Islam without hadith

[Smoke]

On another thread, several Muslims remarked that they didn't believe in the hadith. I'd heard of Muslims who didn't accept any hadith, but I hadn't had any encounter with them (that I knew about) before this, so I thought it was a good opening for a discussion on the subject.

What are some of the advantages and disadvantages of Islam without hadith?

Do some hadith contradict the Qur'an? Which ones?

Could concentrating on the Qur'an, without hadith, be a way to unity between the various schools of Islam, or is it likely remain objectionable to both Sunni and Shi'a Muslims?

 

[Djamila]

In my opinion, Islam without the hadiths is the only way to be certain you are truly following the teachings of God as the Koran intended.

One of the hadiths accepted as authentic even says:

"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel3/12,21,39)

And the Koran itself has no need for hadiths, it clearly says:

"Shall I seek OTHER THAN THE GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED?"
(Quran, 6:114)

Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what HADEETH will they believe after God and His Signs? (Quran 45.6)

Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADEETH after this will they then believe? (Quran 7.185)

In my opinion, this tells us the Koran is complete, as it says itself nothing was left out of this book. Thus, there simply is no need for hadiths, especially not when they were written by men, they contradict the Koran, and even today scholars and cultures choose for themselves which bits to believe and which bits are wrong.

We're simply not qualified to do that. I would fear for my soul if I believed in the hadiths, but following just the Koran I have no fear - even if the hadiths are correct. So it seems the most logical course of action to me.

 

[smiling4ever]

What are the differences among the following terms: Holy Qur’an, the hadith (saying, action or approval of the prophet pbuh) and the qudsi (sacred) hadith?

The Holy Qur’an is the primary source of Islamic law. It tells how a good Muslim should be and how he should behave with his family and in society at large. The rules set by the Qur’an are religiously binding and no Muslim is allowed to break these rules. The Qur’an was revealed to prophet Mohammad (pbuh) in a sequence and on certain occasions that necessitated certain rules. Each sura was either revealed in full or in part according the occasion. The prophet (pbuh) used to ask the revelation writers of his companions to write down what was revealed, and that is how the Holy Qur’an was preserved. The prophet used to recite verses of the Holy Qur’an in his prayers and during his Friday sermons, and teach it to his companions. Ibn Masoud said: “I memorized from the mouth of the Prophet seventy suras of the Holy Qur’an.” (Agreed upon)
. The companions used to memorize the Holy Qur’an to recite it in their prayers.

It was the divine inspiration that was used to reveal the verse and show its location in the Holy Qur’an. This is why the arranged sequence of the verses and suras in the Holy Qur’an is divine and cannot be tampered with by humans. The Holy Qur’an challenged the Arabs, who were well versed in language, to write an equivalent book to the Qur’an, ten suras, or even one sura. But they failed to do so, and so did the one who followed until our present day, and those who attempted came out with some funny texts.

The tradition or hadith of the prophet is defined as any “sayings and/or actions of the prophet (pbuh)”. The differences between the Holy Qur’an and the hadith can be summarized in the following points:
1. The Holy Qur’an is the word of God, which is unique in its style, rhythm and content.

2. The wording, meaning, style, stories, proverbs and laws of the Holy Qur’an are miraculous.

3. God has promised to preserve this miracle, the Holy Qur’an, from any changes or alterations till the Day of Judgment. He says: “We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)” (Holy Qur’an: 15: 9). Therefore, it is one of the conditions of correct reading that the style of writing should be identical to that which was written in era of caliph Uthman, which was in turn identical to the version that was written in the time of prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

4. The Holy Qur’an has been transmitted from one generation to the other in a traditionary way (tawatur), whereby reciters of the Holy Qur’an have been groups of people who could not have conspired to lie. Therefore, the Holy Qur’an has been the most correct book on earth since it was revealed through Angel Gabriel to the Prophet (pbuh).

