Islamic government

[Link]

This thread is long over due.

God emphasize in Quran legislation belongs to him and humans ought to look for him for all guidance and not to follow conjecture and their opinions.

It even argues for the case for Islam in that without Islam, people would pick and choose laws out of ignorance and choose leaders out of ignorance to lead them. This is both spiritually and politically.

The issue now is no one group of people have a fully correct understanding of Islam. Most people recognize this whether Muslims or non-Muslims, it's hard to claim you represent the original Islam of Mohammad (s) with all that happened in history and how unreliable hadiths can be and that interpretation of Quranic legislation can vary.

There is two different things. Getting the right Islam and that government should be ruled by who society perceives the most knowledgeable or who is best suited in leading them in place of government. The latter in Islam is about recognizing, and so society has a duty to try to recognize God's friends and be with the truthful over the deceivers, hypocrites and liars.

The believer is not a Ma'asoom. He won't understand Islam correctly, but giving it to him is better then giving government into the hands of hypocrites or disbelievers per Quranic judgment.

If the Imam (a) is present in public, we been enjoined to seek leadership only from those who would restore government back to their owners.

This for example is emphasized with Zaid and Mukhtar both said to be helpers of the Imams (a) of their time:

About the uprising of Zayd b. 'Ali b. al-Husayn (a), Imam al-Sadiq said, "he was among the scholars of the children of Muhammad (s). He became angry for the sake of God and fought the enemies until he was killed."[1] It can be understood from narrations that the uprising of Zayd was approved by Imam al-Sadiq (a), since in 'Uyun akhbar al-Rida (a), Saduq said, "When Zayd b. Musa b. Ja'far (a) rose in Basra and burned the houses of 'Abbas; Ma'mun told Imam al-Rida (a), 'that your brother Zayd did this was because Zayd b. 'Ali did so in the past and was killed. If it was not because of you, I would kill him since he did something horrible.'

Imam (a) said, 'Do not compare my brother with Zayd b. 'Ali (a)! He was among the scholars of the progeny of Muhammad (s). He raged for the sake of God and fought the enemies until he was killed. My father Musa b. Ja'far (a) heard from his father Ja'far b. Muhammad (Imam al-Sadiq (a)) saying, 'May God forgives Zayd! He called people to 'al-Rida min Al Muhammad' and if he could become successful, he would fulfill his promises. He consulted me when he wanted to rise. I told him, 'O uncle! If you are pleased to be killed and be hanged at the Kunasa of Kufa, you go on.'"[2]

He also narrated from 'Abd Allah b. Siyaba who reported that, "We were seven people and went to Imam al-Sadiq (a) in Medina. He (a) asked us, 'do you have any news about my uncle Zayd?'

We said, 'he is either risen or about to rise.'

He (a) said, 'let me know if you are informed.' After some days, we received the letter of Bassam Sayrafi in which he said, 'Zayd rose on the first Wednesday of the month of Safar and was killed on Friday.' We went to Imam al-Sadiq (a) and submitted the letter to him. He (a) read the letter and cried and then said, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and to Him do we indeed return.' (2:156) We leave [the account of] my uncle upon God. He was our man of this world and the hereafter. By God, I swear he was martyred like those martyrs accompanied the Prophet (s), 'Ali (a), al-Hasan (a) and al-Husayn (a).'"[3]

It is mentioned in another narration about rising with sword before rising Qa'im [the Riser] that, "Do not say 'Zayd revolted' since he was a knowledgeable and truthful man. He did not call you to himself but to al-rida min Al Muhammad (s). If he could become successful, he would fulfill his promises."[4]

 

[Link]

There is also this sermon of Imam Hussain (a) which speaks for itself:

from al Tawhid, p. 34, Vol. VII No. 4 Shawwal Dhu al Hijjah 1410
O people, take lesson from the counsel God gave to His friends when He rebuked the rabbis by saying:

“Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful ? Truly what they have done is evil.” (5:63)

And God says:

“Cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary are those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved on account of their rebellion and transgression. They did not prevent each other from committing vile and corrupt acts; surely what they did was abominable” (5:78-79).

