius copymasters. They can see stuff once and analyze it. They didn't build skyscrapers on their own. But they learned to do it just by watching once (which is amazing in and of itself). They're also skilled artists and inventors, once they see and internalize a theory.

    I'm alot like the exact people I described, I'm so painfully shy that I say nothing to for days at a time offline. I do alot of art, and I learn mainly by watching and doing, since I find most instructions boring (and I'm Attention Deficit). So basically, I'm not arrogantly doing anything, I'm doing nothing more than converting a small portion of people to be exactly like me. Because they basically are.

    Bob, the explicitly have no concept or interest in gods or God. In other words, the challenge is to figure out how to teach not belief in gods (impossible, because they care even less about this than an atheist), but the secondary religion (festivals, rituals, beliefs, traditions). They don't want or need to believe in the proof of deities (they believe in nature), rather you're teaching them your religious culture. Because, common religious culture means they get why for instance, this night is different from all other nights. Or why prepare meat in a certain way. It all changes how you do things.

    None of you guys seem to get what missionaries are for. They come with other explorers, with all the architects and farmers and doctors, and bring that culture there. Sometimes it's just to bring temples there for the settlers, but often it's necessary to convert because those residing there might otherwise be hostile. When you don't have a similar language, culture/religion, and racial makeup, you are an outsider and can get attacked. For example, people get offended about the implication that some people are cannibals. They're offended by this because they're ignorant of the fact that some of them were. Their native religion was about stuff like this. The Sawi people from New Guinea, for instance, until about 1950. Or maybe they burn their wives (as in India). You could go with the assumption that "all cultures are equally good" or "they don't really need to change anything" but this isn't helpful if trade or living with these people involves radically different cultural norms, like getting hunted for food or their women are dragged off for unwilling sex. So missionaries try to bridge the gap by getting others to at least understand their religion, if not convert them.
     
    #26 Samantha Rinne, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  7. Goodman John

    Goodman John Active Member

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    Personally, I'm all for the 'do not interfere' approach. However, once you make contact you ARE the 'interference' regardless of your intentions.

    For practical purposes, though, if these people have managed to tame electricity and build and all that, doesn't it stand to reason that at some point they'd have discovered at the very least a rudimentary form of radio and learned of the outside world- maybe to the point of being able to recognize languages and develop their own?

    But more to the point, why impose on them ANY religion? They already have a basic understanding of Taoist philosophy and Shinto ancestor worship (even if they don't know our names for them)- why mess with that?

    ~~~

    As for the previous post, which noted that missionaries are necessary because the locals might be hostile, I have to wonder why- if the locals are hostile in the first place- you'd want to go there? Is there a pressing need for you to invade their land? Do they have resources you want? Or do you think that you have a right to just come and go as you please without regard for anyone else's notions of property? Or do they just 'need religion'?

    If you think you have an absolute need to 'convert the savage' there's always North Sentinel Island. Go put your theory into practice and see how that works out for you.
     
    #27 Goodman John, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
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  8. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Read my earlier posts. They are genetically incapable as in, they don't have the same parts of the brain developed the same way. They have a huge brain, but it's configured to understand drama, art, math, memorization and recopying (they can repaint the Cistine Chapel by watching it done), with the parts concerning language cobbled together in such a strange way that our communication is impossible. They can understand instrumental music, but radio would be so meaningless as to be boring. For this reason, they are far more likely to find television a preferred medium to radio. But watching television would to them be like being deaf or watching a Chinese program, either with no subtitles.

    I personally like Taoism and Shintoism, which is why I picked it for them. But you said it yourself, once you're there, you are the interference. You (not me) are the missionary. So all of these questions are for you, not me.

    I don't hear anyone complaining about Hindus or Muslims or whatever building temples or mosques in US, but somehow it's not normal to want to be able to relate to people in an island in the North Pacific?

    Since everyone here has a need for motivation, however, I'll give it to you. I am not a missionary. I'm a farmer who was looking for a quiet (and property tax-free) life on an island. I converted to Taoism, and showed them farming techniques. Some of the people who showed them how to build skyscrapers also took this route, or simply moved away when their job was done. But as a missionary, it's not as simple.
    You have been assigned by the leader, the "Pope" of your worldview (in atheism, Dawkins sent you :D ) to build a temple, church, mosque, synogogue, or meeting place. And you have three basic options. You can succeed in converting them, in which case the leader will let you go someplace you actually like. You can refuse to do so, in which case, he basically takes away your parish (if you're Christian you know what that is, it's the house you get along with the job) and you're stuck homeless on an island with people who are still unfriendly to you along with constant wind and rain from the stormy seas. Or you can convert to their religion, and have a place to stay with them provided you respect all their customs. If you are successful and want to stay, you also can do that, and they'll let you have a +1 on the island. So it's basically 3.5 choices.
     