5. Anyone denying the authenticity of the Holy Qur’an –or part of it- is regarded as blasphemous (kafir).

6. The Holy Qur’an consists of a limited number of chapters (suras) amounting to 114 suras, and each sura is divided into smaller parts called verses (ayat).

7. Reciting certain verses of the Holy Qur’an in each prayer is obligatory, and no prayer is true unless verses of the Qur’an are recited in it.

8. Anyone with minor ritual impurity is not allowed to touch the Holy Qur’an, and anyone with a major ritual impurity is not allowed to recite it.

9. Muslims are rewarded one merit for reading each letter of the Holy Qur’an.

10. The Holy Qur’an should be recited literally and not in the form of interpretation.

The above are the main characteristics of the Holy Qur’an that distinguish it from all other religious texts, including the traditions of the prophet hadith.

The qudsi (sacred) hadith are those that did not originate from the prophet (pbuh), but from God. Thus, the qudsi hadith occupies an intermediate place between the Holy Qur’an and the tradition of the prophet (nabawi hadith). The wording, meaning and sequence of the Holy Qur’an were revealed from God directly to the prophet (pbuh). The qudsi hadith was revealed as meaning only to the Prophet (pbuh) from almighty God, but the wording was from the Prophet (pbuh) himself. Therefore, the qudsi hadiths share with the Holy Qur’an the quality of being ascribed to almighty God, and differ with it in all other qualities. The qudsi hadith shares the qualities of the nabawi hadith in being subject to categorization: true, sound, or weak hadith. The qudsi hadith can not be recited in prayers, a person with minor ritual impurity may touch the book containing it, a person with a major ritual impurity may recite it, and it can be related in the form of interpretation, etc.
The tradition of the Prophet (pbuh) differs from the qudsi hadith, although they were both inspired by almighty God in the light of what He says in the Holy Qur’an: “For Allah hath sent down to thee the Book and Wisdom and taught thee what thou knewest not (before)” (Holy Qur’an: 4: 113); and
“Nor does he (the Prophet) say (aught) of (his own) Desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down to him” (Holy Qur’an: 53: 3-4).

The prophet (pbuh) also says “I have been given the Holy Qur’an and another similar thing” in a reference to the fact that the qudsi hadith was revealed by God like the Holy Qur’an. But while the Qur’an was a direct revelation, the qudsi hadith was a mere inspiration. It must be stressed that the tradition of the prophet was guided by God so that the prophet (pbuh) would not do anything against the teachings of Islamic laws. It is in this sense that the tradition of the prophet is ascribed to divine inspiration as well.

 

[TashaN]

Hi dear MidnightBlue, these times some muslims are trying to reject the hadith for many reasons but no need to mention the reasons because we will go so far before answering your question.

Thanks for passing by and i'll be glad to discuss with you about.

What are some of the advantages and disadvantages of Islam without hadith?

Some people think that some of the advantages are that muslims won't have any difficulty to be united, all of them, but this is not true for several reasons. One and the most important one is that if we depends sloely in the Quran so every muslim will have his/her interpetation of the Quran and this will cause muslims to differ more instead of being united. In another word, they will be just united by name but so so far from each other in practicing and in dealing with islamic issues.

On the other hand, Our need for the Sunnah is so great, that without it our religion would be incomplete.

Do some hadith contradict the Qur'an? Which ones?

There is no correct "Sahih" hadith which contradict with Quran unless if it was false one.

Could concentrating on the Qur'an, without hadith, be a way to unity between the various schools of Islam, or is it likely remain objectionable to both Sunni and Shi'a Muslims?

The shi'a too depend in the hadith but sometimes they have some hadiths which Suunis don't accept and vice versa.

Before the advent of the Prophet Muhammad Sall Allahu alaihi wa sallam, every nation on this planet had received a Messenger. The purpose of these Messengers was to instruct their people in how to worship Allaah correctly. The Prophet Muhammad Sall Allahu alaihi wa sallam was no exception to this. If we had been given the Qur'an on its own, then most of us who are Muslims would have gone astray through our own interpretations of this book. Rather, Allaah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala through his mercy, sent a noble Messenger who came to explain this Qur'an so that the people of the earth may understand their Creator better.

