Islam : The LARGEST 'practiced' faith of the world?

[FearGod]

First scenerio: Adoption. There are TONS of children who are rotated around in the system because they are never adopted. Too many babies without parents. Our own prophet was an orphan. Before forcing your own wife to be considered "second best" by marrying a fertile woman (doesnt matter if you dont see it that way, she probably will), adopt babies who have no parents.

Second case: It is forbidden to marry a second wife just for sexual purposes so if all the husband wants is sex, tough luck. In my honest opinion, if the wife is too sick to be a wife at all and gives FULL CONSENT to the marrying if the second wife, then it is up to the family. The choice rests in the first wife's hands, though. She was the first wife. Shes the one who needs to be ok with it. Polygamy needs to be something that is MUTUALLY 150% agreed upon (and honestly, I know very few women who are open to sharing their husbands. Husbands, put yourselves in our shoes and imagine if you'd share your wife with another man) and if they give complete consent, then whatever.

I dont judge what other couples do in their own homes. If someone wants to have 100 wives and all 100 of those women are up for it, then more power to you. My issue is when men assume it's their duty and their right to take on as many as four wives without any kind of consideration for the wife that they already have. I am a jealous woman. I'd have HUGE issues if I had to share my husband. I'd honestly rather be divorced than ever share my husband. Muslim men are jealous men and are protective of their wives but do they assume that women arent? That we lack somehow in protectiveness? Before taking on another wife, imagine if your wife asked if she could take on another husband. Some men dont like to put this into perspective.

At the end of the day, polygamy is dangerous Islamically and, in my opinion, is outdated and the punishment for not treating all wives the same is too great to be messed with. As they say in Pakistan: a man with two wives is like a man with his feet in two boats.

if god allowed polygamy that won't mean that i have to marry 4,of course not,i am married and have enough money and i am allowed to marry 4,but i never think to do so.

God allowed divorce,should i divorce because god allowed it for me and her.
God knows better what is good for us,sometimes there is no solution between both except divorce,then that is for specific cases,similar to polygamy.

One in three women prefer spending time with girlfriends than their husbands... and get more glammed up for them too

Read more: 1 in 3 women prefer spending time with girlfriends than their husbands | Mail Online

 

[InvestigateTruth]

God allowed divorce,should i divorce because god allowed it for me and her.
God knows better what is good for us,sometimes there is no solution between both except divorce,then that is for specific cases,similar to polygamy.

Sorry to jump in.
But here you are using your judgment when and where you can had more than 1 wife.
So, let's say, there is a person currently living in our time, who have 4 wives.
Do you think he would be questioned for this by God, or it is fine.
My question is, In your openion, why did even God revealed laws, if we use our judgement which laws to use or not?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

i do agree that they can't be treated equally at least in means of feelings,but let me imagining some scenarios.

A man was married to one woman and after 10 years of marriage she wasn't ever pregnant,he want children that he suffer every day thinking about children,what best choice,through her away such as divorcing or keep her with love and marry another woman so he can achieve his dream of having children,some men may accept to live with a sterile woman for ever without any complaint,but i think there should be some will suffer without children.

Another case,his woman was sick and she won't be able to have normal sex relationship with her husband,what best choice do you think,through her away such as divorcing or marry another one but still keep an eye on his first wife with full respect.

So, what if the man is sick and is not able to have a child or have normal sex. Under this situation, according to Quran, is the woman allowed to have 2 husbands?

 

[paarsurrey]

So, what if the man is sick and is not able to have a child or have normal sex. Under this situation, according to Quran, is the woman allowed to have 2 husbands?

She could get divorce from his husband and could marry with another man.
These are not, as I said, the basic tenets of Quran/Islam; here Quran/Islam solved social problems.
Women at that time were depended on men economically; so if a man divorced her she could not live normally and independently.

In comparative religions one's main focus should be on the basic tenets of the religions; I think one would agree with me.