    #28 Samantha Rinne, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  9. Goodman John

    Goodman John Active Member

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    If those are the choices, I'll take Door Number Two. Even though the natives may be unfriendly I can likely still find shelter and food somewhere, and if I'm shunned from their society I'll just go do my thing in a remote part of the island. Or they may kill me. As for converting to their religion, they are in as much a pickle as the outside missionaries are in working with them, not being able to communicate in a way we're accustomed to.

    But, overall, what I see you doing is framing the questions and conditions to fit your preconceived conclusion that Christianity is the answer for these folks, when in reality when you have a blank slate to work with any religion is just as good as any other.

    Better yet, prove your case and post a series of drawn pictures and photos of hand signs that you would use to illustrate your tale. Pretend that all of us are those Neanderthals and teach us Christianity using those tools only. I'm not arguing the validity of Christianity, only that it's far more complicated than you imagine it to be. (If the finest minds in Christendom haven't agreed on their own religion in over 2000 years, what's a poor Neanderthal to do with a PowerPoint slide show?)
     
  10. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Messages written by men to instill control over other men.
     
  11. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure that Christians would disagree with you.
    I'm sure that Bahais would disagree with you.
     
  12. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Don't you even remember what you wrote. Can't you refresh your memory by reading when I quote your comments?

    Your island was "gone for centuries and centuries".

    When it re-appeared the inhabitants knew how to create and use electricity and build skyscrapers. No one could have taught them that "centuries and centuries" ago.

    Again...If you are going to post a "thought experiment" you need to take the time, in advance, to make it plausible.
     
  13. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    I never said this at all. Christianity is AN answer for these guys. So is some other religion, or joining theirs, or whatever. You're bringing along preconceived notions of what you think I expect out of this, when actually I want ppl to do is something rather than nothing. You're all saying no to any kind of action, so time for punishment.

    Middle option is bad. Failing to interact other to convert or be converted means you are a homeless outsider stuck alone on an island. The island in question is big, and the temperature widely shifts because it's roughly as tall as China varies from alpine to temperate to tropical, with strong storms. I'm not sure how wide it is, so while it may be possible to go inland, but you didn't carry around water bottles with you and one thing they don't have is supermarkets. So in the center of the island you may die of thirst, and the outside you're dying of moisture from storms of from freezing wimds up north. The natives know where old caves are but you're staying away from them because you're leaving them alone. To say nothing of getting sick. These missionaries typically did have a +1 because life was harsh alone on an island.

    Why am I making this option so bad? Because in life too, if you don't participate, you get stuck alone. You can by all means do so but... well to quote San and that ski slope guy, "You're gonna have a bad time." Think of it like a bar or something. You can sit at the bar and let ppl come to you, or go to meet ppl. Or you can hide under the table until it closes, and pretty guaranteed not to have a date.
     
  14. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    That is exactly to holier-than-thou mindset that:
    • Caused the death of millions of North and South American natives when your missionaries introduced diseases to them.
    • Advanced the concept that slavery is acceptable (because they aren't like us).
    • That forced North American native children into Christian orphanages and their parents into smaller and smaller "reservations".

    You must be very proud of yourself.
     
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  15. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    Argh, you ppl! They learned how by watching us modern ppl. In fact, other than language, I've made them super-geniuses. They learned to build skyscrapers after watching this once. I thought this was clear the first post, then I outright said it, on like the fifth post. They're like Sharingan copy masters. They pick up techniques that visitors showed them the first time they do so.

    China and Japan had developed gunpowder, but by about the 17th or 18th centuries they had become hopelessly backward due to isolation. Then China lost a war because they were arrogant and refused to adapt to new tech. Japan on the other hand, was pretty okay at adapting. Today, China, Japan, and South Korea are all skyscraper-filled modern countries which in some ways are better at tech than the US. If anyone thought they appeared with skyscrapers and electricity already, that's not what I meant to say.

    They appeared as an old island about the level of ancient Japan, and within a single generation became modern. But the people into developing the island want it "civilized", and personally your religious leader has suggested you go missionary there.
    And you have the three options, but the middle one requires that you understand how to do survival on an island. Since you're basically not doing the job they hired you for.