These links might be so helpful to understand the importance of Sunnah in islam.

http://www.muslimtents.com/aminahsworld/What_is_the_sunnah.html

http://www.islamonline.com/cgi-bin/news_service/spot_full_story.asp?service_id=646

http://www.islamonline.net/English/Living_Shariah/HadithItsSciences/HadithMethodology/2006/05/01.shtml

 

[TashaN]

Hadith is integral to the Qur’an, since they are inseparably linked to each other. It is impossible to understand the Qur’an without reference to Hadith. The Qur’an is the message, and the Hadith is the explanation of the message by the Messenger himself. I mention the following points to clarify the issue:

1. The Qur’an makes it abundantly clear that the function of the Messenger is not merely that of a deliveryman who simply delivers the revelation from Allah to us. Rather, he has been entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating the same. This is a point mentioned in a number of verses in the Qur’an:

[And We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.] (An-Nahl 16:44)

[And We have revealed the Scripture unto thee only that thou mayst explain unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.] (An-Nahl 16:64)

Therefore, Hadith explains, clarifies, and removes ambiguities about the Qur’an. Hence, once we reject the Hadith, we may never be able to figure out the whole meaning of the Qur’an.

2. Much of Islam will remain mere abstract concepts without Hadith. We would never know how to pray, fast, pay zakah, or make pilgrimage without the illustration found in Hadith, for these acts of worship remain as abstract imperatives in the Qur’an.

3. The Qur’an tells us the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has taught not only the Book but also the wisdom (See Qur’an: 96:2; 33:34; 4:113, etc.) As Imam Shafi`i stated, the wisdom mentioned here is the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); so if we were to reject the Hadith, we would be rejecting the Qur’an itself.

4. The Qur’an tells us to obey the Messenger and abide by his decision:
[But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:65)

[So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah’s Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers.] (Al-Ma’idah 5:48)

Where do we find such decisions except in the Hadith?​

Last but not least, the Qur’an orders the faithful to emulate the role model of the Messenger and reckons it as the only way to gain the pleasure of Allah. It is therefore imperative that we look up to his morals and behavior and emulate them in our lives. We can never do so without studying the Hadith. It is most illuminating in this respect to learn that when `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) was asked to describe the character of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), her definitive answer was, “His character was the Qur’an.” In other words, he personified the best ideals and values of the Qur’an. How could we then neglect the Hadith, which alone can lead us to the precise ways in which the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) exemplified the Qur’anic ideals.

Having said this, however, we must never fall into the temptation of taking all that is found in the works of Hadith as being authentic or genuine.

Hadith at all times must be evaluated by the well-established rules of validation as established by the great scholars. Such firm criteria include the following: If a certain hadith is contrary to the well-established principles of the Qur’an or sound reason, it must be rejected (since, obviously, it cannot be authentic.)​

 

[TashaN]

"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel3/12,21,39)

That's because they were writing it at the same time with Quran so prophet Mohammed didn't want them to get busy with writing his words instead of God's words and that's because they were seeing prophet Mohammed act and they were imitating him but how we will learn to act like him, pray, fast, etc without hadith? we can't.

And the Koran itself has no need for hadiths, it clearly says:

"Shall I seek OTHER THAN THE GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed THIS BOOK FULLY DETAILED?"
(Quran, 6:114)

My sister. You can notice that before this verse there is two other verses and even you didn't continue the same verse to know for sure the meaning of it and if we had no hadith to explain it, so each one of us in this forum would interpret this verse as he/she please, isn't it?

[112] Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy, evil ones among men and Jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception if thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.


[113] To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the Hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.


