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Islam - Woman is only worth 1/2 of a man?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Snowbear, Sep 18, 2006.

  1. Ezzedean

    Ezzedean Active Member

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    BTW when the man get's more inheritance than a women... it's for a reason. God orders the male to protect and take care of the female (how unfair, why can't women take care of us??? **sarcasm**). Since the male is ordered to do such a thing, the inheritance we get has to go towards the women anyway. If my parents were rich, and when they died I got a whack load of money and my sister got a much smaller amount, and my sister needed help... it would be my duty to take care of her financially... so it all works out in the end. So technically with the money I get from inheritance if I need to help out my sister or wife, I use that money... and the money my sister gets... she get's to do whatever she wants with it (how unfair, what an ujnust God I worship... whaaa whaaa whaa booooooo hooooo).

    Peace and Blessings
     
  2. Djamila

    Djamila Bosnjakinja

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    It's important to note there are also instances where the testimony of a woman exceeds the testimony of a man in importance, for example in some forms of family law.

    "And for those who launch a charge against their spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be) that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie. But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times (with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie; And the fifth (oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her accuser) is telling the truth." (24:6-9)
     
  3. Laila

    Laila Active Member

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    It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. This verse is Surah Baqarah, chapter 2 verse 282. This verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions.

    This verse of the Qur’an deals only with financial transactions. In such cases, it is advised to make an agreement in writing between the parties and take two witnesses, preferably both of which should be men only. In case you cannot find two men, then one man and two women would suffice.

    In financial transactions, two men are preferred. Islam expects men to be the breadwinners of their families. Since financial responsibility is shouldered by men, they are expected to be well versed in financial transactions as compared to women. As a second option, the witness can be one man and two women, so that if one of the women errs the other can remind her. The Arabic word used in the Qur’an is ‘Tazil’ which means ‘confused’ or ‘to err’. Many have wrongly translated this word as ‘to forget’. Thus financial transactions constitute the only case in which two female witnesses are equal to one male witness.

    In this day and age some women are in high management and financial positions and are well versed in financial transactions. Since some men do not fufill their role as sole providers for their families I doubt this would apply for the current time.

    The rule of two female witnesses equal to one male witness cannot be applied to all cases, because one particular verse of the Qur’an from Surah Noor chapter 24, verse 6 clearly equates one female witness and one male witness.

    The seeming inequality of male and female witnesses in financial transactions is not due to any inequality of the sexes in Islam. It is only due to the different natures and roles of men and women in society as envisaged by Islam.

    REGARDING INHERITANCE.
    In Islam a woman has no financial obligation and the economical responsibility lies on the shoulders of the man. Before a woman is married it is the duty of the father or brother to look after the lodging, boarding, clothing and other financial requirements of the woman. After she is married it is the duty of the husband or the son. Islam holds the man financially responsible for fulfilling the needs of his family. In order to be able to fulfill the responsibility the men get double the share of the inheritance.
    Because of his duties a man would have to spend out of his inheritance to fulfill his duties. A women is free to keep her total inheritance to herself. In light of this it is clear that a women is not less than or equal to half a man.

    In Islam a man and women have different but complementary obligations. A women in Islam is equal to a man. Surah Al Ahzab, chapter 33 verse 35.
     
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  4. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Hey hey hey, just i want to say that Christian are the last people who supposed to talk about women because it seems that a *female* is not only not equal but DIRTY as the bible says.

    Ok, those who said as Christians they don't like. I want to make them to ask in polite way first before bashing other faiths and i'll show them how is their house is made of glass. After that, after they understood what i said, i may go on to explain the situation in islam in this issue.

    You started it folks, sorry.

    "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days." Leviticus 12:2-5

    Ops, did someone said women are less than human? :ignore:

    Oh ya, not only she is will be dirty but also if she bare a male so her status of being dirty is not euqal as well when she bare a female.

    Another thing ...