God reproached them because they saw with their own eyes the oppressors committing vile and corrupt acts, but did not stop them, out of love for the favours they received from them as well as fear of persecution and injury. However, God says:

“Fear not men, but fear Me.” (5:44)

And He says:

“The believing men and women are friends and protectors to each other; they enjoin the good and forbid the evil; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and obey God and His messenger. Upon them God shall have mercy; God is Almighty, All-wise.” (9:71)

God mentions the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil (al- 'amr bi al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar) before all other duties, because He knows that if it is performed and is established in the society all other duties, the easy and the difficult, will also become established.

The reason for this is that al-'amr bi al ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar means summoning people to Islam, as well as resistance against injustice, opposing and struggling against oppressors, and endeavoring to ensure that public wealth and income derived from war are distributed in accordance with the just laws of Islam, and that taxes are collected, levied and expended in due and proper form.

O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of you, so that even powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you favours they deny themselves . When the people do not receive their due. they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty of kings and princes.

Have you not earned all this respect and prestige because of the people's hopes that you will implement God's laws, even though in most instances you have failed to do so?

You have taken lightly your duties as leaders. You have neglected the rights of the oppressed and the lowly, but have assiduously pursued what you regard as your personal rights. You have not spent your money or risked your life for the sake of the One Who gave you life, nor have you fought against any group or tribe for the sake of God.

Nevertheless, you desire - and regard it as your due - that He should grant you paradise, the company of the prophet, and security from chastisement in the hereafter. You have such expectations of God, I fear that the full weight of His wrath descend upon you, for although it is by His might and glory that you have achieved high rank, you show no respect to those who truly know god, while you yourselves enjoy respect among God's creatures on His account.

(I am also afraid for you for another reason) you see the covenant enacted with God being violated and trampled under foot, yet you show no anxiety, when it comes to the covenants enacted with your fathers, you become greatly disturbed and anxious if they are only violated in part, but the pledges you have given to the most noble Messenger are a matter of complete indifference to you.

The blind, the dumb, and chronically ill everywhere lack protection in towns and no mercy is shown them. But you neither behave in accordance with your function and rank, nor you support or pay any regard to those who do. You purchase your safety from the oppressive ruling powers with flattery cajolery, and compromise.

All these activities have been forbidden you by God, and He has, more over, command you to forbid each other to engage in them, but you pay no attention.

The calamity that has befallen you is greater than what has befallen others, for true rank and degree of “Ulama” has been taken away from you. The administration of the country and the issuing of decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and what is forbidden. But your position has been usurped from you, for no other reason than that you have abandoned the truth (al-haqq), and have disagreed about the nature of the sunnah, despite the existence of clear proofs.

Had you the forbearance to endure adversities and hardships for the sake of God, then all proposed regulations (God's affairs) would be brought to you for your approval and for you to issue; authority would lie in your hands. But you allowed the oppressors to take away your functions and God's affairs (i.e. government) to fall into their hands, so that they administer them by resorting to ambiguities and make arbitrariness and the satisfaction of lust their consistent practice.

What enabled them to gain control of government was your fleeing in panic from (inevitable) death and your love of life, which shall in all certainty depart from you. As a consequence of that mentality, you have delivered the powerless masses into the clutches of the oppressors.

While some cringe like slaves under the yoke of oppressors, and others have been reduced to destitution in regard to their livelihood, the rulers run the affairs of the government in accordance with their whims, earning ignominy and disgrace for themselves with their licentiousness, following evil counselors, and showing impudence toward God.

One of their appointed spokesmen mounts the pulpit (minbar) in each city. The country is defenseless before them, and their hands grab freely whatever they want of it. The people are their slaves and are powerless to defend themselves. One of the governors is a dictator by nature, malevolent and rancorous; another represses to recognize either God or the Day of Resurrection!

It is not strange - how can one think it strange, that society is the clutches of a cunning oppressor whose tax collectors are oppressors and whose governers feel no compassion or mercy towards the believers under rule.

It is God who will judge concerning what is dispute among us and deliver a decisive verdict concerning all that occurs among us.

O God! You know that everything we did was not prompted by rivalry for political power, nor for a search for wealth and abundance; rather it was done to demonstrate to men the shining principles and values of Your religion, to reform the affairs of Your land, to protect and secure the indisputable rights of Your oppressed servants, and to act in accordance with the duties You have established and the norms, laws, and ordinances You have decreed.