[114] Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? When He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

The explinations of this verse as it's clear from the sequence of verses that this verses was targeting the unbelievers, idol worshippers because how do you think that God would send prophet Mohammed as a Messenger ordering him to deliver the revelation of Quran then to say that God forbid the Sunnah and hadith which is the explination of Quran.

Verse 114 was to whom? to those in verse 113, and what does verse 113 says?

To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith ......

Then: say to them ...

Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah?

Do you think prophet Mohammed or his hadith with no faith (God forbid) as verse 113 explain?

Such are the Signs of God, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what HADEETH will they believe after God and His Signs? (Quran 45.6)

[6] Such are Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in truth: then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?


[7] Woe to each sinful dealer in Falsehoods:


[8] He hears the Signs of Allah rehearsed to him, yet is obstinate and lofty, as if he had not heard them: then announce to him a Penalty Grievous!

Put any verse in it's context to understand it my sister.

Do you think verse 7 and 8 which comes after the one you mentioned is directed toward prophet Mohammed and his hadith? sinful dealer ???

Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that God hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what HADEETH after this will they then believe? (Quran 7.185)

[185] Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their term is nigh drawing to an end? In what Message after this will they then believe?


[186] To such as Allah rejects from His guidance, there can be no guide: He will leave them in their trespasses, wandering in distraction.

Read verse 186 and tell me if it's directed toward prophet Mohammed and his hadith, my sister.

Even before we have a look at the explination of these verse we just have to see what is thise verse is talking about through reading the verses before and after because picking verse from here and there is meaningless when dealing with any holy book.

Maybe MidnightBlue know about that as well.

When you go to the hadith even you will know the details of the events and why every single verse was revealed through 23 years because it was revealed according to the events in the life of prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him".

No offence my sister but when it comes to the use of Quran out of it's context, i can't be quite toward it because God will ask me if i saw somthing and i didn't show the truth in it. That's why i tried to explain for you about the verses and how to deal with Quran in the future in it's context. Nevertheless, i didn't comment in your plain opnions but just about the sources from Quran and hadith which you believe in it as back up for your arguments.

I hope that you will take this post as a brother explaining to his sister because i respect you alot and you have alot of things to share but it's also our duty to enlighten each other as brothers and sisters in islam. When you find a mistake in what i say or do you must tell me and it's your duty to do so so i can reform myself and correct it and it's my duty as well to do the same exact thing.

Peace and blessing my lovely sister,

The Truth

 

[Peace]

Hadith is integral to the Qur’an, since they are inseparably linked to each other. It is impossible to understand the Qur’an without reference to Hadith. The Qur’an is the message, and the Hadith is the explanation of the message by the Messenger himself. I mention the following points to clarify the issue:​

1. The Qur’an makes it abundantly clear that the function of the Messenger is not merely that of a deliveryman who simply delivers the revelation from Allah to us. Rather, he has been entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating the same. This is a point mentioned in a number of verses in the Qur’an:​

[And We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst explain to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.] (An-Nahl 16:44)​

[And We have revealed the Scripture unto thee only that thou mayst explain unto them that wherein they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.] (An-Nahl 16:64)​

Therefore, Hadith explains, clarifies, and removes ambiguities about the Qur’an. Hence, once we reject the Hadith, we may never be able to figure out the whole meaning of the Qur’an.​

2. Much of Islam will remain mere abstract concepts without Hadith. We would never know how to pray, fast, pay zakah, or make pilgrimage without the illustration found in Hadith, for these acts of worship remain as abstract imperatives in the Qur’an.​

3. The Qur’an tells us the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) has taught not only the Book but also the wisdom (See Qur’an: 96:2; 33:34; 4:113, etc.) As Imam Shafi`i stated, the wisdom mentioned here is the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); so if we were to reject the Hadith, we would be rejecting the Qur’an itself.​

4. The Qur’an tells us to obey the Messenger and abide by his decision:
[But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.] (An-Nisaa’ 4:65)​