    "And if a woman have an issue (her period/menses), [and] her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even. And every thing that she lieth upon in her separation shall be unclean: every thing also that she sitteth upon shall be unclean. And whosoever toucheth her bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even. And whosoever toucheth any thing that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even. And if it [be] on [her] bed, or on any thing whereon she sitteth, when he toucheth it, he shall be unclean until the even. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him, he shall be unclean seven days; and all the bed whereon he lieth shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she [shall be] unclean. Every bed whereon she lieth all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation: and whatsoever she sitteth upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever toucheth those things shall be unclean, and shall wash his clothes, and bathe [himself] in water, and be unclean until the even. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And the priest shall offer the one [for] a sin offering, and the other [for] a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness." Leviticus 15:19-30

    Now, after this, if you want to compare christianity claiming it's better with women than islam so i'll go on and on and you know well what the bible says about women. Nevertheless, if you came to me asking in respectful way about this issue and why is it that way in islam then ONLY at that moment i'll start talking about Islam only. Please don't try me again in this way because you will regret it, Deal?
     
  5. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    I didn't. I was responding to another post.
    Those quotes you gave are from the Old Testament. They are Mosaic Law. They may still be part of Jewish Covenant, but not for (most) Christians. Jesus took care of all that for us when He established the New Covenant.

    Re-read the OP and you will see this thread is not to compare Christianity and Islam. It is a question about the Quran and Islam's application of it.

    I did that in the OP. You simply too my response to another post and ran with that.

    If you care to justify the ISLAM view of women, please do so. If not, why are you here? At the least, why don't you try to refute what I pointed out in the first post(s)? Or even take it a step further - show me a few... say 10... of the 'hundreds of examples where the Quran gave women equality where they had none before and show me how they are applied to women today.

    I've found 2 examples in the Quran, but have seen no evidence of their application to day. So please, how about enlighten me on this.... if you can.

    No deal. Threats will get you nowhere with me.
     
  6. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    They can and do ... if you let them :D
    Thanks for the explanation of this.

    A question - Who takes care of a woman whose male relatives have all been wiped out by ethnic cleansing or war?
     
  7. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    I noticed this verse before.... Thank you for pointing it out, Djamila :)

    A question - is this verse (I'm assuming it's about a husband accusing his wife of infidelity?) saying that even if the man makes his 5 oaths, if the women makes 5 oaths denying the charge then she cancels out his testimony?
     
  8. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    Thank you very much Laila for your straightforward answers :)
    Is the scenario of men not being the sole providers true only in Western societies, or is that the case in the Middle East as well?
    If all of a woman's male relatives are killed by so-called 'ethnic cleansing' or war, who takes care of her and her remaining female relatives? I'm sure they would get the whole inheritance, since there are no males left. But my question actually pertains more to the societies where women are not allowed to drive or work or in some cases even leave their own homes without a related male escort.... the inheritance can only go so far.... unless there is a new husband available to step in, who is charged with taking care of her?
     
  9. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    Yes I did.... and I had to leave for a while before I could get to a reply :)
     
  10. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I was just doing the same thing. Go back and read what i said ...

    It was a respond to this one ..

    Got it?

    That wasn't directed at you.

    Ok then take out the OT from the bible.

    Ok then.

    http://www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/dawah/0030.htm
     
  11. retrorich

    retrorich SUPER NOT-A-MOD

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    Which half of a man are we talking about? ;)
     
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  12. arthra

    arthra Baha'i

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    I just thought I'd review some of the posts here and offer a thought or two..

    Whenever we compare religions and the various ordinances and provisions in them we should always bear in mind the historical and social context the verses were revealed in.. So just off the "top of our heads"..today it appears to some that there is inequality in Islam with regard to women..but saying that, we have to also acknowledge that few systems of governance proclaimed the equality of men and women before the nineteenth century.

    Slaves, indentured servants, blacks, Amercian Indians and women were not enfranchised citizens of the United States until long after it's founding.

    Women couldn't vote in the United States until after WWI and very few women were admitted to medical schools early in the twentieth century.

    We must see the advancement of women in the wider context...

    For the time it was revealed the provisions of the Qur'an for women were advanced...

    - Art
     
  13. Djamila

    Djamila Bosnjakinja

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    We've been discussing this for so long literally, with verses from the Koran, and so on... but why not just discuss it from our experience as well?

    I can count on one hand the number of times I've been diminished, ridiculed, disrespected, and so on by Muslim men. In their company I always feel safe, I feel appreciated.

    I've had a few tense discussions with male, Muslim friends - usually about religion or politics - but I've never been dismissed just because I'm a woman.

    Even on this forum, someone once asked me in private - since I seem to always be fighting with the Muslim men around here about something or other, my profile photo shows my face and hair, and so on - if these Muslim men are rude to me. I felt like he asked if the world was square.