So (O scholars of religion!) You are to help us reach this goal, win back our rights from those powers who have considered it acceptable to wrong you and who have attempted to put out the light kindled by your Prophet. God suffices us, upon Him do we rely, to Him do we return, and to Him shall we return.





My comment: Now this can be proven in Quran in that knowledge and wisdom with respect to government is emphasized.

 

[Link]

The issue is Mukhtar and Zaid can be said to have risen, but also were confirmed by Imams (a) of their times, but not ordered or chosen by God.

Simon also is a successor of Isa (a) but is not chosen by God.

The four safirs are also people Imam (a) appointed but had no miracles, and so were about being recognized by other means. The means was mainly the words of Imam Mahdi (a) through them proved them.

Today, we have no safir or Imam (a) among us to verify the non-chosen leader that rises among believers. But is there other means to recognizing who we should follow?

I believe Quran shows believers have wisdom and insight and can recognize those who do have it.

What is harder now is that miracles not in the open etc, we can't expect disbelievers or hypocrites to accept believer's social and political leaders, but believers still have to bond together and hold their fort.

There is no way we can trust the enemies, after what they have done to us. No way. I don't mean in the past but recent and on going.

Their plans against us is only repelled by the plans of God.

However, Simon (a) was successor even though not chosen by God for a reason. The Successor of Simon (a) won't be recognized except by believers. And so disbelievers after Isa (a) left were expected to read the Torah and Gospels and book between. Once, they acknowledge those appointed leaders by God appointed by his revelations, then they can recognize believers and who they recognize among themselves as best to head current affairs.

Imam Mahdi (a) also said "with respect to the newly events - you are to refer to the narrators of our hadiths for they are my proofs against you and I am the proof of God".

This means scholars will be often rise and be taught by Imam Mahdi (a) but won't claim it. Instead, they will use hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) to prove the truth they learned and show Quranic insights through all that.

This way in time, Islam can be revived and we hold our fort with occurring events with relatively leadership of individuals that are from Imam Mahdi (a) and his light and his guidance, and Imam Mahdi (a) is God's proof and from God.

 

[sun rise]

TL;DR

 

[Link]

TL;DR

We choose who to give time to. To me, It's God and the sent ones I give time too.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This thread is long over due.

God emphasize in Quran legislation belongs to him and humans ought to look for him for all guidance and not to follow conjecture and their opinions.

It even argues for the case for Islam in that without Islam, people would pick and choose laws out of ignorance and choose leaders out of ignorance to lead them. This is both spiritually and politically.

The issue now is no one group of people have a fully correct understanding of Islam. Most people recognize this whether Muslims or non-Muslims, it's hard to claim you represent the original Islam of Mohammad (s) with all that happened in history and how unreliable hadiths can be and that interpretation of Quranic legislation can vary.

There is two different things. Getting the right Islam and that government should be ruled by who society perceives the most knowledgeable or who is best suited in leading them in place of government. The latter in Islam is about recognizing, and so society has a duty to try to recognize God's friends and be with the truthful over the deceivers, hypocrites and liars.

The believer is not a Ma'asoom. He won't understand Islam correctly, but giving it to him is better then giving government into the hands of hypocrites or disbelievers per Quranic judgment.

If the Imam (a) is present in public, we been enjoined to seek leadership only from those who would restore government back to their owners.

This for example is emphasized with Zaid and Mukhtar both said to be helpers of the Imams (a) of their time:

About the uprising of Zayd b. 'Ali b. al-Husayn (a), Imam al-Sadiq said, "he was among the scholars of the children of Muhammad (s). He became angry for the sake of God and fought the enemies until he was killed."[1] It can be understood from narrations that the uprising of Zayd was approved by Imam al-Sadiq (a), since in 'Uyun akhbar al-Rida (a), Saduq said, "When Zayd b. Musa b. Ja'far (a) rose in Basra and burned the houses of 'Abbas; Ma'mun told Imam al-Rida (a), 'that your brother Zayd did this was because Zayd b. 'Ali did so in the past and was killed. If it was not because of you, I would kill him since he did something horrible.'

