kai
ragamuffin
the religion of peace
what is your opinion of this Ryan
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33950
what is your opinion of this Ryan
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33950
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Islam and Terrorism
- Thread starter Islam
- Start date
JerryL said:
4:89 They would love to see you deny the truth even as they have denied it, so that you should be like them. Do not, therefore, take them for your allies until they forsake the domain of evilAsad(4,108) for the sake of God; and if they revert to [open] enmity, seize them and slay them wherever you may find them. And do not take any of them for your ally or giver of succour.
Here is Abdullah Yusif, Ali Translation
4:89They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.
Now Jerry' Translation (not sure which one it is)
89. They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allāh. But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.
I showed three different versions of this verse just so people will understand exactly what the bolded portion meant because the translation Jerry used was a little vague with the part where it says "But if they turn away", so I want people to see what "turn away" meant.
Now that this is all cleared up, what's wrong with these verses?
4:89 They would love to see you deny the truth even as they have denied it, so that you should be like them. Do not, therefore, take them for your allies until they forsake the domain of evil for the sake of God; and if they revert to [open] enmity, seize them and slay them wherever you may find them. And do not take any of them for your ally or giver of succour.
4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therfore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (gurantees of) peace, the God hath opened no way for you (to fight against them).
So can you please tell me what's wrong with this verse? It's saying not to take as friends or protectors the ones who want nothing more than for you to disbelieve in Islam. He says things can be cool with you and those people if they are willing to do good, but if they turn renegades against you (if they fight/oppress you) then seize them and kill them and don't trust them. (Obviously)
Then it goes onto say in 4:90.. Do not fight the ones who are at peace with you and come to you with hearts restraining from not only fighting you, but fighting their own people. These people God is talking about right now are how majority of the world is right now, we are all cool with eachothers beliefs, and let eachother be. We discuss and learn from eachother. We have public schools and multi cultured sports teams and other groups. God says in this verse that he has opened no way for us to fight those people. So for everyone who thinks that Islam says to kill the non-believer wherever you find them, no matter what,even in Canada which is a peaceful and multi-cultured country that I should go find all the non-believers and kill them... YOU'RE WRONG. We are only to fight in defense... we are only to fight if we are being attacked for believing in what we believe in, and when that fighting starts for that reason.. God says to go all out until they surrender. .... which makes plenty of sense to me. What else are we supposed to do? Islam is a peaceful religion, and the verse above shows you that we are not aloud to fight those who do not want to fight us. It shows you that we can only fight against those who want to fight us, and who attack us for our beliefs... clear as day in 4:89 and 4:90. So I ask again... what's the problem?
Peace and Blessings
Ezzu
Ryan2065
Well-Known Member
Er, what of it? It is a prophecy that the antichrist will lead an army of 70,000 Jews all armed with swords and shields and then the antichrist will see Jesus (this is after Jesus has come back) and him and his army will flee. Then the Muslims are to kill the army of Jews and Jesus kills the antichrist...kai said:
Er, is there something wrong with this? What is this proving?
kai
ragamuffin
Ryan2065 said:
are you telling me that you dont see anything wrong with the prophecy of a major religion from mohammed himself that at the end of times that all non believers will die and the muslims will kill the jews"The Jews will not be able to hide behind anything on that day. Every time they try to hide behind a stone, a wall, a tree (except a boxthorn tree), or animal. Allah will make these things speak and they will say, ''O servant of Allah there is a Jew hiding behind me. come kill him.''
and you do not have alarm bells ringing
MdmSzdWhtGuy
Well-Known Member
Ryan,
Taking your figures on their face (and I have no particular reason to think that they are innacurate) we still have a substantial number of people advocating terrorism in the name of their religion. Frankly one person is to many, and in some rather large population groups there are roughly half of the populace who are advocating terrorist attacks on Western targets.
I think that those figures are plenty sufficient for me and others to be concerned.
B.
Taking your figures on their face (and I have no particular reason to think that they are innacurate) we still have a substantial number of people advocating terrorism in the name of their religion. Frankly one person is to many, and in some rather large population groups there are roughly half of the populace who are advocating terrorist attacks on Western targets.
I think that those figures are plenty sufficient for me and others to be concerned.
B.