 

[PMderry]

One in three women prefer spending time with girlfriends than their husbands... and get more glammed up for them too

Read more: 1 in 3 women prefer spending time with girlfriends than their husbands | Mail Online

Thats not a big statistic. Only 33% of women enjoy being with other women over their own husbands. Wanna know the funny thing? If that article asked those women "now, would you hang out with those friends if they were having a sexual relationship with your husband?" that number would drop to the ground. Guaranteed MOST women are not ok sharing their husband with other women.

If they are, then I dont understand their minds. Thats fine if they are ok with it, more power to them, but I dont understand that. My mind doenst work that way.

She could get divorce from his husband and could marry with another man.
These are not, as I said, the basic tenets of Quran/Islam; here Quran/Islam solved social problems.
Women at that time were depended on men economically; so if a man divorced her she could not live normally and independently.

In comparative religions one's main focus should be on the basic tenets of the religions; I think one would agree with me.

Yes, I agree with you.

At the end of the day, the family can do whatever the family wants to do. If a woman is ok with sharing her husband with other women, fine. It's not a requirement, it's not something anyone HAS to do, and in my opinion, should not be done except for very special circumstances.

 

[FearGod]

She could get divorce from his husband and could marry with another man.
These are not, as I said, the basic tenets of Quran/Islam; here Quran/Islam solved social problems.
Women at that time were depended on men economically; so if a man divorced her she could not live normally and independently.

In comparative religions one's main focus should be on the basic tenets of the religions; I think one would agree with me.

exactly,she is allowed to ask for divorce if she wanted.

i do agree with you that such laws aren't the basic tenets for any religion,but actaully people at that times were allowed to marry without limits and women didn't have any rights at all even men before islam used to kill the new born female and their wives can do nothing to prevent them of doing so,the religion have turn such community from deep ignorance to the golden ages of the islamic empire.

 

[PMderry]

exactly,she is allowed to ask for divorce if she wanted.

i do agree with you that such laws aren't the basic tenets for any religion,but actaully people at that times were allowed to marry without limits and women didn't have any rights at all even men before islam used to kill the new born female and their wives can do nothing to prevent them of doing so,the religion have turn such community from deep ignorance to the golden ages of the islamic empire.

Im not arguing about polygamy's place 1400 years ago. Im concerned with polygamy's place in 2012. In 2012, we have no need for it anymore since women dont rely on their husbands the same way that they used to (unless they live in oppressive countries and, again, in that case, polygamy isnt what they need. They need a reformed law system.) A woman can get a divorce and support herself in 2012. Therefore, polygamy isn't as needed anymore.

This whole spinoff conversation is exactly what I meant when we need to look at the background information behind the Qur'an in order to see how to apply it to 2012. We don't live in Muhammad's time. Things that worked for Arabs 1400 years ago do not work for Arabs today. Our world is constantly changing and evolving and we cannot stop time and live in the stone age anymore. By placing the Qur'an in the context of the past, we can see how it can apply to our world today.

 

[paarsurrey]

Im not arguing about polygamy's place 1400 years ago. Im concerned with polygamy's place in 2012. In 2012, we have no need for it anymore since women dont rely on their husbands the same way that they used to (unless they live in oppressive countries and, again, in that case, polygamy isnt what they need. They need a reformed law system.) A woman can get a divorce and support herself in 2012. Therefore, polygamy isn't as needed anymore.

This whole spinoff conversation is exactly what I meant when we need to look at the background information behind the Qur'an in order to see how to apply it to 2012. We don't live in Muhammad's time. Things that worked for Arabs 1400 years ago do not work for Arabs today. Our world is constantly changing and evolving and we cannot stop time and live in the stone age anymore. By placing the Qur'an in the context of the past, we can see how it can apply to our world today.

Our era is also Muhammad's era; along-with the basic tenets, social problems need to be resolved as well. If we look the verses of the Quran with the verses in the context, some preceding and some following; one would see the clues to the solution.

Most of such matters are now dealt with by the states secularly; so the emphasis should be on the basic tenets of the religions.

 

[PMderry]

Our era is also Muhammad's era; along-with the basic tenets, social problems need to be resolved as well. If we look the verses of the Quran with the verses in the context, some preceding and some following; one would see the clues to the solution.