Imam (a) said, 'Do not compare my brother with Zayd b. 'Ali (a)! He was among the scholars of the progeny of Muhammad (s). He raged for the sake of God and fought the enemies until he was killed. My father Musa b. Ja'far (a) heard from his father Ja'far b. Muhammad (Imam al-Sadiq (a)) saying, 'May God forgives Zayd! He called people to 'al-Rida min Al Muhammad' and if he could become successful, he would fulfill his promises. He consulted me when he wanted to rise. I told him, 'O uncle! If you are pleased to be killed and be hanged at the Kunasa of Kufa, you go on.'"[2]

He also narrated from 'Abd Allah b. Siyaba who reported that, "We were seven people and went to Imam al-Sadiq (a) in Medina. He (a) asked us, 'do you have any news about my uncle Zayd?'

We said, 'he is either risen or about to rise.'

He (a) said, 'let me know if you are informed.' After some days, we received the letter of Bassam Sayrafi in which he said, 'Zayd rose on the first Wednesday of the month of Safar and was killed on Friday.' We went to Imam al-Sadiq (a) and submitted the letter to him. He (a) read the letter and cried and then said, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and to Him do we indeed return.' (2:156) We leave [the account of] my uncle upon God. He was our man of this world and the hereafter. By God, I swear he was martyred like those martyrs accompanied the Prophet (s), 'Ali (a), al-Hasan (a) and al-Husayn (a).'"[3]

It is mentioned in another narration about rising with sword before rising Qa'im [the Riser] that, "Do not say 'Zayd revolted' since he was a knowledgeable and truthful man. He did not call you to himself but to al-rida min Al Muhammad (s). If he could become successful, he would fulfill his promises."[4]

I agree that there is guidance in Holy Books and sayings of Prophets.
In fact in.my opinion it is best that the Laws of a country to get inspired by Holy Books.
What I don't agree, is, one can claim that is a religious leader of a country, as a representative of God.
No body can claim to have authority to enforce Laws of God. Only a prophet or an Imam could do that. Now, no body can claim to have such an authority, to establish a government and call it Islamic, or somehow be a representative of God! No, such a right is given to anyone in the scriptures.

 

[Link]

Bring your proof since I already did mine. Simon is called successor to Isa (a) while not chosen by God. No one calls WF or sees him as representative of God. No one claims Islamic government in Iran is totally Islamic. Khamanei says we can't claim we are Islamic, but rather what we mean is our spirit is Islamic (want to submit to God not that everything they do is according to God's will).

He also said reforms in law, government, Islam, can happen, but should be done a friendly basis. A discussion should occur but not based on hostility.

Imam Hussain (a) said: "The administration of the country and the issuing of decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and what is forbidden."

Can you find a hadith that contradicts that? I doubt it and even if you do, it's confirmed by Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is also this sermon of Imam Hussain (a) which speaks for itself:

from al Tawhid, p. 34, Vol. VII No. 4 Shawwal Dhu al Hijjah 1410
O people, take lesson from the counsel God gave to His friends when He rebuked the rabbis by saying:

“Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful ? Truly what they have done is evil.” (5:63)

And God says:

“Cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary are those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved on account of their rebellion and transgression. They did not prevent each other from committing vile and corrupt acts; surely what they did was abominable” (5:78-79).

God reproached them because they saw with their own eyes the oppressors committing vile and corrupt acts, but did not stop them, out of love for the favours they received from them as well as fear of persecution and injury. However, God says:

“Fear not men, but fear Me.” (5:44)

And He says:

“The believing men and women are friends and protectors to each other; they enjoin the good and forbid the evil; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and obey God and His messenger. Upon them God shall have mercy; God is Almighty, All-wise.” (9:71)

God mentions the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil (al- 'amr bi al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar) before all other duties, because He knows that if it is performed and is established in the society all other duties, the easy and the difficult, will also become established.

The reason for this is that al-'amr bi al ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar means summoning people to Islam, as well as resistance against injustice, opposing and struggling against oppressors, and endeavoring to ensure that public wealth and income derived from war are distributed in accordance with the just laws of Islam, and that taxes are collected, levied and expended in due and proper form.

