Islam: Religion of Peace or Religion for War?

[Marsh]

This topic, I am sure has come up before, though not during my active time here, and I hope the old timers don't mind if we address it once again. It seems to be a subject of discussion in one of the threads on atheism and I thought perhaps we should have a thread dedicated to the subject.

I have read Karen Armstrong on Islam, and her stance is very positive toward the faith, but there is much she simply does not mention. My understanding is that the Arabs of Mohammad's time were, many of them, employed in caravan raiding, and this was Mohammad's occupation as well: before and after he became the Prophet. Also, the career of the Prophet seems to be one of nearly continuous warfare. I've not read the whole Koran, but I have read Why I Am Not A Muslim, by Ibn Warraq, and he presents a picture of Islam that is a threat to the peace and general well being of the world. Even as I write the news is reporting on yet another Islamic terror attack in England.

No one denies that the Koran has some very violent episodes, the question I pose is, can Islam get past the violence and become a faith that lives in peace around the world with other faiths, and even with atheism? As an atheist, I wouldn't risk ever travelling to an Islamic country. What happens if Islam attains a dominant position in the West? I fear that even here life would reach a tipping point and we could descend into ever escalating violence. Just a few weeks ago in Nova Scotia, Canada, two young boys of very recent Muslim immigrants held a grade three girl on the ground in the school yard, chain around her neck, choking her, and shouting "Muslims will rule the world!" Not a very propitious beginning for refugees recently welcomed into the country and, I fear, a warning of things yet to come.

 

[Fingy]

can Islam get past the violence and become a faith that lives in peace around the world with other faiths, and even with atheism?

Islam may have a chance for real progress if there is a reformation. Islam badly needs a Martin Luther to "de-fang" and reform the radicals. But I am a pessimist. Any potential Muslim theologian who wants to pursue liberal reforms will end up in prison or worse. The current Islamic atmosphere is fetid and intolerant. Any dissident voices are squelched immediately.

 

[Jabar]

I believe it is a religion of peace.

Qur'an says if you kill one innocent person, it is as though you have killed the whole of humanity.
If you save one person, it is as though you have saved the whole of humanity.

Killing, i believe, is the second worst sin in Islam.

 

[Laika]

This topic, I am sure has come up before, though not during my active time here, and I hope the old timers don't mind if we address it once again. It seems to be a subject of discussion in one of the threads on atheism and I thought perhaps we should have a thread dedicated to the subject.

I have read Karen Armstrong on Islam, and her stance is very positive toward the faith, but there is much she simply does not mention. My understanding is that the Arabs of Mohammad's time were, many of them, employed in caravan raiding, and this was Mohammad's occupation as well: before and after he became the Prophet. Also, the career of the Prophet seems to be one of nearly continuous warfare. I've not read the whole Koran, but I have read Why I Am Not A Muslim, by Ibn Warraq, and he presents a picture of Islam that is a threat to the peace and general well being of the world. Even as I write the news is reporting on yet another Islamic terror attack in England.

No one denies that the Koran has some very violent episodes, the question I pose is, can Islam get past the violence and become a faith that lives in peace around the world with other faiths, and even with atheism? As an atheist, I wouldn't risk ever travelling to an Islamic country. What happens if Islam attains a dominant position in the West? I fear that even here life would reach a tipping point and we could descend into ever escalating violence. Just a few weeks ago in Nova Scotia, Canada, two young boys of very recent Muslim immigrants held a grade three girl on the ground in the school yard, chain around her neck, choking her, and shouting "Muslims will rule the world!" Not a very propitious beginning for refugees recently welcomed into the country and, I fear, a warning of things yet to come.