[So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires, but beware of them lest they seduce thee from some part of that which Allah hath revealed unto thee. And if they turn away, then know that Allah’s Will is to smite them for some sin of theirs. Lo! many of mankind are evil-livers.] (Al-Ma’idah 5:48)​

Where do we find such decisions except in the Hadith?​

Last but not least, the Qur’an orders the faithful to emulate the role model of the Messenger and reckons it as the only way to gain the pleasure of Allah. It is therefore imperative that we look up to his morals and behavior and emulate them in our lives. We can never do so without studying the Hadith. It is most illuminating in this respect to learn that when `A’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) was asked to describe the character of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), her definitive answer was, “His character was the Qur’an.” In other words, he personified the best ideals and values of the Qur’an. How could we then neglect the Hadith, which alone can lead us to the precise ways in which the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) exemplified the Qur’anic ideals.

Having said this, however, we must never fall into the temptation of taking all that is found in the works of Hadith as being authentic or genuine. ​

Hadith at all times must be evaluated by the well-established rules of validation as established by the great scholars. Such firm criteria include the following: If a certain hadith is contrary to the well-established principles of the Qur’an or sound reason, it must be rejected (since, obviously, it cannot be authentic.)​

Well said :clap I wholeheartedly agree with what my brother The Truth stated here. Jazakallah khayran brother!!

Peace

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

On another thread, several Muslims remarked that they didn't believe in the hadith. I'd heard of Muslims who didn't accept any hadith, but I hadn't had any encounter with them (that I knew about) before this, so I thought it was a good opening for a discussion on the subject.

What are some of the advantages and disadvantages of Islam without hadith?

There are no advantages, you must have the hadeeth, (authentic)

Do some hadith contradict the Qur'an? Which ones?

Yes, the forgeries and additions

Could concentrating on the Qur'an, without hadith, be a way to unity between the various schools of Islam, or is it likely remain objectionable to both Sunni and Shi'a Muslims?

Shia and Sunna problems go far beyond hadith. When you say schools do you mean the schools of islamic jurisprudence?

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

That's because they were writing it at the same time with Quran so prophet Mohammed didn't want them to get busy with writing his words instead of God's words and that's because they were seeing prophet Mohammed act and they were imitating him but how we will learn to act like him, pray, fast, etc without hadith? we can't.



My sister. You can notice that before this verse there is two other verses and even you didn't continue the same verse to know for sure the meaning of it and if we had no hadith to explain it, so each one of us in this forum would interpret this verse as he/she please, isn't it?

[112] Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy, evil ones among men and Jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception if thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it: so leave them and their inventions alone.


[113] To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the Hereafter: let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may.


[114] Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? When He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

The explinations of this verse as it's clear from the sequence of verses that this verses was targeting the unbelievers, idol worshippers because how do you think that God would send prophet Mohammed as a Messenger ordering him to deliver the revelation of Quran then to say that God forbid the Sunnah and hadith which is the explination of Quran.

Verse 114 was to whom? to those in verse 113, and what does verse 113 says?

To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith ......

Then: say to them ...

Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah?

Do you think prophet Mohammed or his hadith with no faith (God forbid) as verse 113 explain?



[6] Such are Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in truth: then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?


[7] Woe to each sinful dealer in Falsehoods:


[8] He hears the Signs of Allah rehearsed to him, yet is obstinate and lofty, as if he had not heard them: then announce to him a Penalty Grievous!

Put any verse in it's context to understand it my sister.

Do you think verse 7 and 8 which comes after the one you mentioned is directed toward prophet Mohammed and his hadith? sinful dealer ???



[185] Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their term is nigh drawing to an end? In what Message after this will they then believe?


[186] To such as Allah rejects from His guidance, there can be no guide: He will leave them in their trespasses, wandering in distraction.

Read verse 186 and tell me if it's directed toward prophet Mohammed and his hadith, my sister.

Even before we have a look at the explination of these verse we just have to see what is thise verse is talking about through reading the verses before and after because picking verse from here and there is meaningless when dealing with any holy book.

Maybe MidnightBlue know about that as well.