O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of you, so that even powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you favours they deny themselves . When the people do not receive their due. they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty of kings and princes.

Have you not earned all this respect and prestige because of the people's hopes that you will implement God's laws, even though in most instances you have failed to do so?

You have taken lightly your duties as leaders. You have neglected the rights of the oppressed and the lowly, but have assiduously pursued what you regard as your personal rights. You have not spent your money or risked your life for the sake of the One Who gave you life, nor have you fought against any group or tribe for the sake of God.

Nevertheless, you desire - and regard it as your due - that He should grant you paradise, the company of the prophet, and security from chastisement in the hereafter. You have such expectations of God, I fear that the full weight of His wrath descend upon you, for although it is by His might and glory that you have achieved high rank, you show no respect to those who truly know god, while you yourselves enjoy respect among God's creatures on His account.

(I am also afraid for you for another reason) you see the covenant enacted with God being violated and trampled under foot, yet you show no anxiety, when it comes to the covenants enacted with your fathers, you become greatly disturbed and anxious if they are only violated in part, but the pledges you have given to the most noble Messenger are a matter of complete indifference to you.

The blind, the dumb, and chronically ill everywhere lack protection in towns and no mercy is shown them. But you neither behave in accordance with your function and rank, nor you support or pay any regard to those who do. You purchase your safety from the oppressive ruling powers with flattery cajolery, and compromise.

All these activities have been forbidden you by God, and He has, more over, command you to forbid each other to engage in them, but you pay no attention.

The calamity that has befallen you is greater than what has befallen others, for true rank and degree of “Ulama” has been taken away from you. The administration of the country and the issuing of decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and what is forbidden. But your position has been usurped from you, for no other reason than that you have abandoned the truth (al-haqq), and have disagreed about the nature of the sunnah, despite the existence of clear proofs.

Had you the forbearance to endure adversities and hardships for the sake of God, then all proposed regulations (God's affairs) would be brought to you for your approval and for you to issue; authority would lie in your hands. But you allowed the oppressors to take away your functions and God's affairs (i.e. government) to fall into their hands, so that they administer them by resorting to ambiguities and make arbitrariness and the satisfaction of lust their consistent practice.

What enabled them to gain control of government was your fleeing in panic from (inevitable) death and your love of life, which shall in all certainty depart from you. As a consequence of that mentality, you have delivered the powerless masses into the clutches of the oppressors.

While some cringe like slaves under the yoke of oppressors, and others have been reduced to destitution in regard to their livelihood, the rulers run the affairs of the government in accordance with their whims, earning ignominy and disgrace for themselves with their licentiousness, following evil counselors, and showing impudence toward God.

One of their appointed spokesmen mounts the pulpit (minbar) in each city. The country is defenseless before them, and their hands grab freely whatever they want of it. The people are their slaves and are powerless to defend themselves. One of the governors is a dictator by nature, malevolent and rancorous; another represses to recognize either God or the Day of Resurrection!

It is not strange - how can one think it strange, that society is the clutches of a cunning oppressor whose tax collectors are oppressors and whose governers feel no compassion or mercy towards the believers under rule.

It is God who will judge concerning what is dispute among us and deliver a decisive verdict concerning all that occurs among us.

O God! You know that everything we did was not prompted by rivalry for political power, nor for a search for wealth and abundance; rather it was done to demonstrate to men the shining principles and values of Your religion, to reform the affairs of Your land, to protect and secure the indisputable rights of Your oppressed servants, and to act in accordance with the duties You have established and the norms, laws, and ordinances You have decreed.

So (O scholars of religion!) You are to help us reach this goal, win back our rights from those powers who have considered it acceptable to wrong you and who have attempted to put out the light kindled by your Prophet. God suffices us, upon Him do we rely, to Him do we return, and to Him shall we return.





My comment: Now this can be proven in Quran in that knowledge and wisdom with respect to government is emphasized.

Of course the Holy Books such as the Quran contains guidance to be used in a government.
The proper use of this, is, however to counsel the Book and learn, and use its teachings in the Laws of government.
This is however different than saying the Quran gives authority to anyone to establish a divine government, a government who claims to be a representative of God. So, suppose a country by voting chooses its ministers and leaders. Now this ministers and leaders could and should take benefits from Scriptures. But they cannot claim to representatives of God. In another words, one cannot claim that, these Religious Laws must be followed, because they are God's Law. But they can use them, because logically they are beneficial and good.