    I said - of course not. I'm sure, if this forum was a community center in real life, there are one or two who would be holding up a blanket to try to cover me from the eyes of everyone else but in terms of being rude or mean to me, personally, absolutely not. Just the opposite. They're as nice to me as if we were a couple just getting over a little arguement.
     
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  14. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    Really? Then why was it included in the post in which you quoted me and replied to my post? Who was it directed at?
    Bwahahahahahahahaha ... :biglaugh:
    Um... TT.... that doesn't help your case. In fact, I'd say it does the opposite :eek:
    The implication that men don't forget because they don't menstruate is hilarious :D

    So.... where are those 10 examples out of the hundreds?
     
  15. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    Your perspective is encouraging, Djamila... Thank you :)
    It seems that Bosnia as a culture is a lot more 'Western-thinking' than many mostly-Muslim cultures. Do you find that to be the case?
     
  16. Djamila

    Djamila Bosnjakinja

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    Hmmm... I actually think Bosnian culture is very traditional compared to Western Europe, but not because it's Muslim. It's traditional as is Portugal, Spain, Italy, Croatia, etc... the whole of southern Europe.

    I think we just get accepted more because we're white, Slavic race. People can't tell us from Caucasians.
     
  17. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    I'm actually not talking about 'being accepted' as Muslims. Truthfully, based on your avatar, you don't look caucasion to me.... the closest 'western' race you appear to me is Native American (not the Alaska Native variety - though most caucasians lump the two into a single 'race.' To me they are beautiful in their own right, but have more asian features) ;)

    In my question to you, I'm actually asking more about the attitudes of Muslim men and women toward Muslim women in your culture?
     
  18. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    I told you about the thing which was in my mind, whether to take it or leave it, it's up to you.

    [SIZE=-1]Following are some rights, which Muslim women have!

    1. The RIGHT and duty to acquire education.

    2. The RIGHT to have her own independent property.

    3. The RIGHT to work [job or business] to earn money, which she keeps it.

    4. The RIGHT to equal reward for equal deed and/or work.

    5. The RIGHT to express her opinion.

    6. The RIGHT to argue and/or advocate her cause or opinion to be heard.

    7. The RIGHT to vote since more than 1400 years.

    8. The RIGHT to provisions from her husband for all her needs and more.

    9. The RIGHT to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

    10.The RIGHT to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply don't like him. In Islaam divorce is suppose to be last resort.

    11.The RIGHT to keep all her own money. [She is not responsible for maintenance of family].

    12.The RIGHT to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

    13.The RIGHT to get custody of her children in case of divorce [unless she is unable to raise them for valid reasons]

    14.The RIGHT to choose husband of her choice.

    15.The RIGHT to refuse a proposed and/or arranged marriage.

    16. The RIGHT to re-marry after divorce or after becoming widow.

    EXEMPTIONS GIVEN TO WOMEN IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCE.

    Women are exempt from:

    a.. Fasting when they are pregnant or nursing or menstruating,
    b.. Praying when menstruating or bleeding after childbirth,
    c.. The obligation to attend congregational prayers in the mosque on Fridays.
    d.. They are not obliged to take part as soldiers in the defense of Islam, although they are not forbidden to do so.
    But under normal circumstances they are allowed to do all the things that men do.

    - Even when they are menstruating, on special days, like the two Eid festivals, they are still allowed to come to the Eid prayers, and menstruating women can take part in most of the actions of the Hajj pilgrimage.

    Islamic laws does not requires that women should confine themselves to household duties.

    Muslim women have [and are as well] headed Islamic provinces [and states as well], like Arwa bint Ahmad, who served as governor of Yemen under the Fatimid Khalifahs in the late fifth and early sixth century.

    Name any other religion, political theory, or philosophy which offers such a comprehensiveness to women by giving her total control of her life and affairs ??? NONE

    Think on this![/SIZE]
     
  19. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    How about the Quran references for these?
    Or am I supposed to take your word for this as well?
    Just from what I see here, I find the implications of some of these as support for my own argument. (i.e.they get dispensation to pray during menstruation only during certain festivals.... What this tells me is that most of the time a woman is banned from prayer during her period. Since you didn't bother to include Quran references, I'll just take your word for this as well ;))
     
  20. TashaN

    TashaN Veteran Member
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    Some might say, i want to see this in real life. The answer is, we are not perfect, and the more the length of time between us muslims and when prophet Mohammed died is long, the more many muslims are going back to their custom and culture before islam or to make it mix between islam and their culture but it's NOT THE REAL TEACHING OF ISLAM. Nevertheless, we are not ignorant nor stupid to neglect the basic rights for women, and many organizations and scholars are working on to return the Muslims to the real teachong of islam and to what God (s.w.t) and his messenger, prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him" taught us about, to give the women their full right with respect. Here are some examples of developing and returning to the teaching of islam and abandoning the customs and culture from it's influnce in muslims life.