Most of such matters are now dealt with by the states secularly; so the emphasis should be on the basic tenets of the religions.

Yes. thats what ive been saying this whole time.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

She could get divorce from his husband and could marry with another man.
These are not, as I said, the basic tenets of Quran/Islam; here Quran/Islam solved social problems.
Women at that time were depended on men economically; so if a man divorced her she could not live normally and independently.

In comparative religions one's main focus should be on the basic tenets of the religions; I think one would agree with me.

Yes I agree with you personally, but that's not the point.
Do you think that the Moslem Scholars and Leaders agree with you too? You might be aware that, ususally Moslems listen to the openions of the Scholars and Leaders.
But the discussion was about to justify that even in today's society, the rule that allows having upto 4 wives, according to some Moslems can still be used. And still there are some people that believe, it can still be applicable. Moreover, according to the stablished Islamic Traditions, the Laws of Islam (Shria) is not to be changed forever. Even if Mahdi and Christ return, they are not allowed to make even slight changes to them. So, theoligically, how would you reconcile these issues?

 

[PMderry]

Yes I agree with you personally, but that's not the point.
Do you think that the Moslem Scholars and Leaders agree with you too? You might be aware that, ususally Moslems listen to the openions of the Scholars and Leaders.
But the discussion was about to justify that even in today's society, the rule that allows having upto 4 wives, according to some Moslems can still be used. And still there are some people that believe, it can still be applicable. Moreover, according to the stablished Islamic Traditions, the Laws of Islam (Shria) is not to be changed forever. Even if Mahdi and Christ return, they are not allowed to make even slight changes to them. So, theoligically, how would you reconcile these issues?

Its not a question of changing them. These rules are fixed and allowed forever. The trick is figuring out when you should use then, and when yuo dont need to.

Having up to 4 wives is allowed. Forever. And while you can say "yes, I want 4 wives" you also have the freedom to take only 1. The Qur'an states that having 1 wife is better anyway since, if you take more than 1, you have to treat all wives equally. This means emotionally, materialistically, financially, etc. In fact, the punishment for not treating all wives equally is extremely gruesome (from what I remember reading in hadiths, I think it was twisted limbs in the afterlife for the husband).

There is a difference between a commandment and an allowance. Polygamy is an allowance. It had a purpose, it may still have a purpose in some areas, but it is not required. Since it is not required, Muslims are free to say "you know what? Becuase of the state of hte world right now, I dont want to take on more than one wife" and that is their absolute right to say that.

Yes, there are some Muslims who believe it's their duty to have 4 wives. There are some men who marry girls 3 times younger than them. There are some girls who have no choice who to marry. These people exist but these people twist and spin the Qur'an and hadiths to their own satisfaction. Did Prophet marry a girl a lot younger than him? Yes he did, but he had a reason that was appropriate for the time in which he lived. Does this mean we need to repeat it in 2012? Absolutely not. This is what I mean when I say that applying Qur'an to the past adn seeing the REASON for why things are allowed then and why Muslims did what they did then is the way that we can better use our religion for the modern age. In 2012, little girls shouldnt be married to old men. In 2012, having 4 wives when you live in the USA shouldnt be practiced (and legally, it isnt anyway), etc. These things are allowances depending on the situation and the time. NOT timeless commandments. It is up to us to decide when allowances should be used and when they dont apply to us.

 

[FearGod]

Yes I agree with you personally, but that's not the point.
Do you think that the Moslem Scholars and Leaders agree with you too? You might be aware that, ususally Moslems listen to the openions of the Scholars and Leaders.
But the discussion was about to justify that even in today's society, the rule that allows having upto 4 wives, according to some Moslems can still be used. And still there are some people that believe, it can still be applicable. Moreover, according to the stablished Islamic Traditions, the Laws of Islam (Shria) is not to be changed forever. Even if Mahdi and Christ return, they are not allowed to make even slight changes to them. So, theoligically, how would you reconcile these issues?