 

[Link]

So it's a semantic issue as no one claims to be representatives of God. It's even been explained "Islamic government" by Khamanei not to mean it's actually all Islamic or represents God or his teachings perfectly, all they can say "our spirit is Islamic".

So what's the issue now?

 

[Link]

He also said changes in perspective of Islamic laws and system is allowed, but should not be done on hostility. It should be done out of mutual respect and brotherhood to actually help one another. Not to dismantle. I think this is fair.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Bring your proof since I already did mine. Simon is called successor to Isa (a) while not chosen by God. No one calls WF or sees him as representative of God. No one claims Islamic government in Iran is totally Islamic. Khamanei says we can't claim we are Islamic, but rather what we mean is our spirit is Islamic (want to submit to God not that everything they do is according to God's will).

He also said reforms in law, government, Islam, can happen, but should be done a friendly basis. A discussion should occur but not based on hostility.

Imam Hussain (a) said: "The administration of the country and the issuing of decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and what is forbidden."

Can you find a hadith that contradicts that? I doubt it and even if you do, it's confirmed by Quran.

If this is what you mean by saying of Imam Hussain:

from al Tawhid, p. 34, Vol. VII No. 4 Shawwal Dhu al Hijjah 1410
O people, take lesson from the counsel God gave to His friends when He rebuked the rabbis by saying:

“Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful ? Truly what they have done is evil.

This does not mean the Scolars are allowed to estaish a divine government. It only means the scholars must provide proper guidance and as teachers. It does not mean they can rule!


There are many Hadithes, that proves this.
For example in Al-Kafi, Prophet Muhammad said, follow scholars as long as they do not engage in Worldly things!
From this, it can be easily understood a scholar is not supposed to be in a government dealing with Worldly matters!
Worldly matters includes Worldly power!


He also Said when a scholar follows [ways] of kings, you are not follow him.
In those days, the word politic did not exist, the way we have today. So, when prophet says scholars are not be like kings or get into Worldly matters, that is equivalent of saying, scholars are not to be politicians.

In fact, in Islam, the only One who is given authority as a Ruler, is the Mahdi. It is said all must just wait for His Rising. No one is to rise before the Mahdi!

 

[Link]

Nope, it's clear Imam Hussain (a) means government in their hands. Try again, and even explains that it's not a worldly thing but a responsibility they have to ensure.

 

[Link]

It's actually worldly to let in the hands of other then scholars and is out of love of Dunya. Read the whole sermon, fear of death and love of dunya, makes scholars uninvolved in politics.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The issue is Mukhtar and Zaid can be said to have risen, but also were confirmed by Imams (a) of their times, but not ordered or chosen by God.

Simon also is a successor of Isa (a) but is not chosen by God.

The four safirs are also people Imam (a) appointed but had no miracles, and so were about being recognized by other means. The means was mainly the words of Imam Mahdi (a) through them proved them.

Today, we have no safir or Imam (a) among us to verify the non-chosen leader that rises among believers. But is there other means to recognizing who we should follow?

I believe Quran shows believers have wisdom and insight and can recognize those who do have it.

What is harder now is that miracles not in the open etc, we can't expect disbelievers or hypocrites to accept believer's social and political leaders, but believers still have to bond together and hold their fort.

There is no way we can trust the enemies, after what they have done to us. No way. I don't mean in the past but recent and on going.

Their plans against us is only repelled by the plans of God.

However, Simon (a) was successor even though not chosen by God for a reason. The Successor of Simon (a) won't be recognized except by believers. And so disbelievers after Isa (a) left were expected to read the Torah and Gospels and book between. Once, they acknowledge those appointed leaders by God appointed by his revelations, then they can recognize believers and who they recognize among themselves as best to head current affairs.

Imam Mahdi (a) also said "with respect to the newly events - you are to refer to the narrators of our hadiths for they are my proofs against you and I am the proof of God".

This means scholars will be often rise and be taught by Imam Mahdi (a) but won't claim it. Instead, they will use hadiths of Ahlulbayt (a) to prove the truth they learned and show Quranic insights through all that.