Ryan2065
Well-Known Member
Er, we must not have read the same thing... The thing I read said that the Muslims would kill all of the Jews in the army of 70,000...kai said:
Is there not a huge difference between your assertion of "Killing all Jews" and the assertion of "killing the 70,000 jews who follow the antichrist" ?
Also the prophecy is that Jesus will come and kill all the non-believers... The Muslims have nothing to do with that =)
Ryan2065
Well-Known Member
I agree that the numbers show that there are too many people who support terrorism but they also show the % are on the decline overall. The only country surveyed whos % did not go down between 2004 and 2005 is Jordan.MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Though I might question the sampling ability of this survey when I see the numbers in Pakistan... 2002: 33%, 2004: 41%, 2005: 25%
They just can't make up their minds!
kai
ragamuffin
its a muslim prophecy!Ryan2065 said:
in all the posts that are brought up that mention killing and i would like to know just how many there are in the religion of peace you seem to be able to accept , i somehow find it rather disturbing and being of a peaceful nature i would decline to partake in this particular religion. but each to our own , andi just hope this version of jesus is not the real one
shema
Active Member
The Truth said:http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/QURAN/8/index.htm#59
Are you kidding me?
What a bad translation from an old anti-religion grabage website.
Use a translation which Muslims can accept but not some anti-islam websites.
Use this one. This page has the English translation of the meanings of The Qur'an by Saheeh International (Al-Muntada Al-Islami) , which is one of the best English translations so far:
[URL="http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=120"]http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=120[/URL]
Do You Speak Arabic?
Ryan2065
Well-Known Member
From what I understand the Bible's view of the end of the world is that all that follow christ are brought up to heaven and the ones left have 7 years of trials and chaos and all these bad things before they have the chance to get to heaven... The end of the world prophecys hardly ever have everyone joining hands and singing... Espically if the particular religion has a version of "heaven"...kai said:
So far the passages posted have all been about being defensive. If you were in charge of a religion would you suggest that they not fight back when someone was trying to kill them? As pointed out, the passages say to let the people go if they want peace. I don't think this is so bad...
maro
muslimah
about the suicide bomber issue,whose parents r proud of
And Although I don't agree with that, and our religion didn't tell us to do that either
but u know what ,
this suicide bomder may have one of his own brothers died infront of his eyes,
or even a parent who has been in prison for more than twenty years,
or his home knocked down over the heads of its people
this suiside bomber is a depressed person
depressed by those who came to his land, with no invitation, to steal his land and riches, and kick him and his people out, and treat them like rubbish in their own land
I still don't agree with suicidal operations
but also I think u can't judge such a person when u r living ur life safely and normally
u can't sit in the air condition to classify people as terrorists and peace lovers
*** some one has said that muslims don't go around looking for unbelievers to kill like like the quran has ordered them
The holy Quran never told us such a thing
and actualluy ur misunderstanding is not our fault
or may be it's our fault
but I promise that we will try to correct that as possible
let me explain to u, what the word ( Gihad) means to muslims
first, we have (gihad el nafs), which means to fight against ur weakness and tendency to do sins and disobey God
and this is what prophet Muhammed_ peace be upon him_has called (al Gihad Alakbar) " the biggest Gihad"
second,the word gihad refering to war and fighting the enemy
Actually, muslims r allowed to fight only for 2 reasons:
1)to defend their lands and families against invaders ( the real terrorists)
who neglect all morals of war and even neglect their humanity
and I hope u don't feel amazed by the word ( morals of war)
because Prophet Muhammed has told us not to kill women , children, old men,
and those who don't fight (like farmers), and even not to kill a tree
some one has mentioned the personal weapons against Israil citizens
and I really felt he is not living with us on Earth ( with all respect to him)
becoz killing the citizens, who have nothing to do with war, is the profission of the jews, and not us