What is the relation between the laws and social issues.

Laws such as not to commit adultery or drinking wines and using drugs,eating pork ...etc,yes those laws have never ever been changed.

i guess you didn't understand paarsurrey point of view

 

[FearGod]

Its not a question of changing them. These rules are fixed and allowed forever. The trick is figuring out when you should use then, and when yuo dont need to.

Having up to 4 wives is allowed. Forever. And while you can say "yes, I want 4 wives" you also have the freedom to take only 1. The Qur'an states that having 1 wife is better anyway since, if you take more than 1, you have to treat all wives equally. This means emotionally, materialistically, financially, etc. In fact, the punishment for not treating all wives equally is extremely gruesome (from what I remember reading in hadiths, I think it was twisted limbs in the afterlife for the husband).

There is a difference between a commandment and an allowance. Polygamy is an allowance. It had a purpose, it may still have a purpose in some areas, but it is not required. Since it is not required, Muslims are free to say "you know what? Becuase of the state of hte world right now, I dont want to take on more than one wife" and that is their absolute right to say that.

Yes, there are some Muslims who believe it's their duty to have 4 wives. There are some men who marry girls 3 times younger than them. There are some girls who have no choice who to marry. These people exist but these people twist and spin the Qur'an and hadiths to their own satisfaction. Did Prophet marry a girl a lot younger than him? Yes he did, but he had a reason that was appropriate for the time in which he lived. Does this mean we need to repeat it in 2012? Absolutely not. This is what I mean when I say that applying Qur'an to the past adn seeing the REASON for why things are allowed then and why Muslims did what they did then is the way that we can better use our religion for the modern age. In 2012, little girls shouldnt be married to old men. In 2012, having 4 wives when you live in the USA shouldnt be practiced (and legally, it isnt anyway), etc. These things are allowances depending on the situation and the time. NOT timeless commandments. It is up to us to decide when allowances should be used and when they dont apply to us.

i do agree with you,god show it clear that man will not be fair in treating his wives if more than one which make it clear that better to be with one and talking about nowadays it is even hard to be fair with 2 then how if 4

 

[Shia Islam]

Well hi ,



What is your say on this?

Nice topic...
influence is a different topic as some members noted

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Its not a question of changing them. These rules are fixed and allowed forever. The trick is figuring out when you should use then, and when yuo dont need to.

Having up to 4 wives is allowed. Forever. And while you can say "yes, I want 4 wives" you also have the freedom to take only 1. The Qur'an states that having 1 wife is better anyway since, if you take more than 1, you have to treat all wives equally. This means emotionally, materialistically, financially, etc. In fact, the punishment for not treating all wives equally is extremely gruesome (from what I remember reading in hadiths, I think it was twisted limbs in the afterlife for the husband).

There is a difference between a commandment and an allowance. Polygamy is an allowance. It had a purpose, it may still have a purpose in some areas, but it is not required. Since it is not required, Muslims are free to say "you know what? Becuase of the state of hte world right now, I dont want to take on more than one wife" and that is their absolute right to say that.

Yes, there are some Muslims who believe it's their duty to have 4 wives. There are some men who marry girls 3 times younger than them. There are some girls who have no choice who to marry. These people exist but these people twist and spin the Qur'an and hadiths to their own satisfaction. Did Prophet marry a girl a lot younger than him? Yes he did, but he had a reason that was appropriate for the time in which he lived. Does this mean we need to repeat it in 2012? Absolutely not. This is what I mean when I say that applying Qur'an to the past adn seeing the REASON for why things are allowed then and why Muslims did what they did then is the way that we can better use our religion for the modern age. In 2012, little girls shouldnt be married to old men. In 2012, having 4 wives when you live in the USA shouldnt be practiced (and legally, it isnt anyway), etc. These things are allowances depending on the situation and the time. NOT timeless commandments. It is up to us to decide when allowances should be used and when they dont apply to us.