When you go to the hadith even you will know the details of the events and why every single verse was revealed through 23 years because it was revealed according to the events in the life of prophet Mohammed "peace be upon him".

No offence my sister but when it comes to the use of Quran out of it's context, i can't be quite toward it because God will ask me if i saw somthing and i didn't show the truth in it. That's why i tried to explain for you about the verses and how to deal with Quran in the future in it's context. Nevertheless, i didn't comment in your plain opnions but just about the sources from Quran and hadith which you believe in it as back up for your arguments.

I hope that you will take this post as a brother explaining to his sister because i respect you alot and you have alot of things to share but it's also our duty to enlighten each other as brothers and sisters in islam. When you find a mistake in what i say or do you must tell me and it's your duty to do so so i can reform myself and correct it and it's my duty as well to do the same exact thing.

Peace and blessing my lovely sister,

The Truth

Alhumdulilah, may Allah reward you for your post and may the sister seek the guidance of Allah and interpret our religion from the source and leave alone the personal interpretations which may lead to error.

 

[Djamila]

That's because they were writing it at the same time...

I'm sorry, The Truth, but everything you've said doesn't change my interpretation of the verses at all. A few of your suggestions don't even make sense to me, and the rest seem to be just another interpretation. I can read the same verses and take something completely different away from them.

For me, the basic truth is that the Koran is complete, as God said - nothing is left out of this book. That is explicitly clear, I'd like to think that's beyond anyone's personal interpretation - and that alone negates the need for any hadith.

Combine this with the other verses I and you listed, and it only strengthens that belief for me. To imply that you need more than the Koran is to imply to Koran is flawed or, at the very least, incomplete - and that's a road I'll never be willing to walk. Especially not with books written often centuries later by men who knew nothing of what took place besides heresay, books that often contradict the Koran.

The Koran says God suffices as witness, I don't need men who lived centuries later pretending to be witnesses in order for me to practice our faith.

I would lay down my life for the Koran, I wouldn't spit to put out a burning hadith.

God, and God alone. Koran, and Koran alone. I'd be absolutely terrified to fool myself into believing anything else.

 

[Smoke]

Shia and Sunna problems go far beyond hadith. When you say schools do you mean the schools of islamic jurisprudence?

I'm sorry that was unclear. I meant something less precise, schools of thought rather than the traditional schools of jurisprudence. That is, do the reliance on hadith, the differences between collections of hadith, and different views on hadith contribute to disunity among Sunni Muslims, among Shi'a Muslims, and/or between Sunnis and Shi'a?

As long as you must interpret the Qur'an in light of the hadith, do the hadith have an authority that is in effect greater than that of the Qur'an itself, because the Qur'an is viewed through the lens of a particular approach to hadith? If Muslims didn't have different views of hadith and different collections of hadith, would they be have fewer disagreements among themselves, or consider their disagreements of less importance? Or do the hadith help Muslims to agree among themselves? Without hadith, would there be more disagreement among Muslims?

 

[TashaN]

Hi again my sister, Djamila.

I'm so glad that you came back to discuss this with me to enlighten each other as brothers and sisters in islam.

Just few simple questions my sister ...

- Does the Quran explain how to pray to God in details or he just ordered us to just pray?

- Does the Quran explain how much we must pay for Zakat?

- Does the Quran explain how to fast, who can fast and what you have to do if you can't fast, when to fast excatly, how can we know when the month comes for fasting, etc?

- Does the Quran explain in details how to do hajj?

All these questions are ONLY about 4 of the 5 pillars of islam and the most important thing in any muslim's life and yet there are so much to come if you want to know more.

For example, about praying, prophet Mohammed said in the meaning of the hadith (not exact one): Pray as you saw me praying.

How we will know for sure how did prophet Mohammed pray excatly?

You have to know that any false hadith or anything which contradict with Quran is definitely not acceptable at all and all muslims know that well.

