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Islamic view of Homosexuality and the different types of sexual attraction spectrum & intercourses

Discussion in 'Islam DIR' started by mahmoud mrt, Jun 19, 2020.

  1. mahmoud mrt

    mahmoud mrt Member

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    Hi All,

    I would like to make this thread about this very controversial topic

    I post it in DIR as an informative essay for anyone who needs to know the Islamic perspective in this topic, So I don’t want to start a debate, just to inform who may be interested in knowing how the holy Qur’an & Islam as a whole views and analyzes this topic.

    First we need to differentiate between 2 things:

    1- Homosexual attraction (The Man is sexually attracted to Men, and the Woman is sexually attracted to Women) & other types of sexual attraction including pedophilic attraction which is the man or woman sexual attraction towards children boys or girls, etc.


    Some may be surprised that I put homosexual attraction and pedophilic Attraction in one category, but I only mean to illustrate the nowadays known fact that sexual attraction is a spectrum that includes all those kinds.


    All these attractions are by themselves Not Sins or Crimes; it’s Not a sin to be sexually attracted to your same sex or to children.

    Except if they were joined with the actual physical practices and actual sexual intercourse, then those practices are major sins and crimes, and deserves punishment in the Islamic law in the Islamic country, which is point 2.


    Exactly like Sexual attraction between men and women, it’s not a Sin to be attracted to a woman who is Not your wife, but it’s a Sin to have physical practices and sexual intercourse with her, and vice versa.


    Well, Islam has a different unique perspective for this life. While the Western liberal perspective values the personal human rights above all ethics. Islam views This life as a Test from God to grade all humans to deserve their degrees in the hereafter.



    Thus Any attraction or desire in the Muslim person is a Test to see if he will put God’s orders “Which prevent any ethical harm to the society” above his personal desires, and thus if the person elevates himself above his desires and grows spiritually with love for God that increases and summons him to do good deeds and stay away from bad deeds, thus he will earn God’s mercy and a very high grade in heaven in the hereafter.



    2- The Actual deed of homosexual intercourse and its related physical practices like kissing, touching thighs, etc. Also the Actual Deed of pedophilic sexual intercourse.


    Those are major sines and Crimes in the Islamic view, and if the person does not repent he/she will probably go to hell in the hereafter and stay punished in it for a duration that God decides.


    Also if the person goes public with these practices in an Islamic society then there is a law that decides his/her punishment accordingly. The punishments varies from prison-time if there was No full intercourse done, to 100 lashes if the full intercourse is public seen by at least 4 just witnesses. Some extreme Islamic opinion states the punishment of death but I do Not agree with this extreme opinion because it’s not mentioned at all in the holy Qur’an.


    The holy Qur’an states the punishment of homosexual intercourse in these two verses of Chapter “Surah” 4 ”Al Anissa”:


    “15- Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women - -bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way.


    16- And the two who commit it among your men, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.”


    Verse 15 Talks about women to women homosexual intercourse, and Verse 16 talks about men to men homosexual intercourse, and since the holy Qur’an usually has a gradual step by step approach in punishments in the early days of Islam. So it’s agreed among some known respected Islamic Law opinion that the punishment was elevated to 100 lashes similar to the punishment of adultery “Public Man to woman Sexual intercourse outside marriage seen by at least 4 just witnesses”


    Holy Qur’an, Chapter “Surah” 24 “Alnoor”:

    “2- The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.”



    This does not include Rape of course, Which has the death punishment either it’s homosexual, or normal rape, or pedophilic rape. Rape is a much more horrible crime thus deserving the ultimate punishment.



    I hope this thread is informative and beneficial to any Muslim or non-Muslim here.
     
    #1 mahmoud mrt, Jun 19, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
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  2. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I have a question:
    You talk about 4 witnesses. I do not understand this, in my house the door is closed, so there can never be witnesses, could you please explain this?
     
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  3. mahmoud mrt

    mahmoud mrt Member

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    Sure,
    The point is to punish on public and explicit wrong deeds, since the goal is to protect the society, Not to lash and imprison many individuals.