I think of Islam as a product of human beings, so it is therefore both a religion of war and peace as it depends on the people. There is no god involved so the authority of the Qur'an is only the authority which it invested in it by men to uphold a pattern of religious organisation and way of life. The Qu'ran- like any holy book- depends on how it is interpreted and certain phrases may become relevant at one time to one group and then simply be forgotten at another time. That would seem to be true of all religions and ideologies.
It's wrong to characterise any system as intriniscally good or evil, because in the end they are all products of our humanity whatever we may think of them. I therefore don't believe that Muslims are any more violent than anyone else. I'm not sure how long it would take the Islam world to become more secular (and there is a legitimate question as to whether Muslims would want that and if that is simply imposing western values on them) but I'm willing to hope that they can learn from us and we can learn from them. Western cultural identity is very much derived from and implicitly "Christianised" so we have to change and accept aspects of Muslims culture as well as vice versa to live side by side inorder to be part of the same cultural and moral landscape. its will be an ongoing dialogue and evolution as these two cultures become part of one global culture.

 

[Augustus]

Islam badly needs a Martin Luther to "de-fang" and reform the radicals.

Martin Luther really wasn't a particularly 'moderate' character though.

Not that you can compare them exactly due to the differences between the 2 religions, but the nearest thing to a reformation was the appearance of the Salafi movement. This rejected the clerical establishment as often having innovated and moved away from the 'true' teachings based on scripture. It is still significantly different from the reformation though.

More humanistic forms of Islam already exist, it's not like they need to be created. Unfortunately, the more extreme versions are a lot better funded, mostly by the Saudis.

Also there is a current of anti-establishment feeling all over the world due to the failures of government to tackle inequality and the likes. For many Muslims, Islamism is the alternative, just like many Europeans were pro-communist from the 40s to the 80s.

What happens if Islam attains a dominant position in the West?

It won't any time in the next 100 years and speculating beyond that is is somewhat pointless.

It's not really anything to worry about.

 

[Marsh]

I believe it is a religion of peace.

Qur'an says if you kill one innocent person, it is as though you have killed the whole of humanity.
If you save one person, it is as though you have saved the whole of humanity.

Killing, i believe, is the second worst sin in Islam.

Yet, there is a lot of killing in the Koran, and all of it at the behest of the Prophet. Oh, by the way, what is the worst sin according to Islam?

Jabar, I am curious, what is your opinion of atheists? In many Islamic countries atheists are often jailed or even frequently murdered. It is unsafe to admit being an atheist in any Muslim country. Do you not think the same level of violence against atheists would become common place in the West if ever Muslims reached a majority position?

 

[Quintessence]

In spite of seeing threads like this ad nauseum on these forums, I still can't quite figure out why a false dichotomy is so often insisted upon, nor why humanity as a whole is not being fingered. The more appropriate framing IMHO is "Humans: animal of peace and animal of war."

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In spite of seeing threads like this ad nauseum on these forums, I still can't quite figure out why a false dichotomy is so often insisted upon, nor why humanity as a whole is not being fingered.

Really? I thought it was obvious: if Islam is merely a reflection of humanity, then Islam is merely human in origin, its claims of special revelation are false, and therefore the religion itself is false as well.

Another way of looking at the question of the thread is to ask whether Muslims who engage in war are being poor Muslims by not following God's message, or are being good Muslims by being faithful to the message of a warlike God.

Your questions seem to reject the notion that the God of Islam is real and can be followed. While I'm inclined to agree, it's beside the point when we're trying to figure out if the idea of a real God can be reconciled with the real-world practice of Muslims.

Yes, similar questions can be asked for other religions.

 

[DawudTalut]

This topic, I am sure has come up before, though not during my active time here, and I hope the old timers don't mind if we address it once again. It seems to be a subject of discussion in one of the threads on atheism and I thought perhaps we should have a thread dedicated to the subject.

Peace be on you.
You are right, this topic directly or in related ways, has been here a lot.

I have read Karen Armstrong on Islam, and her stance is very positive toward the faith, but there is much she simply does not mention.

She did her best and stood with courage. You can read other aspects from good sources such as:
Books on right side at page https://www.alislam.org/holyprophet/ [ahmadiyya-Muslim resource]

My understanding is that the Arabs of Mohammad's time were, many of them, employed in caravan raiding, and this was Mohammad's occupation as well: before and after he became the Prophet.