This way in time, Islam can be revived and we hold our fort with occurring events with relatively leadership of individuals that are from Imam Mahdi (a) and his light and his guidance, and Imam Mahdi (a) is God's proof and from God.

All of these just means, the function of scholar is guiding, and training people. That is different from ruling, or functioning in a government and politics!

How come whe it comes to the Mahdi, it is clearly said that He can rule among people, but, for the scholars no such a thing is ever said? If the Imams or Prophet want to say that the Schoalrs are to rule among people and establish a government, they could have said that clearly, just as they have said that with regards to Mahdi!

 

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All of these just means, the function of scholar is guiding, and training people. That is different from ruling, or functioning in a government and politics!

How come whe it comes to the Mahdi, it is clearly said that He can rule among people, but, for the scholars no such a thing is ever said? If the Imams or Prophet want to say that the Schoalrs are to rule among people and establish a government, they could have said that clearly, just as they have said that with regards to Mahdi!

They did it say clearly but again, you think day of judgment is unclear in Quran, so...

 

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All of these just means, the function of scholar is guiding, and training people.

Actually that is function of Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) while scholars can all help in that, it's not their required job nor their function. Seeking enlightenment from other then Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) is wrong per hadiths. Their (scholars) required job is how Imam Hussain (a) explained.

 

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Also, doesn't make sense to forbid people with superior knowledge on matters of justice Quran guides to rule and instead allow ignorant people to rule.

The Quran could've of just left it that Talut (a) is chosen over them, but mentions superiority of knowledge as a reason as well to have more right towards authority. So aside from him being chosen, he is superior in knowledge.

Now we might have a hard time knowing who is superior in knowledge, but that is why we have to seek knowledge ourselves and see who among us has a superior nature of it as far as it goes with government.

Imam Ali (a) said about government, the most right to it is the one who is best suited for it knowledge and capability.

Imam Mahdi (a) is still the rightful king on earth, but just Zaid ibn Ali and Mukhtar are praised for trying to restore government to the one from Ahlulbayt (a) that is leader of that time, same with now. We are trying to make the conditions favorable for Imam Mahdi (a) to return and prepare the way for him.

 

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They did it say clearly but again, you think day of judgment is unclear in Quran, so...

If you know a Hadith that says scholars are to rule, while Mahdi is hidden, then please quote.

The Hadithes are clear that one of the Main missions of Mahdi is to establish True Religion. It means, the Mahdi Rises to establish the true Religion.
It is clearly said no one is to Rise before Mahdi. What does it mean, no one is to rise? It means no one is to rise to establish true Islam. This is the job of Mahdi. But, for example the Iranian uprising in year 1357, was just to establish a government which is a true Islam. Obviously they did exactly what was forbidden by Imams. What else could be called "Rising", if the revolution in 1357 is not the kind of Rising the Imams had forbidden?

 

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I already quoted the sermon of mina of Imam Hussain (a). There is hadiths about the Man from Qum rising before the Mahdi (a) so clearly you are biased in interpreting and choosing hadiths.

Zaid ibn Ali was praised for rising so you don't understand the context of these words.

 

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Also, doesn't make sense to forbid people with superior knowledge on matters of justice Quran guides to rule and instead allow ignorant people to rule.

The Quran could've of just left it that Talut (a) is chosen over them, but mentions superiority of knowledge as a reason as well to have more right towards authority. So aside from him being chosen, he is superior in knowledge.

Now we might have a hard time knowing who is superior in knowledge, but that is why we have to seek knowledge ourselves and see who among us has a superior nature of it as far as it goes with government.

Imam Ali (a) said about government, the most right to it is the one who is best suited for it knowledge and capability.

Imam Mahdi (a) is still the rightful king on earth, but just Zaid ibn Ali and Mukhtar are praised for trying to restore government to the one from Ahlulbayt (a) that is leader of that time, same with now. We are trying to make the conditions favorable for Imam Mahdi (a) to return and prepare the way for him.

Exactly. That's why world scholars are not to rule. The true scholars, do not enter the worldly matters. The scholars can be teachers of Quran, and narrate the Hadithes of Imams.