    Articles on Muslim Women

    USA

    US Army Reservist Hopes To Serve As Female Muslim Chaplain

    An Army major studying to become the military’s first female Muslim chaplain says she hopes to fill a void for the Muslim community and build relationships with people of other faiths.


    By Karen Jowers, Army Times, December 24, 2001

    America's First Muslimah Judge

    Zakia Mahasa, Master Chancery in the Family Division of the Baltimore City Circuit Court

    by Nadirah Z. Sabir, Azizah magazine.​

    Azizah

    The magazine for the contemporary Muslim woman, the magazine American Muslimahs have been waiting for.

    Azizah magazine addresses issues pertinent to Muslim women, profiles sisters whose lives and achievements inspire us, and highlight ideas and events that empower and entertain us. Azizah reflects what Muslim women are doing, saying, and thinking today - our unique interests and concerns, our contributions to the local and world communities, our lives.


    More in Hawai'i turn to Islam

    Less than three weeks after terrorists struck New York City and Washington, US Navy petty officer Heather Ramaha stood among a group of women at the mosque in Manoa and converted to Islam

    By Mary Kaye Ritz, Honolulu Advertiser, November 11, 2001.

    Islam finds Western women to be rising force among converts

    Muslims say the religion is more forward-thinking on gender than many Western traditions, writes Michael Paulson.

    Born in the U.S.A

    A New American Islam Proves Devotion and Women's Liberation Do Mix

    By Miriam Udel Lambert.​

    Challenges Facing American Muslim Women

    Muslim women in America often face discrimination from their own Muslim community. Discrimination by Muslims primarily results from ignorance about Islam and the importation of cultural attitudes that demean women. Islam is often interpreted in ways that are sexist and not true to the true teachings of equality in the Quran and the model provided by Prophet Muhammad [​IMG].

    Samer Hathout​

    Opportunities Facing American Muslim Women


    As Americans, we have a unique opportunity to practice Islam in its true form -- without much of the cultural or traditional baggage that is oppressive to women... Because we have these opportunities, we must use them to clearly state our position and to fight to end the oppression suffered by women.​

    Asifa Quraishi​


    UK

    Muslim comic sees the funny side
    Female Muslim comic Shazia Mirza, who believes her act is helping break down cultural barriers and overcome ignorance, has found her work in great demand in Britain, Pakistan and the US.

    BBC News, Friday, 19 October, 2001

    Shazia Mirza

    In her own words.

    Why British Women are turning to Islam

    The Times, Tuesday, 9th November 1993

    Lucy Berrington finds the Muslim Faith is winning Western admirers

    despite hostile media coverage​

    Woman on a Mission

    Scottish woman converts her extended family and 30 friends and neighbours to Islam.

    The Guardian, Thursday 8th May 1997

    Hijab Option for London Policewomen

    The Metropolitan Police in London has accepted Hijab as a uniform option for Muslim women serving in the force.




    India and Pakistan

    Help for Pakistan's acid attack victims


    A chain of beauty salons in Pakistan is gearing up to cater for a new kind of client - burn victims whose beauty treatments will be more than skin deep.​

    BBC News, 4 August, 2003​

    Indian woman's long journey home


    Memories of Ramadan help a woman abducted as a child in India and then taken to Switzerland by her adopted parents to make a remarkable journey to find her roots.​

    BBC News, 4 August, 2003​

    Change in the air

    Pamela Philipose examines the situation of Muslim women in modern India and discovers hopeful signs.



    The Indian Express, April 19, 2000


    The situation of women in Pakistan

    "No nation can rise to the height of glory unless your women are side by side with you; we are victims of evil customs. It is a crime against humanity that our women are shut up within the four walls of the houses as prisoners. There is no sanction anywhere for the deplorable condition in which our women have to live."

    Mohammad Ali Jinnah, 1944



     
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