Arabs before coming of Hazrat Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be on him) were involved in many weaknesses (though they possessed some very good morals). Such is time when God sends Messengers.
When Holy Prophet (sa) announced, God is One and pay human rights (as all Prophets announce), full scale resistance from barbaric Mafia leaders who would drag early Muslims on hot sand with stone on their chest to forces them to say God is not One. Many innocents were killed. This continued for 13 years.

How easily now writers does not mention this era!

When Muslims migrated to Madinah after 13 years, opponents kept coming to kill them there too.
Caravan thing was part of these actions:

"It was deemed necessary to block routes of Qurai****e caravans, since the route passed close to Medina, for several reasons:
o Caravans would incite tribes falling in their route, thus seeding hatred of Islam potentially endangering Medina.
o Caravans were always armed, in guise of trade they could pose safety threat to Medina city.
o Qurai****e economics was trade dependent, and the proceeds of the caravans were mostly used in buying mercenaries, arms and other war equipments, destined to be used against Muslims. It was wise to cut enemy‟s supply line, a move necessary to force Qurai****es to come to the negotiation table.
o The proceeds from caravans were spent in promoting intrigues and war preparations against Muslims."
Ref: Page 20 @ https://www.alislam.org/alnahl/an2010v21-2.pdf

Also, the career of the Prophet seems to be one of nearly continuous warfare. I've not read the whole Koran, but I have read Why I Am Not A Muslim, by Ibn Warraq, and he presents a picture of Islam that is a threat to the peace and general well being of the world.

Wars were imposed on Prophet (sa) and early Muslims.
Statistics shows Islam spread fast during peace years than war years.

Please note you could not read the real Islam first but you read an anti-source. It is one problem.

Even as I write the news is reporting on yet another Islamic terror attack in England.

Sad...It is so-called Islamic attack.

No one denies that the Koran has some very violent episodes,

But these are defence issues to deal with those who came to finish Islam with force.
Kindly read notes at
https://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/guide.htm?region=E1

the question I pose is, can Islam get past the violence and become a faith that lives in peace around the world with other faiths, and even with atheism?

Yes.
Only if divine solution is accepted. It has been foretold that in latter days, Muslim would get weaknesses at various levels.
Allah would send Promised Reformer to guide Muslims.
According to Ahmadiyya Muslims he has come and reminded that it era is not of fight back with force, this era is of self-corrections and Jihad with prayers and pen.

If this Voice will not be heard, what you wish in good intention will remain dream.

As an atheist, I wouldn't risk ever travelling to an Islamic country. What happens if Islam attains a dominant position in the West? I fear that even here life would reach a tipping point and we could descend into ever escalating violence. Just a few weeks ago in Nova Scotia, Canada, two young boys of very recent Muslim immigrants held a grade three girl on the ground in the school yard, chain around her neck, choking her, and shouting "Muslims will rule the world!" Not a very propitious beginning for refugees recently welcomed into the country and, I fear, a warning of things yet to come.

IMO if Muslims with current leaders and internal problems and ideas of wrong-Jihad will keep moving and thinking to capture the world, such problems as you mention will continue to surface and there will be many who will think like Mr.Trump......Muslims must think.
https://www.alislam.org/terrorism.html

Good wishes

 

[LuisDantas]

More humanistic forms of Islam already exist, it's not like they need to be created. Unfortunately, the more extreme versions are a lot better funded, mostly by the Saudis.

That is something to consider. How much of difference does such funding make, and why? How much of a difference is it supposed to make?

Also there is a current of anti-establishment feeling all over the world due to the failures of government to tackle inequality and the likes. For many Muslims, Islamism is the alternative, just like many Europeans were pro-communist from the 40s to the 80s.

Sounds like a dangerously rigged game to me. Islamism is ready to take all the credit for any positive changes, and summarily rejects any responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

It won't any time in the next 100 years and speculating beyond that is is somewhat pointless.