haven't u heard of ( qana massacre) in lebanon
or isur media biased to that degree
anyway , this type of Gihad is called (Gihad al daf3)
2)there is another type of gihad, which we call ( gihad al Talab)or (al fotohat)
and its Aim is to show the real Islamto the whole world
because Prophet Muhammed _ peace be upon him_is the last prophet to be sent by allah, to guide people in their darkness
and that's whyit's our duty as muslims to spread his messege to the whole world
and Allah will ask us about that
especially nowadays,
when the media is biased most of the time
and the american movies show muslims either as terrorists,
or as dull people talking in a funny way ( especially Arabs)
*** ABOUT THE VERSES< THERE R THREE POINTS
**ALL THE VERSE OF QURAN TAKING ABOUT GIHAD (FIGHT) R UNDERSTOOD BY MUSLIMS WITHEN THE FRAME OF GIHAD I HAVE PREVIOUSLY EXPLAINED
**THE BAD TRANSLATION
**SOMETIMES U CAN"T MENTION A VERSE WITHOUT THE ONE PREVIOUS TO IT < OR COMING AFTER IT BECAUSE THIS WILL NOT MAKE THE MEANING CLEAR
AND I WILL EXPLAIN THE MISUNDERSTANDIND OF THE VERSE IN MY NEXT MESSEGE IN DETAILS
And Although I don't agree with that, and our religion didn't tell us to do that either
but u know what ,
this suicide bomder may have one of his own brothers died infront of his eyes,
or even a parent who has been in prison for more than twenty years,
or his home knocked down over the heads of its people
this suiside bomber is a depressed person
depressed by those who came to his land, with no invitation, to steal his land and riches, and kick him and his people out, and treat them like rubbish in their own land
I still don't agree with suicidal operations
but also I think u can't judge such a person when u r living ur life safely and normally
u can't sit in the air condition to classify people as terrorists and peace lovers
*** some one has said that muslims don't go around looking for unbelievers to kill like like the quran has ordered them
The holy Quran never told us such a thing
and actualluy ur misunderstanding is not our fault
or may be it's our fault
but I promise that we will try to correct that as possible
let me explain to u, what the word ( Gihad) means to muslims
first, we have (gihad el nafs), which means to fight against ur weakness and tendency to do sins and disobey God
and this is what prophet Muhammed_ peace be upon him_has called (al Gihad Alakbar) " the biggest Gihad"
second,the word gihad refering to war and fighting the enemy
Actually, muslims r allowed to fight only for 2 reasons:
1)to defend their lands and families against invaders ( the real terrorists)
who neglect all morals of war and even neglect their humanity
and I hope u don't feel amazed by the word ( morals of war)
because Prophet Muhammed has told us not to kill women , children, old men,
and those who don't fight (like farmers), and even not to kill a tree
some one has mentioned the personal weapons against Israil citizens
and I really felt he is not living with us on Earth ( with all respect to him)
becoz killing the citizens, who have nothing to do with war, is the profission of the jews, and not us
haven't u heard of ( qana massacre) in lebanon
or isur media biased to that degree
anyway , this type of Gihad is called (Gihad al daf3)
2)there is another type of gihad, which we call ( gihad al Talab)or (al fotohat)
and its Aim is to show the real Islamto the whole world
because Prophet Muhammed _ peace be upon him_is the last prophet to be sent by allah, to guide people in their darkness
and that's whyit's our duty as muslims to spread his messege to the whole world
and Allah will ask us about that
especially nowadays,
when the media is biased most of the time
and the american movies show muslims either as terrorists,
or as dull people talking in a funny way ( especially Arabs)
*** ABOUT THE VERSES< THERE R THREE POINTS
**ALL THE VERSE OF QURAN TAKING ABOUT GIHAD (FIGHT) R UNDERSTOOD BY MUSLIMS WITHEN THE FRAME OF GIHAD I HAVE PREVIOUSLY EXPLAINED
**THE BAD TRANSLATION
**SOMETIMES U CAN"T MENTION A VERSE WITHOUT THE ONE PREVIOUS TO IT < OR COMING AFTER IT BECAUSE THIS WILL NOT MAKE THE MEANING CLEAR
AND I WILL EXPLAIN THE MISUNDERSTANDIND OF THE VERSE IN MY NEXT MESSEGE IN DETAILS
shema said:
I do. It's my first language.
By the way, i'll come back to this thread later on to reply in details because i'm busy these days a little bit, but i come for short replys from the time to another.
I hope you will read these links below all of you in here. Thank you.
Slay them wherever ye find them "killing the infidel"
Why Muslims scholars never condemn terrorism and fight it?
gnostic
The Lost One
That's the whole problem with Islamic terrorists, today.