Ok, So, polygamy is an allowance. do you believe that is there anywhere on the earth in this Age that we live, that it is ok to use polygamy?
Regarding marrying a girl much younger, I agree with you personally. But there are many Muslims, that believe that every single movement of Prophet Muhammad, is the way of living of a Muslim. Including walking and sitting. So, your opinion like I said, I can understand your approach, but, I don't really think that all Muslims agree with your approach. So, what I am saying is that, Quran allows 4 wives. So, you are saying that it is up to the Judgment of a Moslem when to use it. The problem is that, the Judgment of regular human beings, is generally fallible, and everyone according to His/her understanding and His/her own benefit, may decide use it or not.
Like, it seemed to me, our friend FearGod, thought it is ok to have two wives, if the wife cannot have a child and the man wants child badly. But It seemed if we change the situation around, a woman can have two husbands?


Moreover, the Polygamy is just an example, but many other laws, such as punishment laws, such as the punishment of thief, which is cutting hands, or other laws such as two women Witness equals one Man as a witness, and many other ones, are not just allowance, but commandments and a guidance to be followed, are they not?

 

[FearGod]

Ok, So, polygamy is an allowance. do you believe that is there anywhere on the earth in this Age that we live, that it is ok to use polygamy?
Regarding marrying a girl much younger, I agree with you personally. But there are many Muslims, that believe that every single movement of Prophet Muhammad, is the way of living of a Muslim. Including walking and sitting. So, your opinion like I said, I can understand your approach, but, I don't really think that all Muslims agree with your approach. So, what I am saying is that, Quran allows 4 wives. So, you are saying that it is up to the Judgment of a Moslem when to use it. The problem is that, the Judgment of regular human beings, is generally fallible, and everyone according to His/her understanding and His/her own benefit, may decide use it or not.
Like, it seemed to me, our friend FearGod, thought it is ok to have two wives, if the wife cannot have a child and the man wants child. But It seemed if we change the situation around, a woman can have two husbands?


Moreover, the Polygamy is just an example, but many other laws, such as punishment laws, such as the punishment of thief, which is cutting hands, or other laws such as two women Witness equals one Man as a witness, and many other ones, are not just allowance, but commandments and a guidance to be followed, are they not?

i have a question to you,as bahii,do you believe that Mohammed pbuh is a messenger of god and that the quran is god's words.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What is the relation between the laws and social issues.

Laws such as not to commit adultery or drinking wines and using drugs,eating pork ...etc,yes those laws have never ever been changed.

i guess you didn't understand paarsurrey point of view

Well, I agree regarding not commiting adultry and not drinking wine, or stealing. But do you think the physical punishments that are ordained for these, are the best way?
For example, why cutting a thief hand, instead of to force him to work hard to learn a good lesson? Why by cutting his hand, making him never to be able to work again? What if at some point he becomes a good human and wants to work and serve the society. Why not just imprison him?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

i have a question to you,as bahii,do you believe that Mohammed pbuh is a messenger of god and that the quran is god's words.

Yes, offcourse I do.

 

[England my lionheart]

Quote teeta01

It has become the largest practiced global faith of the planet...

What is your say on this?[/quote]

Even if were true it doesn't seem to have benefited it's followers very much,seems to me its made things worse if anything,poverty ignorance and intollerance seem to be the products churned out and not only by Islam IMO.

Islam may have over a billion followers but would you consider a Salafi the same as an Alawite,you only need to check out Syria for the answer,there are severe problems over all of what was once the Ummah so the the numbers boast is meaningless unless they are all moving in the same direction,just my opinion though.

 

[Romuldo]

If indeed these people are following the True Islam, which they believe is the Best and the Last revelation, why then so much issues? Why they are not in peace and unity? Why they have poverty issues? Why in terms of science and Technology they are lower than the Western Countries? Shouldn't practicing Islam, have the Best Fruits? Why we don't see the Good Fruits?

Yes, I'm agree with your statement..They are not really understand the meaning of Ukhwah..the Muslim themselves mirrored the Islam, of course...But actually most of the Muslim didnt realised about that..Its up to us, as Muslim, to have honest discourse among ourselves and chart a new way forward in ever-changing modern landscapes..