It's not really anything to worry about.

I just can't figure out how you could possibly come to such a conclusion.

Of course one should and arguably must worry about the spread a strongly proselistist monotheism. Particularly one such as Islam.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

The only religion of peace, that has actually been proven to have the least violence in the world with a very strict pacifist doctrine towards even microorganisms is JAINISM.
Buddhism, Vaishnavism, Taoism, Confucianism, etc though peaceful... Still not the most peaceful.
Islam is not the religion of peace, unless the definition means war.
Islam fascinated me once. Still I like wge n the call for prayer is rung in the evening with a nice voice, still, doctrine wise... Not peaceful but divisive.

 

[Augustus]

That is something to consider. How much of difference does such funding make, and why? How much of a difference is it supposed to make?

Very hard to quantify, but it has been going on for 30-40 years and is very well funded.

Saudi funded mosques, madrassa, scholarships for clerics/preachers, concerted attempts to get like minded ulema into high level positions in national organisations, funding for religious organisations and political parties.

It's not just Saudis though, Muslim Brotherhood has been doing similar, also South Asian Deobandi organisations, etc. The more fervent strains are better funded and much more active in their attempts to spread their form of the faith.

Think of it like how the Evangelical Protestant Churches are far more aggressive in their expansionism than the more moderate ones. Evangelical Protestantism is probably the fastest growing 'sect' of any religion which isn't very reassuring either.

Both of these are very active in the developing world.

Sounds like a dangerously rigged game to me. Islamism is ready to take all the credit for any positive changes, and summarily rejects any responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

Like communism, it probably needs to be given a chance to fail before it loses its allure. It can seem quite appealing compared to the corruption and cronyism in the developing world (and the developed).

Utopian solutions have proved appealing throughout human history, it is only when they are unable to provide what they promised that they are discredited. In opposition they can just keep promising the world and highlighting the obvious failings of the current system.

I just can't figure out how you could possibly come to such a conclusion.

Of course one should and arguably must worry about the spread a strongly proselistist monotheism. Particularly one such as Islam.

Demographics. Simple as that. Do the maths.

 

[LuisDantas]

I did. That is why I am worried.

 

[Augustus]

I did. That is why I am worried.

How did you get to a Muslim majority?

 

[Raahim]

Islam is a religion of peace as any other religion, terrorism knows no religion and everything terrorists do is far from teachings of Quran and they are mostly led by greed, money & power plus revenge (to USA & their allies).

 

[LuisDantas]

How did you get to a Muslim majority?

Excuse me? I just don't understand what you mean.

 

[Augustus]

Excuse me? I just don't understand what you mean.

This was the progression of that strand of discussion:

What happens if Islam attains a dominant position in the west? > That won't happen in 100 years.> Why? > Demographics. Do the maths. > I did. That's why I'm worried > How do you get to a position in which Islam is dominant in the west from the demographics?

 

[LuisDantas]

This was the progression of that strand of discussion:

What happens if Islam attains a dominant position in the west? > That won't happen in 100 years.> Why? > Demographics. Do the maths. > I did. That's why I'm worried > How do you get to a position in which Islam is dominant in the west from the demographics?

Pretty much so. Even were I convinced tha tthe 100 years number is accurate, that is still no reason not to worry. One does not worry about a blazing fire only when it grows out of control.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

This topic, I am sure has come up before, though not during my active time here, and I hope the old timers don't mind if we address it once again. It seems to be a subject of discussion in one of the threads on atheism and I thought perhaps we should have a thread dedicated to the subject.

It is both. There is a time for war and a time for peace.

 

[blue taylor]

I believe it is a religion of peace.

Qur'an says if you kill one innocent person, it is as though you have killed the whole of humanity.
If you save one person, it is as though you have saved the whole of humanity.

Killing, i believe, is the second worst sin in Islam.

Unfortunately there is a crap-load of muslims who do not believe that. Why are they wrong and you right?