    The other way the punishment is done is by confession, but Islam urges and summons the Muslim to keep his sins secret and to do not confess, and of course repent as soon as possible, the holy Quran also warns of delayed repentance since No one can know when normal death comes to him.
     
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  4. mahmoud mrt

    mahmoud mrt Member

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    I want to add 2 important items:

    1- As obvious same sex marriages are forbidden in any Muslims country, because it’s agreed in all Islamic law opinions in all Islamic nations that it’s forbidden. And the holy Quran is clear about this topic.



    2- The other point is pedophilic marriage, that is a grown man marries a child girl who even did not reach puberty.

    Well,

    Unfortunately many Islamic scholars’ opinions allow this abnormal marriage if the girl and her father agree and if she can bear the sexual intercourse without any harm on her.

    Well, With All Respect to All Muslim Scholars, I respectfully Disagree with this abnormal marriage, and many Muslim Scholars and persons disagree with this abnormal marriage.

    Simply because the holy Quran clearly states that the girl must reach the proper age for marriage, which is of course puberty, and physical and mental maturity.

    Holy Quran, Chapter “Surah” 4 “Alnisaa”

    “6- And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant.”


    This Opinion allowing a child girl to be married has No proof at all from the holy Quran.

    Its only proof is a known tradition “Hadith” in the respected book “Bukhari”, stating that The Wife of the Prophet “Peace be upon him” “Aisha”: Says that the prophet married her when she was a child about 8 years and 9 months old, the tradition clearly states that she was a child who plays with dolls and other children playing.

    Lets Analyze this Calmly with all respect:

    First: The prophet had No pedophilic attraction at all, and this is proven by his whole life,

    Pedophilic attraction in men appears in a very young age at teenage, But The prophet was known to be the most virtuous man, he did Not have any sexual intercourse until the age of 25 when he married his first wife “Khadija” who was older than him by 15 years, she was 40 years old, she was also not a virgin meaning she had been married before 2 times and her husbands died normally. The prophet lived with her for 25 years in love and care; he did Not marry any other woman in addition to her while she was alive. Then After she died he mourned her for 2 years Not marrying again for this duration.


    Second, So to know the approximate age of Lady “Aisha” the third wife of the prophet, we do this By analyzing and comparing different respected history books, if we compare their combined information like the difference between Lady “Aisha” Age and her sister Lady “Asmaa” Age, and other information even from the same book “Bukhari”, we reach the conclusion that Aisha was mature and at least 15 to 16 years old when she married the prophet Peace be upon him.


    Third, Aisha Loved the prophet Very dearly, he died in her arms, all the prophet’s companions knew that both the prophet and Aisha were in the most romantic and honored love, they even chose to bring gifts to the prophet at lady “Aisha’ home specifically because they knew how the prophet loves her, if any companion asks the prophet: who is the most beloved person to him, he immediately replies “Aisha”.

    Forth, Aisha lived after the prophet died for decades, she never Sayed anything bad about the prophet, for decades she honored him and conveyed his message stating how both of them were in the most honored love that can be between a man and his wife.


    All those combined facts clearly illustrate this topic and set light on the historical facts.


    May God Bless Lady “Aisha”, And God’s Blesses on prophet “Muhammad” Peace be upon him.
     
    #4 mahmoud mrt, Jun 20, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2020
  5. mojtaba

    mojtaba Active Member

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    I believe that death penalty does not have an Islamic basis, too.
    I even believe that the punishment of 100 lashes for gays is not correct. Indeed, the punishment of being gay (physical practice) is Ta'zir, and not Had. Ta'zir is always less than Had. The punishment of adultary is Had.
     
    #5 mojtaba, Jun 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
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  6. mahmoud mrt

    mahmoud mrt Member

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    I want to add an important point,

    Which is the Islamic view I believe of Trans persons.


    Which is a man who is his brain is female while his body is male, and the opposite which is the woman who is her brain is male while her body is female, And he or she decides to be identified as the other sex including clothing and community treatment, whether they perform surgery or not.