They used the Quran and Jihad as a mean of recruiting Muslims. They interpret whatever they like from the Qur'an and Hadith for their cause, whether it has to do with religion or not. Another problem is that see attack (war) on any Arab is an attack on Islam. They are mixing religion with politics.
Islam can't be blamed for them, but it is hard for non-Muslims to see this, because the terrorists do wave their Qur'an, and do use Islam and Allah as their war-cry or whatever you want to call it. Until they stopped doing this, non-Muslims will always have suspicious on Islam, and this is most unfortunate.
The problem is that these terrorists were involved in abduction and execution of few non-Muslim civilian hostages in front of video, continuing to say that are not only doing to this for Iraq, but for Islam; that's something that we have trouble to forget. But who know how many Muslim Iraqi that they killed in the same way.
There's another problem, where the Muslims don't actively support terrorism, and yet some of their comments would seem to sympathise with their causes, by making excuses or justifications.
They used the Quran and Jihad as a mean of recruiting Muslims. They interpret whatever they like from the Qur'an and Hadith for their cause, whether it has to do with religion or not. Another problem is that see attack (war) on any Arab is an attack on Islam. They are mixing religion with politics.
Islam can't be blamed for them, but it is hard for non-Muslims to see this, because the terrorists do wave their Qur'an, and do use Islam and Allah as their war-cry or whatever you want to call it. Until they stopped doing this, non-Muslims will always have suspicious on Islam, and this is most unfortunate.
The problem is that these terrorists were involved in abduction and execution of few non-Muslim civilian hostages in front of video, continuing to say that are not only doing to this for Iraq, but for Islam; that's something that we have trouble to forget. But who know how many Muslim Iraqi that they killed in the same way.
There's another problem, where the Muslims don't actively support terrorism, and yet some of their comments would seem to sympathise with their causes, by making excuses or justifications.
kai
ragamuffin
I think that the terrorist use the Koran in this way, As western troops are in afghanistan and Iraq they say they are attacking muslims so their actions are defensive, the Israelis are attacking muslims so any action against Israel is defensive. so we have the terrorists using Islam but claiming it as defensive ,the ordinary muslim who is not a terrorist but doesnt like to condemn a fellow muslim , and saying "its nothing to do with Islam" mix that with the great satan and anti semitic rewriting of history and we have the world today
maro
muslimah
if u want to see the the real terrorists
check this link, please
http://www.barborana.com/from_the_lebanese_people_to_the.htm
check this link, please
http://www.barborana.com/from_the_lebanese_people_to_the.htm
kai
ragamuffin
maro said:
sorry i got a little way thruogh then had to switch off pictures of dead children make me switch off from what i can see its the same old story blame the west, well i blame the middle east. hezbollah is responsible for the carnage in Lebenon , the solution is stop attacking your neighbour, disband ,if you really want sheeba farms try diplomatic channels to get it, try and get help diplomatically to stop foriegn countries interfering in your country. and thats my recipe for peace
maro
muslimah
about the mis understanding of the verses
in sura 2:
u can't read verse 191 , without 190
and here is the right translation for both verses
with underlining the key words which help us to understand the verse well
"fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but begin no hostilities. Lo ! Allah loveth not , aggressors (90)
and slay them whereever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter, and fight not with them at the invviollable place of worship, untill they first attack you there , but if they attack you ( there) then slay them .such is the reward of disbelievers"
To be continued.....
in sura 2:
u can't read verse 191 , without 190
and here is the right translation for both verses
with underlining the key words which help us to understand the verse well
"fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you but begin no hostilities. Lo ! Allah loveth not , aggressors (90)
and slay them whereever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter, and fight not with them at the invviollable place of worship, untill they first attack you there , but if they attack you ( there) then slay them .such is the reward of disbelievers"
To be continued.....
maro
muslimah
kai said:
I am sorry, but the carnage u have seen is made by the jews in lebanon
and supported by amerika
and hezbollah was defending the lebanon land
and it's Israel who started the fight, and attacked the neighbours, and not hezbollah
or do u have another information about that war ?!!
thank u for great recipe for peace
I wonder why couldn't we think of that before ?!!