We don't say that the Quran is incomplete (God forbid) but if all the rules of islam must be included in the Quran we will have to have so many Qurans with thousands of pages.

Therefore, Quran is a miracle in itself and at the same time it makes clear of many things whether in the past, present or the future but remember, the quran give orders and laws in general and prophet Mohammed was the one to show us how to apply this rule or that in details in our daily life as God commanded him.

After all, you can believe in what you think is right for you my sister but i thought muslims discuss with evidence and they correct each other, but not to say this is what i think of and i'm free to believe in what i want and think of verses the way i want or the way i understand with no accurate evidence to show.

All the best for you my sister and i pray that you earn all the wisdom to realise the truth wherever you find it.

 

[Djamila]

So you believe the Koran isn't complete, then. Well, I don't - because it said it is complete. Just because the hadiths invent elaborate rituals that, in some cases, do not appear to contradict the Koran doesn't mean they are authentic or necessary.

How should we know that the hadiths describe how Muhammed actually prayed? Why should we even care whether they do or not? The Koran is complele, it says so itself. If it doesn't specify a way to pray, if the word of God doesn't give us that information, then I guess it's not all that important how we pray.

 

[TashaN]

So you believe the Koran isn't complete, then. Well, I don't - because it said it is complete.

My dear sister, i'm not here to argue or to debate with you but to discuss with you only. So, please don't put words in my mouth or assume things which i havn't said. I'll really aperciate it.

Just because the hadiths invent elaborate rituals that, in some cases, do not appear to contradict the Koran doesn't mean they are authentic or necessary.

I agree with you. That's why any false hadith even if it didn't contradict with Quran will not be included. I'll post later on how the collection of hadith happened so soon (God willing).

How should we know that the hadiths describe how Muhammed actually prayed? Why should we even care whether they do or not?

From where then we will know how to pray?

The Koran is complele, it says so itself. If it doesn't specify a way to pray, if the word of God doesn't give us that information, then I guess it's not all that important how we pray.

So you mean each one of us can pray in his/her own way?

 

[Djamila]

I'm not putting words in your mouth, The Truth. The Koran says it is complete, you say it doesn't tell us how to pray - but insist this is something we have to know.

Therefore... ? How is it possible for you to say you believe the Koran is complete? I don't understand your logic?

 

[TashaN]

I'm not putting words in your mouth, The Truth. The Koran says it is complete, you say it doesn't tell us how to pray - but insist this is something we have to know.

Therefore... ? How is it possible for you to say you believe the Koran is complete? I don't understand your logic?

I mean, the relationship is like the lecturer and the tutor.

God instruct us of everything and prophet Mohammed teach us in details how to do it.

We have it all in Quran but there are alot of things in Muslims life which you can't find in the Quran because it's impossible to find everyhting in the so so so details there. It's impossible to say that God is dealing with our life case by case and person by person but it's a general ruling for all then prophet Mohammed teach us how to practice it in details. Got what i mean now?

 

[Djamila]

I get what you mean, yes - I just fail to see how that is Islam.

 

[TashaN]

I get what you mean, yes - I just fail to see how that is Islam.

All islam rituals since 1400 years until now, and the details of practicing, developing of the islamic Fiqh, you believe all of it is in Quran and all can get it from there and do it directly?

Quran is there for general rules then we can expand from there and on, so we can go on with time and the changing which happen in our life and the world as a whole through the hadiths and through the interpetaions of the Quran, Hadith and Fiqh scholars.

 

[Djamila]

"Quran is there for general rules then we can expand from there and on"

But the Koran says it is complete, it even specifically says "nothing was left out of this book". That's a deal-breaker for me when it comes to hadiths. Who the hell are we to say we need more from God than what he gave us? And who the hell are these men, who wrote these hadiths, to say their words came from God, or from watching the prophet (when he lived, often centuries, before these men?).

 

[TashaN]

But the Koran says it is complete, it even specifically says "nothing was left out of this book". That's a deal-breaker for me when it comes to hadiths. Who the hell are we to say we need more from God than what he gave us?