    I believe as a Muslim that he or she has the right to be identified as women or man Provided that the person is Not lying and his brain is really sexually different from his body, and I believe that the known tradition “hadith”, which is cursing the man or woman imitating the other sex, is Not talking about this specific case, it's talking about a normal man or woman who likes to imitate the other sex as a fun change not as an actual brain need.

    But I also believe that this Trans person Has No right to have sexual intercourse or marriage in an Islamic country, because due to his specific case any sexual intercourse would be a homosexual intercourse which is as mentioned is forbidden in the Islamic law.

    Exactly like Gays and Lesbians & Pedophilic persons have No right of sexual intercourse or marriage in an Islamic society.

    They should be respected and treated well by the Islamic society “And I really hope that the Islamic Societies grow to treat them with respect and kindness”.

    But as long as they choose to live in an Islamic country they should Be patient and respect the cultural and legal laws of Islam.

    Exactly like the Muslims living in Non-Muslims country should respect the cultural and legal laws of the country they live in. And they should Not perform any act against the laws of this country. “Example, the Muslim man cannot have more than one wife, he cannot curse or insult any person drinking alcohol or kissing another person in the street”, See how these situations are very hard on the Muslim person Culturally and psychologically, but The Muslim As long as he accepted to live in this country he has to respect the country's culture and laws.


    See the Equation, I really hope that both Muslim and Non-Muslim societies reach this equation and respect each other.


    And I Hope this essay gives clearance on this issue for Muslims and Non-Muslims here.


    Blessed Ramadan for you all
     
    #6 mahmoud mrt, Apr 20, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2021
  7. mahmoud mrt

    mahmoud mrt Member

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    Since it was mentioned, I would like to add this post about the Muslim man having more than 1 wife issue, since it’s also related to sexual attraction in a way:

    As mentioned sexual attraction is a spectrum, and a percentage of men from all cultures it’s from their nature to have sexual attraction towards more than one woman.

    While The Islamic Law Allows the Muslim man to have up to 4 wives, it clearly states that this is conditioned by 2 Conditions:

    1- The psychological, emotional, physical, and financial ability to be just and fair to all of them.

    2- The acceptance of the first wife, meaning that she has the right to get a divorce if she does not agree to share her husband with another woman.

    Now we get to the main concept, since this situation is a percentage in the Muslim communities, Not the majority, but a percentage that varies from one Muslim country to another.

    The concept is that this life is a test, and any desire in the Muslim person does Not mean that he should go with it and fulfill it.

    As for myself, I vowed to God that I reserve myself to only one woman when I meet her in the future by God’s willing, because:

    1- I really love to be one with my wife and give her all my heart.

    2- I cannot afford to be just and fair to more than one woman by any aspect “psychological, emotional, physical, and financial ability”, and by this I’m ordered clearly by the Holy Quran & Islamic law to have Only one wife.



    I hope this post clears this issue up for Muslims and non-Muslims here.

    Happy Eid for you all
     
    #7 mahmoud mrt, May 13, 2021
    Last edited: May 13, 2021
  8. mahmoud mrt

    mahmoud mrt Member

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    I would like to talk about the topic of the punishment of Stoning till death of the Already Married man or woman who commits Adultery with another person. Since it’s also related to sexual attraction towards a person other than your legal spouse.


    But First I have to convey a very important Background, while clearly stating that this is my humble point of view and clear understanding:

    First I clearly state that I Fully respect all traditions “Hadiths” books, But I only Affirm the Fact that they are Not Holy, and that the Only Islamic holy book is Solely the holy Qur’an.

    Keep in mind that the holy Quran is the Only Islamic book that is fully preserved by thousands to thousands persons in every degree in history, it was fully written and memorized in prophet Muhammad's life by thousands of companions and copied and conveyed by hundreds of thousands of followers throughout history till now. Which is Called “Altawator Altabaki”. Which simply means that a huge number in every generation conveyed the holy Qur’an in every point in time with the same or larger number of persons in every generation throughout time. What also Helped is that millions of Muslims pray with reciting the holy Qur’an’s verses at least 5 times a day.