    Actually, ecco, developers have to blame introducing sicknesses to Native Americans. They deliberately shared blankets with the Natives, because they wanted their land. Missionaries were not involved in this. In fact, mamy missionaries were allied with doctors and nurses. Which is why, I have in my room a Native American Trinity picture (Son as a Native youth, Father as an old gnarled Native, and Spirit as some kinda black and white bird). While the developers were unethical, the priests tended to be involved in humane efforts. As much as ppl like you want to go back to Europe... fine, do it already, and watch the EU-run movement to convert the West to Islam, which btw was involved in the slave trade. And is still involved in slave trade. Arabs Have Black Slaves - Today
    Meanwhile Europe and US abolished the slavery in their countries. So yes, it is convert, or be converted, or sit there alone and die IRL. Have fun with white guilt btw. The last one, we will accept responsibility for, but this has more to do with the way land is shared with the Natives than it does religious conversion. My dad is a regular giver (and I donated once) to a Native American fund helping them have more resources on the reservations. What have you done for them? What's that? Nothing? You just want to do a guilt trip? Well, I won't apologize for being here, any more than new immigrants also don't apologize for coming every year. I can certainly forgive new immigrants that come and actually work hard, but I won't as long as I get guilt tripped over my own immigrant ancestors, who came after slavery, after these reservations were set up, and came because Nazis were forcing them to otherwise serve in the army.
     
    #35 Samantha Rinne, Aug 26, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  16. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Active Member

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    So, since this thread has basically zero participation, and ppl are now equating what I'm suggesting with owning black slaves, and making Native Americans sick, I'm gonna ask that it be closed.
     
  17. j1i

    j1i Smiling is charity without giving money

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    thanks dude for replay
    can with you please have friendly sharing with you
    lest start

    When human began to think to lay the foundation stone
    No one ever thought of the fact that there is God unless there is a truth that there is God

    Since the personalities of Jesus, Buddha, Krishna and other human gods existed only thousands of years ago
    This is proof that the GOD is much older than the origins of the earth and they refer fully to the God of heaven

    The difference is that some perverts need to enjoy worship materially pushing them to worship idols and others

    Islam is no different with Christianity
    Only Christians did not properly understand Jesus' message

    Like the student who read the book and when he did start the exam got fail

    What my fault if as a Muslim like successful student that scored the highest score in the test

    Christian precipitate deposition and ended

    It was therefore God's mercy to mankind to send Muhammad as a faithful prophet for deviant ideological ignorance
    We were able to live away from slavery to humans and beings
    By the grace of God, Muhammad saved us from the slavery of creatures such as Jesus, the cow and others which are sanctified for worship on earth

    We are real free, we worship only the worthy of worship and not any creature that can deceive us to exploit slavery

    with respect
    GOD bless you :)
     
  18. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    I checked Judaism, but I don't actually think the Neanderthals need to become Jews. I would say Ethical Monotheists.

    I actually have no problems with their Taoism. I think it is a primitive form of ethical monotheism, and that given time, it would naturally develop into ethical monotheism. I'm simply there to perhaps see if I can artificially speed up the process.

    IOW, I don't really feel that they are ignorant heathens. I think they are coming along quite nicely. They have an idea of a source underlying the universe that defies description. "Perhaps it is the mother of 10 thousand things." I would simply tell them that I believe this source to have an intelligence, and that it cares about how we act. I would say that for lack of a better word, I call this source, this intelligence, "God." I would stress the TE of the Tao Te Ching.
     
    #38 IndigoChild5559, Aug 27, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
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  19. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    I would not try to teach them but I would try to understand them and see them for who they are. If I could learn from them that would be good too. They are free to believe what they already do. So no need to "push my own belief onto them"
     
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  20. Goodman John

    Goodman John Active Member

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    If you want to make contact with the skyscraper-building Neanderthals (who curiously don't have supermarkets) then go ahead and make contact. Try to work out a mutually intelligible language with them. Learn from them how they learned their skills essentially in a vacuum, and show them better techniques and technology if we have them. I'm not opposed to that at all.

    What I AM opposed to, though, is framing that contact in the context of a religious mission. You don't go tromping into a new land and immediately start handing out tracts and holding Sunday School classes- build trust and communication and offer assistance if you see they need it. Tracts and Sunday School comes way down on the list of priorities.

    (Of course none of this is taking into account the possibility that mere outside contact- and the introduction of new diseases and germs- might devastate the native population, and as we have no idea what's on their end, their own diseases and germs might be fatal to outsiders as well.)
     
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