You are totaly right my sister. we have to listen to what God says therefore, God himself said:

[17] It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it:

[18] But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):

[19] Nay more, it is for Us to explain it (and make it clear): (Surah 75:17-19)

1- God promised to save Quran and collect it.
2- He ordered us to follow it.
3- God promised that he will explain it for us. Explain what? explain the Quran.

- Who will be in charge of explaining the Quran?
prophet Mohammed.

How we will be able to know how did prophet Mohammed explained it?
Through his teaching in hadiths.

What will happen if we didn't follow what God himself says?
We will astray from the right bath of God and each one of us will explain the Quran and interpret the Quran in his way.

Imagine that each of us has his/her own interpetation of the Quran, then each one of us for instance have alot of children, and each one of thos children has his/her own interpetation of the Quran, then each one of them teach his kids a different interpetation of the Quran. If you think this is the way how it should be, and each one of us just have to read and interpret as he/she please, then say bye to the religion my sister. If this was the case, so we wouldn't have the chance to be muslims "God forbid".

And who the hell are these men, who wrote these hadiths, to say their words came from God,

Please my sister, you are confusing yourself in here. We are not talking about the bible. You can use this statment there to talk about those who claim to be inspired by God to write his words bla bla. Be aware my siste to mix up things because this is so dangerous in islam. No muslim ever claimed that God is inspiring him to write in behave of him "God forbid".

or from watching the prophet (when he lived, often centuries, before these men?).

I guess you still talking about the bible. We are talking about the Quran my sister.

You have to know that those whom you call by "who the hell are these men", God said about them:

[100] The vanguard (of Islam), the first of those who forsook (their homes)"almohajeroon" and of those who gave them aid "al-ansar", and (also) those who follow them in (all) good deeds, well-pleased is Allah with them "Radhi Allahu Anhum" , as are they with Him: for them Hath He prepared Gardens under which rivers flow, to dwell therein forever: that is the supreme Felicity. (Surah 9)

The words in black between " ... " is mine. We read the words in red in arabic as Radhi Allahu Anhum in the Quran.

Those men collected the Quran for you. Prophet Mohammed died and there was no such a book called the Quran "written" but those faithful men after the death of prophet Mohammed, those whom God said they will go to heaven even before they die. 10 persons God said that they will go to heaven even before they die. Those people decided to collect the Quran in a book after it was only memorized.

- Who saved the Quran?
God saved the Quran.

- Who did collect the Quran in a written book called "Quran"?
Those men whom you mentioned.

They didn't came after centuries but they witnessed every single verse revealed to prophet Mohammed and all his instructuions to them in how to apply Quran in details in their daily life. Thos men livd with prophet Mohammed and God talked about them in Quran. Enough.

They didn't want to write the hadith in books for many reasons and i have an entire book in my room about it. Some reasons are because people just entered to islam from paganism. They were instructed to memorize the first chapter in Quran "Al-Fatiha" when they enter to islam, then when they want to ask about somthing, then the must ask: those who possess the Message.

[7] Before thee, also, the messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message. (Surah 21:7)

But how those who possess the Message will explain for me?
First of all they will try to find it from Quran, then if they didn't find the details so they take from what prophet Mohammed EXPLAINED, then if they didn't find so after that there are several ways and it's not our topic to talks about it now.

So, as you can see, not all the muslims have to memorize the whole Quran nor the whole hadith but those who possess the Message must be aware of all details in the islamic law.

I guess now you know who are those and if you know not, then i'll post for you all their names in here but i guess you know them well, and in the head of them, the Sahabat, Abubaker Al-Sadeeq, Omar bin Al-khatab, etc.

I'm just wondering, where you get your knowledge from?

The scholars in Bosnia agree in what you are saying or it's just your own opnion?

Because no body ever claim that he/she know more than the specialists in religion studies in islam.

Waiting for your answer.

Thank you.