    While Even in the most respected Traditions “Hadith” books that contain around 60 thousands traditions, there are very Few Traditions “Hadiths” in them that are called “Mutawatir”, but remember, it’s only “Altawator” Only, Not “Altawator Altabaki”, which simply means that they are Only conveyed and repeated a number of times, Not Even with the same number of persons throughout generations and history. So even those few do Not even compare in preservation to the Superior preservation of the holy Qur’an.

    Keep in mind that the Respected Traditions “Hadiths” Books were written decades and some books centuries after the prophet’s death. Back then There Were over 1 million traditions “Hadiths” claiming that they are the sayings and doings of the prophet Muhammed, The very most of them are simply lies. So the Traditions “Hadith” Respected Scholars made a huge respected academic effort to reduce these 1 Million Hadiths into only 60 Thousands, This effort was by tracing the trail of persons who claim they heard those “hadiths” and making a historical research for every Hadith.


    So bottom Line, There canNot be a definite non-negotiable claim that any of the 60 Thousands Hadiths in the respected books are 100% surely the sayings and doings of the Prophet Peace by upon him.

    While this claim can easily be done to the Holy Qur’an, which is a small book “600 small pages” that is used in daily worship & was fully preserved by Millions throughout history.


    Again I affirm that the traditions “Hadith” books are very important and much respected, I only also Affirm that they’re Not Holy, and we should compare every Hadith to the whole of the holy Qur’an before acting on them. Luckily Only around less than 0.05% of the 60 Thousands Hadiths clearly contradict with the Holy Qur’an very clearly, Most of the rest convey very good morals, Kindness, justness, and teachings that affirm with the holy Qur’an's teachings.

    But Remember, those 0.05% of hadiths despite their small number they had and still are having very catastrophic consequences including terrorism, child rape in the name of child marriage, murder of both Muslims and non-Muslims, hate, and tragedy. And unfortunately most of the Muslim scholars “except very few brave ones” are afraid to face this fact due to 3 reasons:

    1- They fear that some ignorant Muslims will convert to Atheism if the scholars repeated this academic known fact.

    2- They fear that some ignorant Muslims will stop performing daily prayers and rituals due to the misconception that might occur, Despite the fact that the daily prayers and rituals are also conveyed by millions throughout history, and so they are preserved by “Altawator Almogtamaei” which means that Society generation after generation passed these daily rituals father & mother to son & daughter in every generation.

    3- And finally some of these scholars fear to lose their status & profits by being the only Ones who can interpret And understand Islam, and by this they actually hijack Islam and encourage ignorance among many Lazy Muslims who do not have the eagerness to read and learn. While they know that the very first word revealed from the holy Qur’an to Prophet Muhammad is “Read”.


    Again I repeat my Full Respect to every book and every Scholar, but it’s my duty to convey the truth and advice.

    In the next post I’ll humbly elaborate on the stoning punishment issue.
     
    #8 mahmoud mrt, Oct 13, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2021
  9. mahmoud mrt

    mahmoud mrt Member

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    Now we come to the topic of the punishment of Stoning till death of the Already Married man or woman who commits Adultery with another person:

    First I repeat the Agreed Upon rule in the Islamic law “Backed up by clear verses in the holy Qur’an” that any punishment is Only done to public and explicit sins which are done publically with at least 4 Just witnesses seeing the full intercourse in its every detail.

    And also the Agreed Upon fact that Confession of sins is Not encouraged at all in Islam, and that Islamic law “Again Backed up by clear verses in the holy Qur’an” advices the sinners to keep their sins secret and repent as soon as possible, while also warning them that if they die as sinners before repenting they will probably be subjected to very hard and long punishments in the hereafter.



    This punishment of stoning till death was mentioned in some very few traditions “Hadiths” in some respected books.

    But There is No Single verse in the holy Qur’an that support it. In fact there are a number of verses in the holy Qur’an that clearly reject and contradict with this punishment. The holy Qur’an clearly states in these verses that the Only punishment for adultery for a married or non-married person is a punishment “Azab: which is an Arabic word that means torture, Not Death” of one hundred lashes:

    1- Chapter 24 Verses 1 & 2:

    “This is˺ a sûrah which We have revealed and made ˹its rulings˺ obligatory, and revealed in it clear commandments so that you may be mindful.”

    “As for female and male fornicators “Alzaniyato wa Alzany: Femal fornicator & male fornicator: Which is a clear general word for describing any man/woman who had made male to female illegal adultery”, give each of them one hundred lashes,1 and do not let pity for them make you lenient in ˹enforcing˺ the law of Allah, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a number of believers witness their punishment”.


    Another translation of the same verse 2:

    The [unmarried: This word is Not in the actual Arabic text at all, it’s just an addition from the translator, that’s why he put it in brackets] woman or [unmarried: This word is Not in the actual Arabic text at all, it’s just an addition from the translator, that’s why he put it in brackets] man found guilty of sexual intercourse1 - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes,2 and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion [i.e., law] of Allah,3 if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment.


    See how the verses are using very clear general words that describe any person who commits public man to women illegal sexual intercourse.



    I also put the next verses in the same chapter that clearly confirm that the punishment is Only done for public intercourse with 4 just witnesses seeing the full intercourse in its every detail.


    Chapter 24 Verses 3,4 & 5:

    “The fornicator does not marry except a [female] fornicator or polytheist, and none marries her except a fornicator1 or a polytheist, and that [i.e., marriage to such persons] has been made unlawful to the believers.”

    “And those who Accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient,”

    “except those who repent afterwards and mend their ways, then surely Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”


    2- In the same chapter 24 the very next verses 6 to 10:

    “And those who accuse their wives ˹of adultery˺ but have no witness except themselves, the accuser must testify, swearing four times by Allah that he is telling the truth” “and a fifth oath that Allah may condemn him if he is lying.” “For her to be spared the punishment “Azab: which is an Arabic word that means torture, Not Death”, she must swear four times by Allah that he is telling a lie,” “and a fifth oath that Allah may be displeased with her if he is telling the truth.” “˹You would have suffered,˺ had it not been for Allah’s grace and mercy upon you, and had Allah not been Accepting of Repentance, All-Wise.”



    Again very clearly in the same chapter in the same consequent verses, Not differentiating between married and unmarried persons in the punishment, it cannot get more clear than this.


    3- Chapter 4 Verse 25:

    “But if any of you cannot afford to marry a free believing woman, then ˹let him marry˺ a believing bondwoman possessed by one of you. Allah knows best ˹the state of˺ your faith ˹and theirs˺. You are from one another.1 So marry them with the permission of their owners,2 giving them their dowry in fairness, if they are chaste, neither promiscuous nor having secret affairs. If they commit indecency after marriage, they receive half the punishment of free women. This is for those of you who fear falling into sin. But if you are patient, it is better for you. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”


    This verse is talking about the old times where still captive women & men from wars was still a situation, keeping in mind that the holy Qur’an made direct clear instructions to free those captives as soon as possible and made this freeing a path to heaven, it also clearly gave them “the Captives” the right to have the time to work and buy their freedom from their masters.

    This verse talks about the free Muslim man who is poor and cannot afford to pay the dowry of a free woman, so the holy Qur’an allows him to propose to a captive woman who is under Another Muslim man, and if the captive woman agrees and her owner “Guardian” also agrees, the Muslim man is allowed to marry this captive woman paying her less dowry.


    Here comes the point, what is the punishment of the married captive woman, it’s clearly in the verse that it’s half the “Punishment: Azab” of the free woman,

    How more clearly can this be? You cannot ever Divide stoning till death to half, in addition to the fact that that the word the holy Qur’an always uses for the punishment is Not the word “Okooba: General word for punishment” but the verses use the word “Azab” which in Arabic is agreed upon that it does Not include death.


    May God guide Muslims and non- Muslims to read and gain knowledge and stop enslaving themselves to other persons even respected Scholars with all due respect to them.


    And may God bless you all.
     
    #9 mahmoud mrt, Oct 13, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2021
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